2 quick questions: non-rogues with DD, and shield use

[Atnasomus]

Recently I have been grouping with folks that have had some really ridiculously high disable device. At level 11, the person made a check with a +39 bonus to his roll, and here's the issue I have with that.

The person in question was a level 1 rogue, level 10 wizard. Now it feels like a slap in the face that someone can detect secret doors with a click of a spell, out damage me with flame wall, then disable all the devices to boot? How exactly does one pull off having such a high rank in that skill while being forced to cross class it. So if you go through your first 10 levels as being a wizard, then decide "woot I will take 1 level of rogue" you can end up dumping 100% of your skill points that level into disable device. That's because the cap on any skill is lvl + 3, and I imagine a wizard will have enough int to pull off 18+ int so that's a lot of points. Suddenly I wonder if this is actually just better than my build as pure rogue trap monkey. I'm sure towards the end game this wizard will not be able to handle the tougher stuff, but still it sure is frustrating. If anyone has some info on non-rogue that function better than rogues at being rogue, I sure wish I knew about it. It also makes me sad that my character that specialized to be a trap monkey was being outdone. Granted, I don't have much support from my gear for bonuses to DD, but I did take skill focus/nimble fingers/mechanic specialty so I guess I just assumed I would fare better than anyone who multiclassed. The wizard was 1 level higher than me, but still, *** =/

One final unrelated question- using a shield

Is it worth taking the feat to negate the -1 armor check penalty that you would take on your attacks? If that is seriously the only draw back... I would basically be taking the feat for that sole purpose. I am thinking that it's not really worth it, especially since rogues don't get a slew of feats to choose from. Any thoughts or feedback is appreciated.

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Just for reference here is my current feat selection for this rogue
nimble fingers, skill focus disable device, weapon finesse. skill focus search, shield prof (general)

I was thinking of dropping shield prof in favor of skill focus umd, but I'm not sure yet, as my question describes.
Also my Disable device at lvl 10 is around 30 or 31 before bonuses from kits.

[Anderei]

Well any rogue splash can be made to be as good a trap disabler than a pure rogue. Thats why a pure "mechanic" build on rogue is always a bad idea. A rogues strength is the crazy sneakattack damage s/he can do, the traps are a plus, not the base of the class.

Yes, a well planned wizard with one or two levels rogue can be just as good trapdisabler than you! But highlight *well planned* You cannot as you said take 10 levels of wizard and then take a rogue level, this will not work, as with any multiclass you have to plan it from the beginning. You must take the rogue level as first level with max INT, take insightful reflexes and then go wizard on level 2 up until level 10, then take a second rogue level for evasion, and another 10 wizard levels up to the cap.

Let me guess you took the "mechanic" path from turbine? And you got 10 Constitution on start? This is bad :-(

Besides the wizard (which is pretty popular), did you know, you can do the same with the cleric? Can do any traps in the game (aside from VON5 epic) and heal, and cast bladebarrier and the stuff: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=230165

[Impatiens]

You take the rogue level first and then put two skill points in the cross class skill at every level up. Take a second rogue level later for evasion and to bump up any skills you missed while the other class. With high int classes like a Wizard it's really easy to keep necessary skills maxed even when they are cross class.

[gavagai]

The take-away message is simple:

Disabling traps is not a feature of any class, but a skill set. You only need 1 level of rogue to unlock the skills.

Similarly, arcane buffing and healing aren't caster only features; a pure rogue with a high UMD can hit the party with Stoneskins, Blurs, Heals, and Recitations.

So don't think that you take rogue levels to be a better trapsmith, per se; you take them for more skills, better saves versus traps, greater sneak attack damage, Improved Evasion and Crippling Strike (among other things).

Many of these (many skills points/level, higher saves, Improved Evasion) synergize with the role of a trapsmith. Any rogue can "easily" manage most of the traps in the game without special build design, as long as you use what you get naturally.

The great synergies with a Wizard/Rogue trapsmith are different from the synergies that pure rogues get: high INT = high Search/Disable (but no enhancements), and with Insightful Reflexes they will have a pretty good reflex save (but no Trap Sense bonus and no Improved Evasion).

You'll hear on the forums that most builds that focus solely on trapmonkeying are ineffectual, since you only spend less than 5% of the game dealing with traps. While you may not find that true, I think its a good idea to focus on developing your other rogue abilities -- particularly by getting Two Weapon FIghting and training your Sneak Attack Training and Accuracy lines. Your best defense isn't a shield, but tactics: only attack an enemy when its attacking someone else! Get used to sneak attacking, and you'll take enemies out faster than any Wall of Fire.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

In this game rogues are DPS, not trapsmiths. The do traps, but it isn't the reason to be a rogue.

As for a shield...put the shield down, take TWF, NOW you are a rogue.

[SableShadow]

I'm sure towards the end game this wizard will not be able to handle the tougher stuff

You think wrong. He's going to have a very, very high Int at endgame, and more than enough feats to grab trapstuff w/o seriously impacting the damage portion of his build.

He won't hit epics (maaaaaybe) because of the boost+enhancement+PrE setup that's required to hit those DCs...on the other hand, people are not exactly beating a path to those epics that require these traps to be disarmed.

One final unrelated question- using a shield

Is it worth taking the feat to negate the -1 armor check penalty that you would take on your attacks?

No. If you find it bothersome, just use shields that don't have an armor check penalty (e.g. Mithral, Darkwood).

[Impatiens]

He won't hit epics (maaaaaybe) because of the boost+enhancement+PrE setup that's required to hit those DCs...on the other hand, people are not exactly beating a path to those epics that require these traps to be disarmed.

Fortunately the only epic that really requires the traps to be disarmed right now is VoN5 and who the heck does VoN5 on Epic when you can just do it on normal and then hop in to VoN6 on epic afterward?

[SableShadow]

Fortunately the only epic that really requires the traps to be disarmed right now is VoN5 and who the heck does VoN5 on Epic when you can just do it on normal and then hop in to VoN6 on epic afterward?

We've done successful eVoN5's w/o disarming a single trap, and eVoN5's disabling everything...the difference was about 20 minutes. On the other hand, you can spend 90 to 120 minutes in eVoN 5, or you can run eVoNs 1-3 in the same length of time, more easily, with shorter group formation time, for three tokens instead of the two you get out of eVoN 5...

eChains might be the only one requiring stuff disabled, but then again, maybe not.

eChains wasn't all that popular to begin with compared to eoob or ewk, but if people ran it a lot I'd wager they'd find ways around all those traps as well.

[kamimitsu]

Keep in mind as well that that +39 includes lots of other things:

7 for tools (+5 tools grant a +7 total modifier)
10 for Disable Item (at level 11 probably a +10 item)
7 for Wiz's extremely high INT (24 INT = +7, might be more/less)
4 Greater Heroism (Wiz can self-cast it)
______________
28

So about 24-28 of that is non-skill points stuff. A side effect of the high INT Wizard is that he has a LOT of skill points to dole out, enough to cross class most of his rogue stuff (assuming he starts with rogue and plays 'catch-up' when he takes is 2nd rogue level around 10). Planned correctly, a Wiz/Rog will often do better at traps than a pure rogue.

I'm not going to go in too deeply as to why you won't need all the trapmonkey feats you proposed, as it's been done to death in these forums. Sufficed to say you'll be able to get all but the infamous "Cabal for One" trap, the "Sunken Parish" traps, and Epic traps without them. If, however, you MUST get every trap in the game, then go for it.

My recommendation for feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus:UMD (or Toughness), Improved Crit:Pierce, Improved TWF, Greater TWF

Traps are secondary to fighting in this game, and most are just an annoyance for parties. No need to focus on them. (And here I said I wouldn't go in to why trapmonkey feats blah blah blah!)

[Wyrmnax]

Traps are a very small part of DDO, and any rogue splash can deal with them. Mostly because the biggest thing for traps is the bonus you get from gear and buffs, not your rank in the skill. Deal with it. The main rogue strenght is the damage it can do and having evasion, not dealing with traps.

As a rogue you should not be wearing a shield. You should instead invest on dual wielding. A shield bonus to AC will be useful only for the first few levels, and it definitely isnt worth the feat investment.

Late in the game you may find yourself using a shield again, but this time solely for the purpose of blocking DR. Again, the lack of a feat wont bother you at all.

[Phidius]

...I'm sure towards the end game this wizard will not be able to handle the tougher stuff, but still it sure is frustrating. If anyone has some info on non-rogue that function better than rogues at being rogue, I sure wish I knew about it. It also makes me sad that my character that specialized to be a trap monkey was being outdone. Granted, I don't have much support from my gear for bonuses to DD, but I did take skill focus/nimble fingers/mechanic specialty so I guess I just assumed I would fare better than anyone who multiclassed. The wizard was 1 level higher than me, but still, *** =/

At end game, a properly well-built wizard with a rogue splash will be a better trap monkey than a properly built rogue. To understand this, though, you have to understand how to properly build a rogue. Here's a hint - build your rogue to deal massive damage, not to disable traps.

The difference is that a wizard doesn't have to invest very much, while a rogue has to make huge sacrifices by comparison.

[Corebreach]

How exactly does one pull off having such a high rank in that skill while being forced to cross class it.

The max rank rules are different in DDO than in PnP. Here, as soon as you take one level of any class that gets the skill cheaply, the maximum ranks formula permanently changes to (character level + 3) for that skill. If you then spend the rest of your character's career in classes that get that skill cross-class, you can still buy a full rank every level, though it will cost you two skill points instead of one.

So if you go through your first 10 levels as being a wizard, then decide "woot I will take 1 level of rogue" you can end up dumping 100% of your skill points that level into disable device. That's because the cap on any skill is lvl + 3, and I imagine a wizard will have enough int to pull off 18+ int so that's a lot of points.

He probably created the character as a level 1 rogue and multiclassed into Wizard at 2, spending two skill points per level each on Search, DD, and OL, plus whatever Wizzies need.

[Atnasomus]

The max rank rules are different in DDO than in PnP. Here, as soon as you take one level of any class that gets the skill cheaply, the maximum ranks formula permanently changes to (character level + 3) for that skill. If you then spend the rest of your character's career in classes that get that skill cross-class, you can still buy a full rank every level, though it will cost you two skill points instead of one.

So just to make sure I am understanding this, once you take a class that has the skill, you no longer need to take that class? That is, taking the class once makes it so that skill set is no longer cross class regardless of which class you are leveling up as?

Sounds like it's time for a reroll, this character seems to be a waste, and that just makes me feel sick

=/

[kamimitsu]

So just to make sure I am understanding this, once you take a class that has the skill, you no longer need to take that class? That is, taking the class once makes it so that skill set is no longer cross class regardless of which class you are leveling up as?

Sounds like it's time for a reroll, this character seems to be a waste, and that just makes me feel sick

=/

Not quite. It opens up the MAX ranks for that skill, but you still have to spend double points to raise it by 1 if it is cross class for the level you are taking.

[Anderei]

nimble fingers, skill focus disable device, weapon finesse. skill focus search, shield prof (general)

To add, with this feats, I would suggest a reroll, only feat that is a good pick is weapon finesse on a dex build, any others of these: not so good idea.

[Ybbald]

How much can a wiz get?

20 start (drow)
+5 raises
+6 item
+2 tome
+2 exceptional
+3 wiz int enhancements
+2 int pot
=40
+15 int bonus

DD skill:
23 trained ranks
+15 int
+7 tools
+4 Greater heroism
+2 rogue skill boost (only tier available for 18/2 split)
+2 head of good fortune (or +1 if you grabbed a stone of good luck or prayer clickie)
+15 item
+1 Rogue DD I
+3 ventilated bracers
+2 bard song
+2 nimble fingers (wizards aren't starved for feats w/ all their bonus feats. At least I would think so. I've never played on)
+3 skill focus: DD
=79

That's just a tiny bit away from epic VON5 DCs
The problem would be the 82 search needed since no +7 from tools
But then you have drow enhancements to search you can max
and +2 search for drow and +1 trap search scroll
and I probably missed a thing or two. But then skill focus: search would be a third feat used O_o

Also for epic DC, you can subtract 4 cause if you roll 1-4 and fail, you can just try again. You just gotta avoid crit failing

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

As some others mentioned, traps are not a rogue's big advantage--ridiculous SA DPS is.

You want trap skills? Splash rogue. If you make a full rogue, you are getting some other major benefits.

[Impatiens]

So just to make sure I am understanding this, once you take a class that has the skill, you no longer need to take that class? That is, taking the class once makes it so that skill set is no longer cross class regardless of which class you are leveling up as?

Sounds like it's time for a reroll, this character seems to be a waste, and that just makes me feel sick

=/

A rogue is certainly not a waste, they can bring a lot to the table besides just trapmonkeying. But if the only reason you want to play a rogue is for traps then you may be happier with a rogue splash build.

You still need to spend 2 skill points in cross class skills. So that wiz/rogue is spending two points in disable device every level. He has a lot of int so he can afford to do that. It's more difficult to keep cross class skills maxed on lower int characters.

[gavagai]

Sounds like it's time for a reroll, this character seems to be a waste, and that just makes me feel sick

It doesn't sound to me like your character needs a reroll as much as a "re-think." All you really need to do is swap out a few feats, take TWF feats and Toughness, and start learning about the diverse abilities your character has. You'll want to focus on HP-boosting and STR/DEX-boosting gear.

Your character is not defined by one skill it does well, but by its diverse abilities. You have all of the abilities of every rogue: the evasion, the sneak attack dice, the broad skill layout, the potential for the best special feats in the game. Any character can do any one skill well; but a good character is one that does many things in a satisfying way, and your character can probably do a lot more than you know.

That said, its a pity the Turbine paths made Mechanics start with such a low CON and STR; those are reasons alone for a reroll for many players.

[Corebreach]

So just to make sure I am understanding this, once you take a class that has the skill, you no longer need to take that class? That is, taking the class once makes it so that skill set is no longer cross class regardless of which class you are leveling up as?

As far as the maximum number of ranks you can have in it at any given level, yes.

As far as whether 1 skill point buys you 1 rank or 0.5 ranks, no.

Example: Create a rogue. Your level 1 rank max in DD is 4, and each skill point buys one full rank. At level 2, multiclass into Wizard. Your rank max in DD is 5 because you previously took a level in something where it wasn't cross-class. But DD is cross-class for your latest level, so each skill point buys only half a rank and you have to spend two points to keep the skill maxed out.