TR Rogue

[PowerOfRaistlin]

I think we all agree that rogue is a massive source of both utility and dps. So much free damage from sneak attack is a wonderful utility that is rarely overcome. I've been considering TR'ing my rogue for quite some time and looked at a number of specs of multi class from Tempest & Monk splash to trap monkey for Von 5 Epic (Lulz). The biggest thing that I get hung up on is losing Asn 3. It is my bread and butter and I absolutely love it! Vorpal attacks on nearly EVERY weapon as well as more dmg (as if we needed that) simply outshines anything else I can see. For me, the only purpose to TRing would be even MORE dmg for the past life passive (zomg potential 14d6 SA).

As such, I was looking to discuss why anyone would want to give up Assassin 3! A well built Asn 3 can still push 400+ hp end game and have the to hit and damage to rival any melee dps spot as well as be backup for buffs/heals/etc. So feel free to /discuss. I will do my best to keep up with the thread though atm I am very busy IRL.

[Durion]

First off, losing Assassin III would just be temporary. I TR'd my rogue for the DPS boost he'll receive. Assassin III does have a drawback though, if you're capped, you may be running Epic, as I was. Sadly, in Epic, mobs have Deathblock.

I will be running back up to at least 18 to get it back, but I'm not sure where I'm going after that, hopefully I'll have it figured out by the time I get there.

However, even with the loss of Assassin III in Epic, using a Rad III weapon + my new backstab bonus, I have high hopes for him yet.

But yes, Ass III is very nice, but again, TRing him you will be able to get it back if you want it.

[Lithic]

Keep in mind that the +1 to sneak damage from the passive rogue past life is currently not being applied. My rogue Star has been TR'd 4 times already, and never have I seen the extra +1 to damage from my past life: rogue. Currently as a 2 rogue/15wizard, I still only get +1d6 sneak damage (rather than +1d6+1).

[SableShadow]

As such, I was looking to discuss why anyone would want to give up Assassin 3!

I've had Assassin III for a long while, then I realized that, while it is fun to vorp stuff w/ greensteel, it doesn't do anything for reds/purples/anything w/ deathward...and I can buy the vorp ability off the AH for less than the cost of 1 large devil scale.

It might be more attractive to me once I pick up a Litany, or if they fix the crit damage vs seeker stacking.

YMMV.

[PowerOfRaistlin]

fair enough that there is a lot 18+ that you can't vorp. but it's less the point of being able to vorp without using vorp and more so even the increase to damage from the whole line pre reqs and all. it sucks that the past life is broken (GJ Turbine!). Anywho as far as clearing trash mobs and maintaining a high dps class, I just cant see where Assassin 3 is worth giving up. The advantages it gives in my humble opinion far outweigh the draw backs (lower hp melee occasional fort and immunities etc etc). The furthest from Asn 3 I can even imagine going is 13/6/1 for imp evasion sapping strike tempest I and x. I just dont see anything playing like my naked rogue with vorpal fists!

Furthermore, lets visit exactly what's gained from Asn 3
Bonus to hit & damage to sneak attack both of enhancement lines ud max out anyways
Subtle Backstabbing which is almost a must
Assassin set making all attacks str draining and level draining and vorpals!
Did i miss anything?

If i were to give up asn 3 and go 13/6/x what would i gain that would even compare to what I already have?
Slightly better saves? Can be made up for w/ buffs gear and playstyle
Damage? Sure, against SA Immunes
Goodbye vorpal and level draining attacks

Maybe Im just not able to get outside of my own box here...

[MeasureZero]

Furthermore, lets visit exactly what's gained from Asn 3
Bonus to hit & damage to sneak attack both of enhancement lines ud max out anyways
Subtle Backstabbing which is almost a must
Assassin set making all attacks str draining and level draining and vorpals!
Did i miss anything?

You would have Subtle Backstabbing and Sneak Attack Training maxed out anyway, but not Damage Boost. You get Crippling Strike as a rogue special ability and not as part of the Assassin line. The Assassin III death attack is situational, and only makes a rogue stronger in situations where (imo) it is not really needed. Even on my 18/2 rogue, I dumped assassin to pick up other enhancements.

[Cap_Man]

I've had Assassin III for a long while, then I realized that, while it is fun to vorp stuff w/ greensteel, it doesn't do anything for reds/purples/anything w/ deathward...and I can buy the vorp ability off the AH for less than the cost of 1 large devil scale.

It might be more attractive to me once I pick up a Litany, or if they fix the crit damage vs seeker stacking.

YMMV.

Ok, what did you trade in Assassin for? What can other rogue builds do to handle the 'reds/purples/anything w/ deathward' problem that an assassin couldn't.?

I always saw that as a gear problem and not a build problem. What am I missing?

[SableShadow]

Ok, what did you trade in Assassin for? What can other rogue builds do to handle the 'reds/purples/anything w/ deathward' problem that an assassin couldn't.?

?

It's a cost/benefit point, not a "good/bad" point.

I went acrobat for an easier time in DQ2, mostly, and a little more runspeed, and some AP savings. Depending on where I am when I get a Litany, I may go back to Assassin and throw that on instead of my Bloodstone.

I always saw that as a gear problem and not a build problem. What am I missing?

I don't think you're missing anything. The problem I have with Assassin III is, Bloodstone + vorpals replace it. Which is fine if you don't have a Bloodstone or vorpals.

[Cap_Man]

?

It's a cost/benefit point, not a "good/bad" point.

I went acrobat for an easier time in DQ2, mostly, and a little more runspeed, and some AP savings. Depending on where I am when I get a Litany, I may go back to Assassin and throw that on instead of my Bloodstone.

That makes sense. I was hoping you had some 'reds/purples/anything w/ deathward' bashing tips.

[SableShadow]

That makes sense. I was hoping you had some 'reds/purples/anything w/ deathward' bashing tips.

I favor the "pointy things, again and again and again" technique.

Although I still really like decent Deception gear for stuff that doesn't blind. YMM, as always, V.