2 quick questions: non-rogues with DD, and shield use

[Impatiens]

So just to make sure I am understanding this, once you take a class that has the skill, you no longer need to take that class? That is, taking the class once makes it so that skill set is no longer cross class regardless of which class you are leveling up as?

Sounds like it's time for a reroll, this character seems to be a waste, and that just makes me feel sick

=/

A rogue is certainly not a waste, they can bring a lot to the table besides just trapmonkeying. But if the only reason you want to play a rogue is for traps then you may be happier with a rogue splash build.

You still need to spend 2 skill points in cross class skills. So that wiz/rogue is spending two points in disable device every level. He has a lot of int so he can afford to do that. It's more difficult to keep cross class skills maxed on lower int characters.

[gavagai]

Sounds like it's time for a reroll, this character seems to be a waste, and that just makes me feel sick

It doesn't sound to me like your character needs a reroll as much as a "re-think." All you really need to do is swap out a few feats, take TWF feats and Toughness, and start learning about the diverse abilities your character has. You'll want to focus on HP-boosting and STR/DEX-boosting gear.

Your character is not defined by one skill it does well, but by its diverse abilities. You have all of the abilities of every rogue: the evasion, the sneak attack dice, the broad skill layout, the potential for the best special feats in the game. Any character can do any one skill well; but a good character is one that does many things in a satisfying way, and your character can probably do a lot more than you know.

That said, its a pity the Turbine paths made Mechanics start with such a low CON and STR; those are reasons alone for a reroll for many players.

[Corebreach]

So just to make sure I am understanding this, once you take a class that has the skill, you no longer need to take that class? That is, taking the class once makes it so that skill set is no longer cross class regardless of which class you are leveling up as?

As far as the maximum number of ranks you can have in it at any given level, yes.

As far as whether 1 skill point buys you 1 rank or 0.5 ranks, no.

Example: Create a rogue. Your level 1 rank max in DD is 4, and each skill point buys one full rank. At level 2, multiclass into Wizard. Your rank max in DD is 5 because you previously took a level in something where it wasn't cross-class. But DD is cross-class for your latest level, so each skill point buys only half a rank and you have to spend two points to keep the skill maxed out.

[Ybbald]

How much can a wiz get?

20 start (drow)
+5 raises
+6 item
+2 tome
+2 exceptional
+3 wiz int enhancements
+2 int pot
=40
+15 int bonus

DD skill:
23 trained ranks
+15 int
+7 tools
+4 Greater heroism
+2 rogue skill boost (only tier available for 18/2 split)
+2 head of good fortune (or +1 if you grabbed a stone of good luck or prayer clickie)
+15 item
+1 Rogue DD I
+3 ventilated bracers
+2 bard song
+2 nimble fingers (wizards aren't starved for feats w/ all their bonus feats. At least I would think so. I've never played on)
+3 skill focus: DD
=79

That's just a tiny bit away from epic VON5 DCs
The problem would be the 82 search needed since no +7 from tools
But then you have drow enhancements to search you can max
and +2 search for drow and +1 trap search scroll
and I probably missed a thing or two. But then skill focus: search would be a third feat used O_o

Also for epic DC, you can subtract 4 cause if you roll 1-4 and fail, you can just try again. You just gotta avoid crit failing

[Anderei]

take another +3 for human versality (yes a human is as good as a drow, altough staring int drops by 2, you get 1 from adoption and one can get another +1 exceptional which stacks with +2) its +3 in total since you loose from the +5 the +2 rogue boost.

[Ybbald]

Adoption?

[Anderei]

Adoption?

adaption

[Lleren]

So just to make sure I am understanding this, once you take a class that has the skill, you no longer need to take that class? That is, taking the class once makes it so that skill set is no longer cross class regardless of which class you are leveling up as?

Sounds like it's time for a reroll, this character seems to be a waste, and that just makes me feel sick

=/

Not quite.

It istill a cross class skill for skill point cost. Still spending 1 skill point and getting 0.5 ranks.
It is not a cross class skill for max ranks. No longer max ranking at 11.5, but instead at 23, at level 20.

[ArdanosMerrow]

To the OP: I am currently 13wiz/2rog and have found that I have higher DD and search than every rog I group with aside from those that are several lvls higher than me. This is mainly do to planning and having 32 int which no rog in his right mind would attempt.

This doesn't mean that wiz/rog is better, since I can't assassinate things, become a woodchipper (dual wield), add stat damage to every strike, or do +10d6 sneak attack damage. You just have to realize that traps are a small part of what a rog is really good at and not very essential to ddo.

With all your feats focused on traps, and possibly starting stats that may not be ideal, you should consider making a new char or respec the one you have (costly though). Just spend some time researching builds in these forums for ideas AND understanding WHY people use them. Knowing why people use certain builds (dps, high DR, solo ability, etc) will let you understand ways to design a character that is useful and something you have FUN playing.

How much can a wiz get?
...
+2 nimble fingers (wizards aren't starved for feats w/ all their bonus feats. At least I would think so. I've never played on)
+3 skill focus: DD

Actually, imo since you lose a metamagic feat from multi-class and take insightful reflexes to benefit from evasion, wiz/rog is rather feat starved. Adding additional feats and spending the mentioned AP's would just cripple you as a wizzy (prob as bad as being a mechanic feat focused rog).

[PopeJual]

The person in question was a level 1 rogue, level 10 wizard. Now it feels like a slap in the face that someone can detect secret doors with a click of a spell, out damage me with flame wall, then disable all the devices to boot? How exactly does one pull off having such a high rank in that skill while being forced to cross class it. So if you go through your first 10 levels as being a wizard, then decide "woot I will take 1 level of rogue" you can end up dumping 100% of your skill points that level into disable device.

The real problem with your objection is thinking that the level 10 Wizard suddenly woke up one morning and decided, "I'd like to disarm traps today!"

What actually happened is that the Wizard started out life as the smartest Rogue that you will ever meet in your entire life. After a level of Rogue, he branched out into Wizarding, but he dedicated considerable effort into maintaining his Rogue skills during EVERY Wizard level thereafter.

Wizards get 2 skill points + Int modifier. With 18 Int, a Wizard gets 6 skill points. That's enough to keep Search, Disable Device and Use Magic Device maxed out. The Wizard won't have 20 Int (for just 7 skill points) until level 8 unless he eats a Tome of Int.


...oh, wait, did you want to have any Concentration? Did you want to put anything into Balance? Did you want to Spot at all so that you can target hiding enemies? Did you want to Open any Locks without the Knock spell? Sorry, that's just not going to happen without putting yourself at a severe disadvantage in trapbusting.

Also, that Wizard is getting spells as if he were a Sorcerer with fewer spell points. He gets Haste at level 6 instead of level 5. He gets Firewall at level 8 instead of level 7. All of his spells are cast at one lower level than his fellows and he has one less Spell Penetration on every spell forever. This gets doubled whenever he takes a step back into Roguedom for that second level to get Evasion.

[ArdanosMerrow]

Also, that Wizard is getting spells as if he were a Sorcerer with fewer spell points. He gets Haste at level 6 instead of level 5. He gets Firewall at level 8 instead of level 7. All of his spells are cast at one lower level than his fellows and he has one less Spell Penetration on every spell forever. This gets doubled whenever he takes a step back into Roguedom for that second level to get Evasion.

I really didn't touch on this since it is a wiz concern, not rog, but I entirely agree. Waiting 2 more lvls to get next lvl spells is horrid as well as the loss to sp and spell effectiveness. So the Wiz is definately sacrificing to be able to do traps.

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

As some others mentioned, traps are not a rogue's big advantage--ridiculous SA DPS is.

You want trap skills? Splash rogue. If you make a full rogue, you are getting some other major benefits.

[ristretto93]

With my rogue, wearing the right shield can turn me from a DPS 2wf to an ac tank able to hold agro. If you are skirting that AC line like I do, why not keep a shield for those nervous moments when the main tank falls and people start scrambling? Gather the agro and save the situation.

This is worth 1 backpack slot for a shield in reserve, but...

...a feat? Only if you take it with the intention of either respecing it later or if your rogue tanks often (which maybe isnt the most ideal, but a sneak attacking rogue sure can catch agro via damage even with 1 weapon if they want to). I have a strong feeling that a rogue using 1 weapon is close to keeping up with two weapon fighters damage wise pretty well until at least ITWF feat is achieved, making it practical to wear a shield more often...especially when you cannot sneak attack anyway (i.e. undead). I didnt stop using S&B as my main set up until I got GTWF, but then I had been the main tank in a static party or soloing alot. S&B rogue plays smooth and very survivable through L8 to L10ish, but not much later than that it seems to sacrifice too much damage output that comes from the 2wf upgrades.

Of course, thats just me...