(Trying to) fix 3.5 - how to.

[Seikojin]

Lol, more DM handwaving.

Let's review.

The Genie cannot use his Wishes himself. Someone else has to do it for him.

The Wishes cost the Genie nothing. It gets 3/day, every day for free.

The Genie is not that powerful personally. Anyone who can summon one can kick its ass (and while this is not true of a level 2 character, the genie is going to think you're a lot stronger than you are simply because you brought it there). While it probably could bully nobodies easily, how is it getting to those nobodies? They can't live on its homeplane, fire damage a round every round kinda messes that up. It can't travel on its own.

So, it could either get a good deal by doing what you say, or it can get ***pwned (or so it thinks) and then you raise it as a sapient undead that does not lose the abilities it had in life like say... a Bone creature, and then you force it to give you Wishes because you're completely controlling it. Now as a level 2 you can't do this either, but again since you summoned it it thinks you're more badass than you actually are... and a level 11 totally could do that.

Indeed, let us review. Here is the entry from d20srd for efreeti: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti

Efreeti 
Size/Type: Large Outsider (Extraplanar, Fire) 
Hit Dice: 10d8+20 (65 hp) 
Initiative: +7 
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 40 ft. (perfect) 
Armor Class: 18 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +6 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 15 
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+20 
Attack: Slam +15 melee (1d8+6 plus 1d6 fire) 
Full Attack: 2 slams +15 melee (1d8+6 plus 1d6 fire) 
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. 
Special Attacks: Change size, heat, spell-like abilities 
Special Qualities: Change shape, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire, plane shift, telepathy 100 ft., vulnerability to cold 
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +10, Will +9 
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 15 
Skills: Bluff +15, Craft (any one) +14, Concentration +15, Diplomacy +6, Disguise +2 (+4 acting), Intimidate +17, Listen +15, Move Silently +16, Sense Motive +15, Spellcraft +14, Spot +15 
Feats: Combat Casting, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved InitiativeB, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (scorching ray) 
Environment: Elemental Plane of Fire 
Organization: Solitary, company (2-4), or band (6-15) 
Challenge Rating: 8 
Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; standard items 
Alignment: Always lawful evil 
Advancement: 11-15 HD (Large); 16-30 HD (Huge) 
Level Adjustment: — 

The efreet (singular efreeti) are genies from the Elemental Plane of Fire. 

An efreeti stands about 12 feet tall and weighs about 2,000 pounds. 

Efreet speak Auran, Common, Ignan, and Infernal. 

Combat
Efreet love to mislead, befuddle, and confuse their foes. They do so for enjoyment as well as a battle tactic. 

Change Size (Sp)
Twice per day, an efreeti can magically change a creature’s size. This works just like an enlarge person or reduce person spell (the efreeti chooses when using the ability), except that the ability can work on the efreeti. A DC 13 Fortitude save negates the effect. The save DC is Charisma-based. This is the equivalent of a 2nd-level spell. 

Heat (Ex)
An efreeti’s red-hot body deals 1d6 points of extra fire damage whenever it hits in melee, or in each round it maintains a hold when grappling. 

Spell-Like Abilities
At will—detect magic, produce flame, pyrotechnics (DC 14), scorching ray (1 ray only); 3/day—invisibility, wall of fire (DC 16); 1/day—grant up to three wishes (to nongenies only), gaseous form, permanent image (DC 18). Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. 

Change Shape (Su)
An efreeti can assume the form of any Small, Medium, or Large humanoid or giant.

True, someone who is not of his kind has to ask for the wish. That does not however infer that the Efreeti wants to give them out.

True, their ability is up to 3x/day. For relative freeness. They are played per the spell.
Here is wish: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm

Wish
Universal
Level: Sor/Wiz 9 
Components: V, XP 
Casting Time: 1 standard action 
Range: See text 
Target, Effect, or Area: See text 
Duration: See text 
Saving Throw: See text 
Spell Resistance: Yes 

Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you. 

Even wish, however, has its limits. 

A wish can produce any one of the following effects. 

•Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
•Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
•Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
•Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
•Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
•Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
•Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
•Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
•Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.
•Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.
•Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
•Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.) 

Duplicated spells allow saves and spell resistance as normal (but save DCs are for 9th-level spells). 

Material Component
When a wish duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 10,000 gp, you must provide that component. 

XP Cost
The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.

Wish in itself is pretty normal except this little section in its description:
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

That statement right there makes wish whatever the DM wants it to do. So it goes from a black and white spell to a big fat gray that can help or harm.

From this point on, you assume that Efreeti will do certain actions based on nothing at all. The Efreeti would fight to the subdual for its wishes or if you could talk it into believing you. But no Efreeti would believe you.

[diamabel]

Lol, more DM handwaving.

Let's review.

The Genie cannot use his Wishes himself. Someone else has to do it for him.

The Wishes cost the Genie nothing. It gets 3/day, every day for free.

The Genie is not that powerful personally. Anyone who can summon one can kick its ass (and while this is not true of a level 2 character, the genie is going to think you're a lot stronger than you are simply because you brought it there). While it probably could bully nobodies easily, how is it getting to those nobodies? They can't live on its homeplane, fire damage a round every round kinda messes that up. It can't travel on its own.

So, it could either get a good deal by doing what you say, or it can get ***pwned (or so it thinks) and then you raise it as a sapient undead that does not lose the abilities it had in life like say... a Bone creature, and then you force it to give you Wishes because you're completely controlling it. Now as a level 2 you can't do this either, but again since you summoned it it thinks you're more badass than you actually are... and a level 11 totally could do that.

Let's have a look at the spell description of planar binding (which comes in various versions: lesser, normal and greater):

... Casting the spell attempts a dangerous act luring a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap, which must lie within the spell's range. The called creature is held in the trap until it agrees to perform one service in return for its freedom.
To create the trap, you must use a magic circle spell, focused inward. The kind of creature to be bound must be known and stated. If you wish to call a specific individual, you must use that individual's proper name in casting the spell.
The target creature is allowed a will saving throw. If the saving throw succeeds, the creature resists the spell. If the saving throw fails, the creature is immediately drawn to the trap (spell resistance doesn't keep it from being called). The creature can escape from the trap with by successfully pitting its spell resistance against your caster level check, by dimensional travel, or with a successful charisma check (DC 15 + 1/2 your aster level + your charisma modifier) It can try each method once per day. If it breaks loose, it can flee or attack you. ...

The spell description talks about some more charisma based checks to get your desired outcome by the planar binding.


According to http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Efreeti an Efreeti has the plane shift ability. Which could give it the possibility to escape. The link doesn't offer more information about its habitat and stuff, so I can't judge whether the Efreeti will deliberately stay on the plane it was summoned to.

The risk is considerably high for a low level wizard. Bad luck with dice rolls and you may get toasted.

Dunno if a low level wizard will be able to successfully summon a "wish machine". Besides, a DM might rule that a new wizard may not know enough about the kind of creature to be called.

If your wizard is maxed for intelligence and constitution, it may lack the "drive" to successfully pass the required checks which involve charisma.

The wizard will need some more than just the planar binding spell scroll. And backup help if things turn south wouldn't hurt either.

Apart from this, where would a new adventurer take all the resources (e.g. gold). It's unlikely that a DM will allow all party members to start as nobles with unlimited funds (without any good reason or explanation).

[SquelchHU]

Wish in itself is pretty normal except this little section in its description:
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

Yes, IF you try and exceed those limitations.

That statement right there makes wish whatever the DM wants it to do. So it goes from a black and white spell to a big fat gray that can help or harm.

From this point on, you assume that Efreeti will do certain actions based on nothing at all. The Efreeti would fight to the subdual for its wishes or if you could talk it into believing you. But no Efreeti would believe you.

No, fail. Since you aren't exceeding the limitations it works exactly as you state. You don't get to hide behind handwaving. And hell, the guy who wrote that was being nice. See, 'create a magic item' is within the spell limits. But it never puts a price tag ON the magic item. The only difference is the higher the cost the greater the XP cost. Except of course that the XP cost of SLAs is always and exactly ZERO, so you totally could Wish for something that cost 9 bajillion gold, and get it because it is within the spell limitations.

[Seikojin]

Yes, IF you try and exceed those limitations.



No, fail. Since you aren't exceeding the limitations it works exactly as you state. You don't get to hide behind handwaving. And hell, the guy who wrote that was being nice. See, 'create a magic item' is within the spell limits. But it never puts a price tag ON the magic item. The only difference is the higher the cost the greater the XP cost. Except of course that the XP cost of SLAs is always and exactly ZERO, so you totally could Wish for something that cost 9 bajillion gold, and get it because it is within the spell limitations.

If you want my how to fix 3.5, it would be change wish and permenancy.

Going by RAW, yeah, wish will allow you to get alot done for little. Any DM with a human level of intelligence will see the flaw in having wish and permenancy the way they are in 3.5.

Call it handwaiving, but wishes and permenancy don't go that way in games I run. If you are soo challeneged that you cannot participate in a game where wish and permenancy are more flexible, but potentially more costly, then you should put the dice down and go back to clicking a mouse. Not the game for you.

Edit: And by posturing like this, you deviate from the real point, that planar binding would allow the efreeti saves and chances to escape. So it is not a cast to win scenario.

[SquelchHU]

The way they are in 3.5?

Oh, you mean where Wish is only ever worth casting for inherent bonuses to stats, or when you can abuse it in some way (like beating up genies) and Permanency is never worth casting?

And your brilliant solution to that is to make them even LESS useful? Because as we all know, players totally expect to have high level, expensive spells not provide them with anything useful, and indeed expect such spells to screw them over worse than doing nothing, at all.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_T0Q3xR4Xrr...ggest_frog.jpg

[Montrose]

My cube sense is tingling. I forsee an impending doom for this thread.

Which is a bummer, because I thought the other thread was actually pretty interesting.

[SquelchHU]

My cube sense is tingling. I forsee an impending doom for this thread.

Which is a bummer, because I thought the other thread was actually pretty interesting.

Nah.

[Montrose]

Nah.

Nah, not cube food (due to the lack of presence of a certain individual); Nah, the other thread wasn't interesting; Or both?

[SquelchHU]

Nah, not cube food (due to the lack of presence of a certain individual); Nah, the other thread wasn't interesting; Or both?

Both.

[Seikojin]

The way they are in 3.5?

Oh, you mean where Wish is only ever worth casting for inherent bonuses to stats, or when you can abuse it in some way (like beating up genies) and Permanency is never worth casting?

And your brilliant solution to that is to make them even LESS useful? Because as we all know, players totally expect to have high level, expensive spells not provide them with anything useful, and indeed expect such spells to screw them over worse than doing nothing, at all.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_T0Q3xR4Xrr...ggest_frog.jpg

It is all about risk vs reward. The way they are written in 3 and 3.5 (iirc 3 had it that way too), they are very abuseable in a RAW sense.

Again you are deviating from the topic and any origional points. Planar binding does allow saves and escapes.

Some class specific changes sound like a good per DM fix for any possible shortcomings of 3.5 for the SGT.

[Maegin]

Pathfinder does a great job, I'm tellin ya.

[SquelchHU]

Pathfinder does a great job, I'm tellin ya.

It sure does.

One good thing about Paizo. They know and know how to deceive their audience as PF does a really good job of tricking idiots into thinking it works like they say it does. Everyone else though gets it either on their own, or when it is explained to them. They are literally making the mentally ******** a market demographic.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=211361