The Pulverizor - 20 WF Kensai Warhammer Fighter

[Logic]

Logic: you're correct
The power of a barbarian is that you don't need to spec in a weapon... so you could use Warhammers for trash, and Khopeshes for bosses. (you would just take the -4 to-hit, since Barbs don't have any extra feats)

Exactly. If you're gonna switch around weps situationally then a barb makes more sense. Only time I plan on switching weps is to bypass DR/slashing

In the end:
I did the math a bit ago: your Stunning Blow DC will be slightly lower..but not by much

Except, as far as a stunning blow DC comparison between fighters and barbs go

Fighter +8.5 DC, +12.5 DC when power surged
+1.5 (+3 str enhancements)
+4 (stunning blow enhancements)
+3 kensai
+4 (+8 str power surge, situational)

Barb +2 DC, +10.5 DC when raged/frenzied/death frenzied
+1 (2 str capstone)
+5.5 (11 str rage, 8 and 3 enhancements)
+1 (+2 str frenzy)
+2 (+4 str death frenzy)
+1 (+2 str from frenzied berserker ToD ring)

Fighters power surge lasts 1 minute, barbs rage lasts for about 4 minutes.

So I'd say that the barb has a slight DC advantage over a fighter.

[zed1]

OK, not to rock the boat or anything, but let me throw in my two cents.

The idea that you must focus on warhammers if you are kensai makes no sense. In my experience, actively attempting to stun provides most of the benefit of the feat. In sub-epic content, you would be better served to use a more traditional DPS weapon during the 15 second cool down than to sit around and wait to roll a 20.

As a specific example, my main is a kensai built for khopeshes. When it makes sense, I wield a 5% weighted in my off-hand. I mapped stun to the 'Q' key, and I have become used to hitting it every 15 seconds or so. When it makes sense, I switch to dual wield khopeshes and provide what most consider top-tier DPS.

This style works well for a number of reasons... mostly due to the power of the kensai fighter to be versatile in combat. It has nothing to do with my skill as a player, or my gear setup. Yeah, it is clicky, and probably not for everyone, but in my estimation in increases my DPS by about 25%. Since I am DPS-focused, it is well worth it.

I fully acknowledge that the Pulverizor will be much better in helping the party control and take down the HP bloated epic monsters (which is your focus.) The real question to ask is what this guy does in the other 99% of the content. I'm not trying to be snarky, but wouldn't a party running Sins of Attrition be better served by a caster that spams symbol of stunning/mass hold monster? If the answer is yes, how do you expect to get your TOD ring set?

For what it is worth, I think it is a good build and am not trying to dissuade you. I just think that it is worthwhile to consider building some flexibility into the character.

[Goldeneye]

You know I have a level 20 fighter w/ warhammer spec. I love it. Makes amrath and epic a breeze. In places where enemies have <1000 hp, khopesh makes sense.

Though, I can understand either going barbarian or khopesh fighter. Really goes to your preference.

[Logic]

Really goes to your preference.

Yeah I agree with you, its just preference. I mean the dps difference we're arguing about is pretty small anyhow.

For non-stunnable mobs
2x dps khopeshes would do quite a bit more than 2x dps warhammers. Maybe 20% more dps? Somebody could run the numbers.

For high hp stunnable mobs
I'd imagine a kensai warhammer specced character would do slightly more damage with a mainhand dps warhammer and an offhand 5% weighted warhammer than a khopesh specced character who uses a dps khopesh in the mainhand and a weighted 5% warhammer in the offhand.

For bosses
2x dps khopeshes would obviously beat 2x dps warhammers. But the difference probably isn't as much as people might guess, especially against a 75% fort boss.

[Goldeneye]

Yeah I agree with you, its just preference. I mean the dps difference we're arguing about is pretty small anyhow.

For non-stunnable mobs
2x dps khopeshes would do quite a bit more than 2x dps warhammers. Maybe 20% more dps? Somebody could run the numbers.

Correct. For 0 fort, no DR mobs, my guess is it's around ~20-30%.

For high hp stunnable mobs
I'd imagine a kensai warhammer specced character would do slightly more damage with a mainhand dps warhammer and an offhand 5% weighted warhammer than a khopesh specced character who uses a dps khopesh in the mainhand and a weighted 5% warhammer in the offhand.

On Krythan, I much prefer wielding dual weighted. I NEVER run around with 1 weighted, and a DPS in the other hand. I would much prefer to always be swingin' weighted. Once I have all my gear, I'll crit ~160.... and considering every 15 seconds I can Stunning Blow something, and 1/20 hits stuns the enemy.... I guess that in epic and elite, 1/2 of all the hits I make are crits.... it's ALOT. Before I TR'd, I was khopesh specced, and throwing a weighted warhammer in my off-hand really killed my dps... it's why I TR'd and specced warhammer.

For bosses
2x dps khopeshes would obviously beat 2x dps warhammers. But the difference probably isn't as much as people might guess, especially against a 75% fort boss.

On 0% fort a GS khopesh destroys the DPS of a warhammer. No doubt. When I tried to do the math using the DPS spreadsheet, I'd guess ~20-30%... considering how much of a difference you make on the trash mobs... I was willing to make that trade. My current problem on Krythan is that, though I really like the build, I struggle to permanently invest ingredients into his warhammers.... just on principle GS warhammers are kinda ******. As a result I'm being a cheap a** and using Metaline of pure good: once you remove all the burst effects, and attack a 50% fort mob just as the pit fiend.. the DPS gap between khopesh and warhammer drastically decreases.

Meh, I'm bored. Just a few comments. You already know everything I just said... just adding my 2cp for anyone else following this thread.

[Logic]

Meh, I'm bored. Just a few comments. You already know everything I just said... just adding my 2cp for anyone else following this thread.

Yep we're on the same page with everything you said.

Yeah investing my GS ingredients on a *cough* warhammer seems terrible. I am probably only gonna make an acid/acid/acid earthgrab warhammer (single shard and only 2 large scales). Having acid burst/acid blast to go along with the ~5% DC35 reflex earthgrab (auto crits), 5% weighed offhander, and active stunning blows will be nice. Against high reflex mobs 2x 5% weighed will prob be better, but for most medium content (and low reflex epic) I imagine a GS acid/acid/acid earthgrab + 5% weighed warhammers is a better setup than 2x weighted 5%.

Somebody made a GS warhammer blank and sold it on AH for 100kpp yesterday (I snagged it so now I have no choice, I gotta make a GS warhammer!). I've never seen a GS wep so cheap, very strange.

[Goldeneye]

I've never seen a GS wep so cheap, very strange.

Lol, probly a mistake :P

Your right, earthgrab is cheap, and would increase your damage by a bit. Eventually I'll make some earthgrabs on Krythan.

EDIT: I thought this discussion on the issue was very informative... so I added this thread as a link for additional reading from my Krythan build post.

[Logic]

I was actually thinking a WF 12fighter/6ranger/2rogue (or monk) would be better than pure 20 fighter.

The stunning blow DC would be the same (2 str from ranger spells is the same as +1 DC from kensai III)

Attack speed is the same (10% from tempest is the same as fighter 20 capstone)

And you pick up free ranged combat feats so the char is usable for epic DQ and such.

It is also possible to pick up extend spell + past life paladin for about 15 minutes of +3 hit and damage.

Evasion (thats why WF instead of dwarf with maralith chain)

More skill points for UMD or whatever. Also the ability to use wands.

[Wyrmnax]

I was thinking about this build, and i really like its concept.

Now... thinking always gives me trouble...

The problem of this build is boss DPS, correct? Simply because warhammers are a much poorer choice than kopeshes when theres no stunning involved.

What if you made it a barbarian instead of a fighter?

The thinking is simple:

- Fighter gain a lot of bonus that is weapon-specific because of kensai. Meaning your best DPS weapon will be a warhammer if you are a kensai-warhammer. Even though there are other weapons that have a better base, being a kensai will make warhammers better.

- A Barbarian, on the other hands, has bonuses that work for any weapon that they may wield. So in case of bosses you could switch up the hammers for Picks or Scimitars/Rapiers and keep most of your bonuses.

The problem with the barbarian is the amount of feats. They have 7 avaliable, and 5 are taken up immediately:

Power Attack
Cleave
TWF
GTWF
ITWF

Leaving only 2 to work with. You will want Stunning blow for this build, so that leaves 1. That would be either improved critical: Bludgeon, ICS or piercing, depending on your choice of picks vs scimitar), and Toughness.

Or you could make a Human Barbarian (Crazy though, huh?) and give him IC:B and another

The idea is to keep the stunning/earthgrabbing warhammers on trash, and switch to better DPS weapons on red/purple names. If you do not take IC on your secondary weapon you will likely be stuck with MinII weapons, but they arent bad - just not the best for everything.

[Logic]

I was thinking about this build, and i really like its concept.

Now... thinking always gives me trouble...

The problem of this build is boss DPS, correct? Simply because warhammers are a much poorer choice than kopeshes when theres no stunning involved.

What if you made it a barbarian instead of a fighter?

The thinking is simple:

- Fighter gain a lot of bonus that is weapon-specific because of kensai. Meaning your best DPS weapon will be a warhammer if you are a kensai-warhammer. Even though there are other weapons that have a better base, being a kensai will make warhammers better.

- A Barbarian, on the other hands, has bonuses that work for any weapon that they may wield. So in case of bosses you could switch up the hammers for Picks or Scimitars/Rapiers and keep most of your bonuses.

The problem with the barbarian is the amount of feats. They have 7 avaliable, and 5 are taken up immediately:

Power Attack
Cleave
TWF
GTWF
ITWF

Leaving only 2 to work with. You will want Stunning blow for this build, so that leaves 1. That would be either improved critical: Bludgeon, ICS or piercing, depending on your choice of picks vs scimitar), and Toughness.

Or you could make a Human Barbarian (Crazy though, huh?) and give him IC:B and another

The idea is to keep the stunning/earthgrabbing warhammers on trash, and switch to better DPS weapons on red/purple names. If you do not take IC on your secondary weapon you will likely be stuck with MinII weapons, but they arent bad - just not the best for everything.

Yeah barbs can get very high combat DC's just like fighters. But like you point out they are more feat starved.

Against bosses (especially if high fort) the damage difference between warhammers and khopesh is not as much as most people might expect. And against autocrit stunned trash the crit range doesn't matter either. Warhammer damage isn't terrible, its just less than khopesh. I think this build can work with warhammers, and without switching to a "dps" weapon.

The seeker kensai enhancements really lend itself to a stun build, so that was my thoughts on a fighter. Although a barb would do massive damage as well.

I think the best setup for a stun fighter build is the "WF monster" setup. With 12 fighter 6 ranger and 2 monk (or rogue if you want). This gives plenty of feats, evasion, and high combat DC (the same as a pure 20 fighter). Having bow strength, rapid shot, and multishot is also nice. I don't see any point of a pure 20 fighter over a monster build.

So the real comparison should be between a 20 barb and a monster fighter, not a 20 fighter. And in that respect I think the monster makes a better overall character, even if the damage is slightly less.