Melee FvS and 9th tier spells; why?

[peterfrosty42]

First things first - this is the spell penetration formula, as I know it. If the sum of (d20 + CasterLevel + SpellPen_Feats + SpellPen_Enhancements + SpellPen_Item) is greater or equal to the mobs Spell Resistance, the spell pierces (this of course doesn’t take into account the possible save a mob may make if the spell has a save component). And let’s also agree that end-game mobs have significant Spell Resistance we must pierce to have our spells stick (even pure offensive casters speced specifically to pierce SR have significant issues piercing SR at end-game).

Regarding Feats - In comparing a ‘caster’ FvSoul (who normally stay pure, for obvious reasons) to a melee-oriented FvSoul, it seems to me that melee-oriented FvSouls are somewhat feat starved. We need invest in an entire 3-feat chain (either TWF or THF) and at least power attack (I see these 4 as an ABSOLUTE minimum). Some will fit in ImprovedCrit so as not to be force into MinII. Regarding MetaMagic feats, I just don’t see building a FvSoul without Quicken, Maximize, & Empower. And how does a melee FvSoul live without extend for the short buffs? And Toughness comes with at least 60HPs (feat + FvSoul enhancements), which is hard to pass up. I’ve seen melee-oriented pure FvSoul builds, but I’ve yet to see one without gaping holes in the feat department. This is IMHO, and your mileage may vary.

Point being, monk and fighter splashes bring needed feat slots to properly flesh out the duality to adding melee capabilities to a caster class. This comes at the cost of spell penetration (1 per splash level). These feats are mostly used for melee feats, or toughness, or metamagics listed above, and NOT on spell penetration feats.

So, given a two level splash and no investment in spell penetration feats (which seems the norm for most melee-oriented FvSoul builds), that’s 6 less spell pen than a ‘caster’ FvSoul, who is already having problems piercing SR in elite/epic end-game content. For example, if the caster FvSoul is getting resisted half the time (piercing on rolls 11-20, missing on 1-10) which is much better than can often be expected at end-game elite/epic, this build will be piercing SR much less (17-20, missing on 1-16). That’s a shift from hitting 10 in 20, to 4 in 20 (%50 to %20). And pure casters passing spell pen at even %50 of casts on end-game elite/epic is probably extremely conservation in this example. In reality, the different is probably much worse (%35 for the pure caster, %5 for the above build).

Here’s a list of the five tier-9 spells, and my thoughts:

Energy Drain -- Must pass the spell penetration check. The pure caster with 6 higher spell penetration already has trouble landing in end-game elite/epic.
Implosion -- Must pass a spell penetration check and Fort save. The pure caster with 6 higher spell penetration already has trouble landing in end-game elite/epic.
Mass Heal -- Slow cast time (almost too slow for mid-fight), and no potency 9; situational, at best
Summon IX -- Hezrou; Situationally handy
True Res -- A more expensive resurrection with, rather than half HPs, heals to full. Meh...

Evidently, I just don’t "get-it" with the NEED to have the 9th tier spell slot. It’s either a spell that will hardly land in end-game elite/epic content (for a melee-oriented build), a summon that’s hard to control & dies rather quickly (while gaining agro you didn't want), a mass heal with a LONG timer & without potency_9, or a resurrection that heals a little more than the equivilant tier 7 resurrection (at the cost of more mana).

If a build splashes and/or doesn't get SpellPen feats, wheres the motivation to NOT splashing down to 17 levels in FvSoul, ditching the entire 9th tier of spells, and gaining two levels of one class and one of another (17/2/1)? To save a spell slot for one of these "gems"?

Enlighten me, please...

[Impatiens]

If a build splashes and/or doesn't get SpellPen feats, wheres the motivation to NOT splashing down to 17 levels in FvSoul, ditching the entire 9th tier of spells, and gaining two levels of one class and one of another (17/2/1)? To save a spell slot for one of these "gems"?

You aren't taking Quicken into account with Mass Heal. It is an awesome spell and I would never give it up.

[Gratch]

My earlier testing on Lama had quicken take mass-heal from 5s to 3s cast time. Did it get better? Do you dual-box on another machine while waiting for that mass heal to go off?

With my multi-class fvs build I went with true-rez as my L9 1) because I dont have the slot for resurrection and 2) because coming back to full health in Abbot/Epic/ToD parts1-3/Shroud p4-5/VoD orthons-bats/eDQ/eDragon might mean you don't have to raise that character a 2nd time when they might otherwise explode from ongoing damage.

[Impatiens]

My earlier testing on Lama had quicken take mass-heal from 5s to 3s cast time. Did it get better? Do you dual-box on another machine while waiting for that mass heal to go off?

You do realize that damage can often be anticipated and Mass Heal can start casting before the larger amounts of damage are taken? For example fighting epic Velah it's pretty much a given that people will take a big spike of damage once they run back in to fight her after running out for the breath. Start casting mass heal as they run in, they get hit, your heal goes off. Sure, it's not as easy to use as insta cast mass cures, but it is an amazingly useful spell when you know how to use it right.

[clanqui]

True res is pretty ridiculously useful. I wouldn't use any other res once I've got it. Leaving aside the situations where someone can take more than half their hp from an attack, not having to cast a heal on top of a rez is more sp efficient and way more time efficient in a tough fight.

Also, a human can take all of the feats you listed with just the monk splash, and an elf or other can take all except extend. Is extend worth giving up the benefits of the extra caster level (including sp, spell pen, and caster level).

[Gratch]

You do realize that damage can often be anticipated and Mass Heal can start casting before the larger amounts of damage are taken? For example fighting epic Velah it's pretty much a given that people will take a big spike of damage once they run back in to fight her after running out for the breath. Start casting mass heal as they run in, they get hit, your heal goes off. Sure, it's not as easy to use as insta cast mass cures, but it is an amazingly useful spell when you know how to use it right.

I asked what you did in between those many seconds of cast time... I usually am swinging for damage. And specifically in your example... you're taking a group that has just been sitting behind a rock (and in theory has full health) and now you're going to over-heal Velah's first AoE with a mass-heal. I find most of her initial AoE's only require mass-cure-mod if that (maximized and 75%'ed via one of the 2 cleric 3min clickies of course).

My main problem is that mass-heal - a mostly full hp bar recharging spell... is mostly useful when everyone's really low on hp's. But then it takes 3s to cast... so unless you're plan is to wait until a lot of people are low hp (and often this means some people are dead) before your mass-heal goes off - you're overhealing or dealing with dead people. Neither of which I find useful.

If mass-heal was a 1s cast with a 30s time-out, I'd be more happy with it than the current state. Right now it can save everyone... but only if they can wait 3s from when you notice they need saving. I guess your point would be - you know when they will need saving 3s before they will need it. My point would be - if you know they're going to need saving - you should have been healing more consistently before that point.

P.S: I should note that mass-heal is a more useful heal option when you're dealing with liches... specifically ones that like to exhaust the party... since the mass-heal thrown once in a while will resolve that issue at the same time.

[Impatiens]

If mass-heal was a 1s cast with a 30s time-out, I'd be more happy with it than the current state.

Probably a lot of people would, but I think people still underestimate it in its current state simply because it's not as easy to use as the other masses.

In fights where it is viable for me to be in there swinging along with the melee, sure, Mass Heal is unnecessary. I am assuming here that the melee FVS in question also wants to be main healing for raids. If you are mostly melee and only support healing than True Resurrection would be a better option than mass heal for reasons that have been outlined by other people in this thread.

While casting Mass Heal I am watching health bars and determining which heal will need to be cast next.

*edit* also Mass heal is more SP efficient to cast assuming you are keeping Maximize on for your cures. Maximized CMWM costs 60 spell points to cast, 70 if you keep quicken on. Quickened Mass Heal also costs 60 spell points to cast and heals for more. Yes it takes good timing to make it work well, but it is very useful.

[Xithos]

I asked what you did in between those many seconds of cast time... I usually am swinging for damage. And specifically in your example... you're taking a group that has just been sitting behind a rock (and in theory has full health) and now you're going to over-heal Velah's first AoE with a mass-heal. I find most of her initial AoE's only require mass-cure-mod if that (maximized and 75%'ed via one of the 2 cleric 3min clickies of course).

My main problem is that mass-heal - a mostly full hp bar recharging spell... is mostly useful when everyone's really low on hp's. But then it takes 3s to cast... so unless you're plan is to wait until a lot of people are low hp (and often this means some people are dead) before your mass-heal goes off - you're overhealing or dealing with dead people. Neither of which I find useful.

If mass-heal was a 1s cast with a 30s time-out, I'd be more happy with it than the current state. Right now it can save everyone... but only if they can wait 3s from when you notice they need saving. I guess your point would be - you know when they will need saving 3s before they will need it. My point would be - if you know they're going to need saving - you should have been healing more consistently before that point.

Qft. I "anticipate" insane amounts of damage in content like epic Zawabi's Revenge and use quickened mass cures because having to raise and rebuff people is annoying.

[Matuse]

Quickened Mass Heal is ungodly strong.

While there isn't any potency, healing enhancements -do- work on it. By far the larger problem is that it has a 6 player target cap, which is annoying if you have to heal 10 people (and it doesn't seem to be very selective to ignore the ones already at full health).

1 second cast with 30 second recast would substantially decrease its utility for me. Would turn it into a downtime recovery spell.

[Gol]

THF feats are hardly required. If you TWF, then those feats are critical as they give you extra attacks and increase your single-target DPS. Same isn't true for THF. They're merely luxury, not required. The only "required" feat for a THF melee FvS is power attack, and maybe Imp Crit if you want to push it.

[sirgog]

I asked what you did in between those many seconds of cast time... I usually am swinging for damage. And specifically in your example... you're taking a group that has just been sitting behind a rock (and in theory has full health) and now you're going to over-heal Velah's first AoE with a mass-heal. I find most of her initial AoE's only require mass-cure-mod if that (maximized and 75%'ed via one of the 2 cleric 3min clickies of course).

My main problem is that mass-heal - a mostly full hp bar recharging spell... is mostly useful when everyone's really low on hp's. But then it takes 3s to cast... so unless you're plan is to wait until a lot of people are low hp (and often this means some people are dead) before your mass-heal goes off - you're overhealing or dealing with dead people. Neither of which I find useful.

If mass-heal was a 1s cast with a 30s time-out, I'd be more happy with it than the current state. Right now it can save everyone... but only if they can wait 3s from when you notice they need saving. I guess your point would be - you know when they will need saving 3s before they will need it. My point would be - if you know they're going to need saving - you should have been healing more consistently before that point.

P.S: I should note that mass-heal is a more useful heal option when you're dealing with liches... specifically ones that like to exhaust the party... since the mass-heal thrown once in a while will resolve that issue at the same time.

If you are running with level capped melees with HP so low that Mass Heal fills them up from close to death, find other melees. My melee cleric isn't filled up by it, and clerics have pretty low HP compared to most classes.

I use quickened, empowered Mass Heal as my most frequently cast healing spell (by far) on my melee-specced Cleric. Even empowered (so it heals for 420 * target's healing amplification, usually 504 for fleshies and 318 on WF) it certainly won't be overhealing much if targets are under 40% hp when it resolves.

Not to mention - if three melees are each at 310 of 660 hp, it's better to spend 66SP on a quickened, empowered Mass Heal and overheal them, than to spend 76 SP on a maximized, empowered, (non-quickened) Superior Ardor 8'ed Mass Cure Critical Wounds and underheal them.


I've solohealed Epic Offering of Blood in a no-bard group (so there's insane incoming damage as no Fascinate, I can think of no other content except TOD part 2 where there's more incoming damage) using (almost) no other healing spells than Mass Heal. 0 mana pots on a no-Bauble toon, and while Heal scrolls were used, it wasn't many and they could have been avoided.

[Spindrake]

I thought 20 FvS about the DR 10 (DR 13-15 possible on WF).

Spells/slots are just icing on the cake-of-damage-reduction. Some people dig the searing light or cure light unlimiteds, but that's a niche market. And too bad +2 Cha is nearly a dump stat :/

Also, WF FvS are more tempted with DR13+, combined with the feeling that just taking the first THF feat is sufficient, leaving you with enough feats to get the metas/toughness, AND you boost PA with enhancements to at least mentally feel that you didn't sacrifice in leaving the other THF feats on the table. Harder sell I agree on a non WF.

[Quikster]

I've solohealed Epic Offering of Blood in a no-bard group (so there's insane incoming damage as no Fascinate, I can think of no other content except TOD part 2 where there's more incoming damage) using (almost) no other healing spells than Mass Heal. 0 mana pots on a no-Bauble toon, and while Heal scrolls were used, it wasn't many and they could have been avoided.

Ive seen good arguments for mass heal, including some by yourself, but this isnt one of them. I run in single healer no bard groups all the time, sometimes as the healer, sometimes as a melee or sorc. We do this all the time with mass cure spells.

I believe I read that mass heal will be hitting 12 people in the next mod. Has anyone been on lamannia and tried this? This change will make the decision tough for me for sure. While i dont have a fvs yet, I have one in the works to be reincarnated from my cleric. Im just finishing out 20th raid timers and trying to get a few more pieces of gear/tomes.

My plan is to do at least one life (the next one) as a wizard to pick up the spell pen missed by the 2 level monk splash. Spell selections have been the biggest issue with me trying to make a build that can "do it all" I plan to mostly focus on meleeing, so Gratch's point about the long casting time really hit home to me, which until now i never thought about much. While many of sirgog's arguements (and a few others, as well as some epic von 6 healing) had swayed me to the mass heal side, Gratch really threw a wrench in that. So for me the question becomes, how am I going to spend most of my time.

I can see myself standing back and playing nanny in say ToD Elite, Abbot Elite, and DQ epic. However I think a lot of the time I want to be in meleeing. I think i may end up with the attitude of if you arent meleeing with me, you might not get healed in many many scenarios.

I see how both spells (mass heal/tr) can be useful, but I think most of it depends on how one plans on playing.

[Impatiens]

I see how both spells (mass heal/tr) can be useful, but I think most of it depends on how one plans on playing.

This is definitely true, both are really good options. I like having Mass Heal personally. I do enjoy being in there meleeing, and when I am I'm using mass cures, not Mass Heal. However, there is a lot of content where it's just more effective to stand back and Heal and that is where Mass Heal shines when you know how to use it well. If they increase the number of targets it hits to 12, all the better

This thread has deviated a lot from "why not go 17/3?" to why or why not Mass Heal is worth while. Regardless of how you feel about Mass Heal, it's pretty evident than there are a couple 9th level spells that can be considered useful for melee FVSs and that's why most don't go 17/3 when they splash monk.

[Twerpp]

If you're melee the possible 10+ dr is really sick. Thats 10 less damage each hit. Over the course of most quests this damage adds up to more than evasion would save you. That's if you are splashing for evasion. If you count free maxed/empowered CLW that's way more HP than evasion can get you.

Let's face it even if you splash and shoot for ac, your ac isn't great in the current game. If your AC is great your DPS is going to be gimped. That's saying a lot because even pure dps build FvS is gimped compared to real melees.

So the 10DR>AC, 10DR>Evasion, and the DPS you gain from a 3 splash is negligible, it would take 6 or more to get somewhat competitive with melee classes. Then you give up more than level 9 spells.

As far as spells for a melee you're right, the level 9 spell list is weak (it's not even that impressive for caster builds, and . Energy Drain is a useful no save that can soften up mobs to beat down or hit with your DC which is probably weak if you truly focused on melee. Summon Furry 9 is neat if you are into that Pokemon Bulls**t. But it's not about the spells, it's about the DR and capstone.

[Impatiens]

If you're melee the possible 10+ dr is really sick. Thats 10 less damage each hit. Over the course of most quests this damage adds up to more than evasion would save you. That's if you are splashing for evasion. If you count free maxed/empowered CLW that's way more HP than evasion can get you.

I think most people splash for the extra feats if they are a TWF build. Evasion is really nice too, though I'm not going to get in that discussion now since it's been done to death in another thread. That's kind of not the point of the thread though since the main question was about why go 18/2 versus 17/3 not why splash versus go pure.

[Twerpp]

Yeah, 18/2 might as well be 17/3 why not. 2 monk doesn't get you a very good weapon selection, 3 monk or 2rog/1barb can get you a little movement speed boost which is probably pretty sick when combined with wings. I just feel FvS is a bit like sorc and don't see the need to splash at all.