Bastard Sword vs. Khopesh

[LookingForABentoBox]

Hold the phone fellers....


As of mod 5, so far as of this post, dwarven axes and bastard swords will allow glancing blow damage, if single wielded with shield, as if it was a two handed weapon.
.

Source?

[MrWizard]

Source?

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=241300

Final breakdown

I'll start the Update Five puzzles with a fairly minor change to combat aimed primarily at shield users, and giving a minor improvement to weapons that dwell in the shadow of the khopesh.

Bastard Swords and Dwarven Waraxes are now as if they were two handed weapons for the purposes of Glancing Blows when they are the only weapon wielded by a proficient user.

Weapon and shield or single weapon styles, but not dual wielding.

Feats or enhancements that affect Glancing Blows (such as the Two Handed Fighting chain, or Great Weapon Aptitude) will also modify these weapons.

They are still treated as one handed weapons for all other purposes, such as strength bonus to damage.

The intent of this change is to give Bastard Swords (and Dwarven Waraxes) an edge - a reason you might want to consider using one of them instead of a Khopesh if you're a sword and shield tank. The glancing blows should make it easier to maintain control of a group of creatures, and as noted by others, there are a lot of effects that currently proc on them.

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Sorry!

,,

[Diib]

That's pretty cool. Always good to increase player options.

[MrWizard]

That's pretty cool. Always good to increase player options.

yea, gotta love it..

of course for thoseof us whp redid our bastard sword toons and sold off all the really good swords to go knopesh...just a few months ago....well..it kinda is dumb they did not at least warn us...

[Wyrmnax]

They are warning you.

With a month or two ahead of time even.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Basties are decent with the right build!
Especially for the mobs that cant be crit.

As mentioned about kopesh, do the same. craft a few tier 1, maybe 2s'
and take advantage of the 2d8 base.
My tempest builds get a 17 - 20 crit range.Granted they wont get to the uber 14 - 20 range, but a dps build will be able to dole out a decent amount of damage.
And my kensai gets it down to 16- 20!

Besides, a human with a 4 foot blade in his hand gets a 10 for style points! (and a 10' threat range)( oh you mean your halfling kopesh weilder has a 4 foot threat range?) lol

[MrWizard]

Basties are decent with the right build!
Especially for the mobs that cant be crit.

As mentioned about kopesh, do the same. craft a few tier 1, maybe 2s'
and take advantage of the 2d8 base.
My tempest builds get a 17 - 20 crit range.Granted they wont get to the uber 14 - 20 range, but a dps build will be able to dole out a decent amount of damage.
And my kensai gets it down to 16- 20!

Besides, a human with a 4 foot blade in his hand gets a 10 for style points! (and a 10' threat range)( oh you mean your halfling kopesh weilder has a 4 foot threat range?) lol

I used to love running around with my dual wielding holy bastard swords...looked like two giant light sabres...

Wish I had not gotten rid of all of them.

[grodon9999]

All the Dwarven S&B tanks are gonna love this, might be time for me to role one . . .

This just completely rocks for the below build:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...89&postcount=5

THF for a great-axe when DPS is needed, S&B for when AC is needed, still getting glancing blows for one-handed? Very sweet.

[Belowme]

Basties are decent with the right build!
Especially for the mobs that cant be crit.

As mentioned about kopesh, do the same. craft a few tier 1, maybe 2s'
and take advantage of the 2d8 base.
My tempest builds get a 17 - 20 crit range.Granted they wont get to the uber 14 - 20 range, but a dps build will be able to dole out a decent amount of damage.
And my kensai gets it down to 16- 20!

Besides, a human with a 4 foot blade in his hand gets a 10 for style points! (and a 10' threat range)( oh you mean your halfling kopesh weilder has a 4 foot threat range?) lol

Do i get +20 for dual wielding them?

I always loved Bastard Swords in PnP so it's an aesthetics thing all the way for me.

[MrWizard]

All the Dwarven S&B tanks are gonna love this, might be time for me to role one . . .

This just completely rocks for the below build:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...89&postcount=5

THF for a great-axe when DPS is needed, S&B for when AC is needed, still getting glancing blows for one-handed? Very sweet.

<looks around for shade...notices he is not here....>
"time to roll that dwarven barbarian who also uses a shield"
<ducks>

[vyvy3369]

<looks around for shade...notices he is not here....>
"time to roll that dwarven barbarian who also uses a shield"
<ducks>

That seems rather unlikely. The more important question would be if this is enough to make Dwarven Axes/Bastard Swords better than Khopeshes, and it actually looks like it does pull it ahead for S&B users. It's still obviously going to be worse DPS than THF, and it should generally be worse than TWF against enemies that matter. Assuming this still holds true (from back in Jan 2009):

This help?
* BAB +0 to +10, Glancing Blow Dmg = Physical Damage / 5 (=20% of physical damage)
* BAB+11 to +15, Glancing Blow Dmg = Physical Damage / 4 (=25% of physical damage)
* BAB+16 to ..., Glancing Blow Dmg = Physical Damage / 3.33 (=30% of physical damage)
* THF feat adds +10 to the secondary Physical Damage roll, before division by the appropriate divisor.
* ImpTHF adds another +20 (total +30) to the secondary Physical Damage roll, before division.

THF is going to have increased damage (1.5x str, higher base damage generally, extra PA) which in turn makes THF glancing blows better, so I just don't see how this could possibly compare unless you really need that extra AC to get into the miss-on-a-2 range.

TWF means roughly twice as many attacks, so you'd need to be fighting somewhere around 3+ enemies for this to pull ahead. I don't recall seeing specific %s about how often effects proc on glancing blows either, but I believe it was on the lower end, so that seems like it would favor TWF which would receive the effects on each hit. It's definitely a much harder decision, since you do get the extra AC & DR, but I think I'll be sticking with TWF.

In regards to vs. Khopesh, and assuming I understand Glancing Blows correctly, they automatically proc on various swings based on which THF Feats you have. At 30% of physical damage (+30 / 3.33 for ~9), it looks to be better than the increase Khopesh gives, at the cost of the 3 THF Feats.

[Emili]

I used to love running around with my dual wielding holy bastard swords...looked like two giant light sabres...

Wish I had not gotten rid of all of them.

I switched to khopeshes a few years ago slowly ... I had well over 60 bastard swords easily - guildies gave me them as I was the only one using them back when. I passed them down from one girl to the next as I switched my main to Khopeshes until then khopeshes finally pushed them out of my alts and down to my niece ... at the time of GH was just a month out she inherrited +4 holys of pgs, tons of greater banes, wounders, smiters and vorpals.

[Emili]

All the Dwarven S&B tanks are gonna love this, might be time for me to role one . . .

This just completely rocks for the below build:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...89&postcount=5

THF for a great-axe when DPS is needed, S&B for when AC is needed, still getting glancing blows for one-handed? Very sweet.

Does seem to give Dwarven melee an edge in adjusting to more melee situations then other races. Quite frankly possibly moreso.

Is quite notable at this time Dwarf axes are pretty much common on par with usage on Dwarves as Khopeshes bloody may be where DPS be at ... Khopesh costs a feat on a dwarf thus Dwarven dual weilding tempest, Kensai commonly use dwarf axes now as it is... I know many a dwarf spec'd khopesh pull out the dwarven axe in epics... What's interesting here is many people who do not know much about THF and it's glacnes seem to think such is too little... Tell me, have you ever seen a Full blow berzerker with great axe in hand from the keyboard end? Glances seem to go off constanty for me and the procs are very commonplace ... what is intheresting is even things like banishmentm disruption and smitting proc off a glance - so it seems to me - at those levels where things occur.

... in conclusion it is nice of the devs to help the dwarven axe and bastard sword - yet I cannot help but wonder if the player base will end up feeling the dwaven axe now surpasses the bastardsword and even moreso under the proposed. Is obvious no dwarf would take bastard sword proficiency ... gthf chain and they have the best of two (three) worlds - GTHF greataxe, drop and done a shield when under pressure and use you Dwarf axe and come throwing - the returning axe cannot be beat among returners. Even as a WF or Human I would think more apt to spec in Dwarf axe on my barb in comparison to a bastardsword if I ever used a shield... moreso on a gthf fighter.

[RoboVanguard]

I think there is one point that hasn't been mentioned thus far (and it probably deserves some mention). This is that bastard swords might not do more damage than khopeshes to crit immune creatures. Why? Because while rolling a confirmed critical against an undead or construct does not result in increased physical damage (you don't apply that x3 or x2 to your 1d8+str mod or 1d10+str mod), any burst/blast/slaying effects will still proc. For example, if you roll a crit on a khopesh with holy burst, you do 1d8+str mod + 2d6 good + 4d6 good, and a bastard sword will deal 1d10+str mod + 2d6 + 3d6 good. For flaming/icy/acid/shocking burst/blast, that is a 1d10 to 2d10 upgrade, which is quite significant compared to the 0-2 extra damage a bastard sword may deal.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Honestly, if u have a good build going on.....u will be ok.

There is no doubt that the Khopesh is superior, but it's not like ur swinging a light mace or something.

If u like bastard swords...stay with them, if u wanna be the highest possible dps u can be, swap to khopesh.

If ur a pure Fighter with all those feats u get...heck, just take both proficiencies.

[Tovenar]

That seems rather unlikely. The more important question would be if this is enough to make Dwarven Axes/Bastard Swords better than Khopeshes, and it actually looks like it does pull it ahead for S&B users. It's still obviously going to be worse DPS than THF, and it should generally be worse than TWF against enemies that matter. Assuming this still holds true (from back in Jan 2009):

THF is going to have increased damage (1.5x str, higher base damage generally, extra PA) which in turn makes THF glancing blows better, so I just don't see how this could possibly compare unless you really need that extra AC to get into the miss-on-a-2 range.

TWF means roughly twice as many attacks, so you'd need to be fighting somewhere around 3+ enemies for this to pull ahead. I don't recall seeing specific %s about how often effects proc on glancing blows either, but I believe it was on the lower end, so that seems like it would favor TWF which would receive the effects on each hit. It's definitely a much harder decision, since you do get the extra AC & DR, but I think I'll be sticking with TWF.

In regards to vs. Khopesh, and assuming I understand Glancing Blows correctly, they automatically proc on various swings based on which THF Feats you have. At 30% of physical damage (+30 / 3.33 for ~9), it looks to be better than the increase Khopesh gives, at the cost of the 3 THF Feats.

I'm fairly sure the glancing blows + weapon procs ONLY apply to bastard swords and dwarven axes when you are wielding them with nothing or a shield in your offhand. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Chai]

<looks around for shade...notices he is not here....>
"time to roll that dwarven barbarian who also uses a shield"
<ducks>

If dwarven defender PRE comes out, it just MIGHT be that time!

An 18 barb 2 fighter would make an awesome tank with intim and ability to build some hate. Need to dps? Drop the defender stance, rage, toss in a great ax, and you are in there....

....like swim wear.

The dex requirement wont be so huge like a TWF tank, because you are THF. Yeah 7 mod is nice to hit for max AC when in armor and stanced, but you can get away with 6 mod until you get an exceptional 2 dex item, and toss those points into cha for less butt ugliness which helps intimidate and will save if feat invested. (oh the irony). - not to mention everyones favorite fighter topic, UMD! (/fires up the get away music and runs straight legged as yakety sax plays in the background).

[DethTrip]

I myself have always loved the look of having a sword and a half in each hand. I am currently in the same predicament as you. I have a lvl16 that is just getting ready to make a GS weapon and I am seriously thinking I will have to switch to kopesh for the **** x3 multiplier.

I just think about this:
10x2 = 20 or 8 x 3 = 24. +4 damage using just the base weapon damage x crit multi. Then if you add a bloodstone which gives 6 BEFORE multiplier you have:
16x2 = 32 or 14x3 = 42. +10 more damage right there. Now you add say +8 for str, then you have:
24x2 = 48 or 22x3 = 66. +18 damage.

As you can see, the numbers climb very quickly. The added crit damage of the kopesh far outweighs the possible +2 bastard damage to non critable targets imo. I really REALLY love the way my bastard swords look but I'm afraid I'm just going to have to switch for the added damage output. *sniffle*

[MrWizard]

I myself have always loved the look of having a sword and a half in each hand. I am currently in the same predicament as you. I have a lvl16 that is just getting ready to make a GS weapon and I am seriously thinking I will have to switch to kopesh for the **** x3 multiplier.

I just think about this:
10x2 is 20 or 8 x 3 = 24. +4 damage using just the base weapon damage x crit multi. Then if you add a bloodstone which gives 6 BEFORE multiplier you have:
16x2 = 32 or 14x3 = 42. +10 more damage right there. Now you add say +8 for str, then you have:
24x2 = 48 or 22x3 = 66. +18 damage.

As you can see, the numbers climb very quickly. The added crit damage of the kopesh far outweighs the possible +2 bastard damage to non critable targets imo. I really REALLY love the way my bastard swords look but I'm afraid I'm just going to have to switch for the added damage output. *sniffle*

well, do not forget you can still wield both, just one weapon will be at -4 to hit and that is all that is affected I believe. (maybe combat dcs too).

Go with either one and build both.


This update 5 listing about the d-axe and b-sword was only the first hint of what they are doing...there may be much more to come (hopes).

[Emili]

If dwarven defender PRE comes out, it just MIGHT be that time!

An 18 barb 2 fighter would make an awesome tank with intim and ability to build some hate. Need to dps? Drop the defender stance, rage, toss in a great ax, and you are in there....

....like swim wear.

The dex requirement wont be so huge like a TWF tank, because you are THF. Yeah 7 mod is nice to hit for max AC when in armor and stanced, but you can get away with 6 mod until you get an exceptional 2 dex item, and toss those points into cha for less butt ugliness which helps intimidate and will save if feat invested. (oh the irony). - not to mention everyones favorite fighter topic, UMD! (/fires up the get away music and runs straight legged as yakety sax plays in the background).

Barb intimidate skill is also a debuff... and at 6 skill points for the class easily maintained with more than plenty for other skills... Dwarf PrE enablement is yet in the works and req's may even support 18 barb 1 fighter 1 rogue on a Dwarf? Hard to tell ... but the intimi/umd and skill set would be wicked...