Monk/Wizard build advice

[kernal42]

I'm thinking of battlecaster evasion builds with the hope of being useful in high-end/epic content. It's also somewhat of a compromise between the fighter-splash and rogue-splash builds. My motivation is that in many situations (read: Shavarath), my damage spells are generally an inefficient use of sp, and after using any CC I just sit around waiting for the melees to dispatch the mobs. Enervate/Finger works, but is slow when confronted with multiple mobs. I'd like to be somewhat more self-contained and able to dispatch immobilized mobs myself, as well as engage in some self-healing (hence WF).

What I'd like is:
Evasion
Level 9 spells
Ability to boost AC high enough to melee raid bosses
Sufficient damage output to be useful in meleeing raid bosses
Self-Healing
Efficient trash mob disposal*

*What I mean here is that I can kill trash mobs either with spells or melee; if it takes more sp to melee the mobs and then self-heal than to just use spells (for example, enervate & finger), then I'd be better off as straight wizard.

Assume this is on a TR'd wizard with a Torc and at least one Concordant Opposition item (goggles). Also assume situationally ideal weapon sets (for example, dual vorpal kamas).

Here are some questions to get started:
WF Wiz/Monk 18/2 or 17/3 or 17/2/? or other?
2HF or TWF?
If 2HF, go with staffs for monk speed bonus, or big swords for damage increase?
Max int and go Enchantment spec, or sacrifice spell DC for combat abilities, relying on no-save spells, or something else?
What are good ways to boost DR sufficiently to proc the torc/conc opp efficiently?
Is this theme doomed to failure from the start?

Thanks in advance,
Zharadan

[kernal42]

Without any responses yet (I know I'm impatient), I'll use this for some thinking aloud....

Reading up a little more on glancing blows, it looks like TWF will be much better for this sort of build than THF. Unfortunately, this requires more dex than I'd like. Starting with stats of 14/14/16/18/6/6 is about the best I can do, keeping int max'd, and still requires a +3 dex tome to get GTWF. Dumping wis is less than ideal; however the monk levels will offset this. This stat set yields, without any exceptional bonuses, 22/23/26/34/15/6. With rage and lesser wind stance, that's 24/25/26/34/15/6.

Using 18/2, end saves (base + stats) are 17/21/16. Including +2 head of good fortune, +1 alch, +4 GH, and +5 resistance, that's end saves of 29/33/28 before paladin/bard/cleric buffs. This is actually lower than I had hoped, but (can someone correct me here?) acceptable.

Attack bonus will probably be trouble.
BAB +10 +1(centered)+7(str)+4(GH)+2(comp)+5(weapon)-2(TWF) = +27. I've never played a high-level melee for comparison, but I assume this is too low by more than ten. Looking for advice on how to increase that to acceptable level.

Cheers,
Zharadan

[sephiroth1084]

Your end-projected saves look good, but you're right about your attack bonus being a bit low. Did you figure in Master's Touch?

As for the viability of meleeing tough monsters down being more efficient than using mana...I'm not really sure where you're going to get that kind of DPS. The first few levels of monk adds fairly little in that department and wizard adds basically zilch.

Ditto for AC, as neither your Dex nor Wis will be high enough to reach any of the significant AC goals.

I don't want to be a naysayer, but I'm just not sure you'll be able to accomplish everything that you're setting out to do.

[aristarchus1000]

To Hit is generally fixed with a stack of Divine Power clickies (see Asp's Arcane Knight, I think he says he's got 10 x5 ones on his).

The problem I see has more to do this hit points, is it going to be high enough for someone who melee's regularly? It's harder to avoid some damage with twitch skills which you are going for the beat-down. Evasion will help for spell splash (since the main tank that might be next to you will get spells thrown at him).

What I like, is that you aren't giving up all that much, and you are an effective caster. 18 Wiz with splash is popular (usually with rogue). Now with LR, you can try leveling one up and then ungimp it by turning it into a pure wiz or rogue wiz at high levels if it turns out not so good.

[kernal42]

Thanks for the responses.

aristacus1000: Your comment regarding build perks exactly describe why this interests me. I've seen the success of the wizard/rogue builds (and my own need for evasion, at times...). This is sort of a thought experiment to see if, by replacing rogue with monk, sufficiently useful melee abilities can be gained.

Quick HP calculation:
20 + 72 (wiz) + 16 (monk) + 160 (con) +10 (draconic) +63 (ish, toughness + enh) + 20 (Minos) + 35 (conc opp GS; hp) +30 (GFL) +5 tortoise = 431 hp, 471hp in earth stance instead of wind. This is not terrific. Can anyone comment on whether or not it's pathetic?

Regarding AC, this is the least important of my goals, since it will only be so strongly desired if I somehow take raid boss aggro and can't exit melee. The chances that I take raid boss aggro continue to look small.....

Reading some posts on Divine Power, it sounds like it would put my BAB up to +20, rather than the greater of my current BAB (+10) and the caster level of the clicky. Can someone verify this? If it's true, that would boost my attack bonus up to 37, 38 with haste, 39 with DF clicky. This is starting to sound reasonable, and maybe in the range of making power attack worthwhile (esp with inspire courage active...).

Master's touch I believe only removes proficiency penalties, and I'd be planning to use monk weapons anyway. If Master's Touch provides more bonuses, I'd be very happy to include them.

Regarding dps, I'm not sure I would expect to damage down most mobs; supposing I can get situationally ideal weapon sets (say, dual vorpal kamas or something), I'd be looking more to just cut off some heads, preferably they're dancing or somesuch. This is where the monk attack speed bonus will begin to help.

Against raid bosses I'll have the option of spells or melee. DQ is a prime subject for spells, while against Arra I'd hope to melee. Here is where the actual dps will really matter. As a goal I'd like perhaps half of the dps of a dedicated melee.

Quick weapon damage estimate for Min II kukri (15-20 /2x crit)
1d6 (base) + 1d4 (slashing) +2d6 (good) + 1d6 (acid)+ 7 (str) + 1 (DF) + 5 (ench) = 29 damage
+8 (power attack) + 9 (inspiration) = ~46 damage per hit, at maximum.

I suspect this is pretty low damage, but potentially enough to help. Can anyone comment on this?

Thanks,
Zharadan

[sephiroth1084]

Well, your stated goals in the beginning seemed to indicate that you wanted enough AC to be useful and enough DPS to take down targets more efficiently than using your spells.

It's in the realm of possibility (there are those 16/2/2 caster builds that make for pretty decent melees--usually greataxe users), but I just don't see it being really significant in that sense. 46 damage per swing is not awful, but is pretty low considering even mediocre melees can be looking at around +46 damage before figuring in any dice.

I'm not sure you'll have enough DPS to take down an orthon in Amrath on your own, but should have enough to contribute without spending SP, which is reasonable and somewhat valuable. I melee down tieflings in Weapons Shipment with my pure wizard who started with an 8 Str just using my own buffs and a Dreamspitter. And I wade into melee on occasion vs. orthons and such, usually when trying to get back SP, and help (I imagine I'm probably contributing DPS about equivalent to the glancing blows on a 2-handed warrior, heh), and the monk will definitely help with some survivability and specialty weapon usage (paralyzing, vorpal, wounding, weakening, etc...).

It seems to me like monk is more flexible, and works better with the specialty non-DPS weapons, but that rogue would add more DPS (1d6+3/swing), plus better skill access.

As for your projected Divine Power'ed attack bonus, that will be enough to support Power Attack in most content.

[Calebro]

I've been slowly leveling a WF 1 rogue / 2 monk / 17 wiz
Trap skills, evasion, extra feats means you can fit in a few combat oriented things, the ability to melee a bit saves SP for when you need it without standing around doing nothing.

I went:
1) 1 rogue
2) 1 monk
3) 1 wiz
4) 2 monk
5+) wiz

The low levels can be done in melee by any wiz, this gives you more tools to do so. By the time you *really* start to need FW, it's there at level 10. Buffs and repairs all the way until you get FW, then start to mix up the spell selection a bit.

I have him at level 10 (or is it 11?) right now, and so far I haven't been disappointed.
Sure, 3 levels short on SP, but with at least *some* melee ability it's much less pronounced.
TWF if that's your pleasure, or THF with staves and stay in your preferred monk stance even while in caster mode.

[kernal42]

Thanks again for the feedback.

I think that monk will add comparably, though less, to dps as rogue will with the speed increase. The damage increase from sneak attack of +6.5 (avg) per attack is about +15% to dps, while the monk adds +7.5% from attack speed. Less, but still an increase. Reading your post, Sephiroth, led me to consider wiz17/monk2/rogue1 as a build to further increase dps, get rogue skills (UMD!), evasion, and some bonus feats. I was then pleased to read Calebro's positive experience with this very build.

Regarding dps for trash and AC, I should have been more clear in the original post. They're in the idealized set of design goals, but I recognize that my goals are lofty and some points will have to be comprimised.

Quick estimate of AC:
10 +2(plating) + 6(dex) +2(wis) +5(dtouched) +1(haste) +5(prot) +1(alch) +4(shield spell) = 35 minimal
+2 (chaosgarde) +3(dtouched dodge) +5(natural) = 45 starting to try
+4 insight +2(luck) +4(paladin aura) = 55 with party support
+2 fighting defensively =57 if I need it
+2 (exceptional wis) +1 (+4 wis tome) +2 (exceptional dex) +1(+4 dex tome) = 63 for distant, unachievable end game.

It would be possible but difficult to get into the 60s. Not great for high-end content, but may help if I need to stop being hit.

Feats desired:
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Power Attack
Toughness
Insightful Reflexes
Quicken
Empower
Maximize
Heighten
Extend
Spell Pen I
Spell Pen II
Mental Toughness
Imp Mental Toughness
Spell Focus
Greater Spell Focus
Total: 19
4 Wiz
2 Monk
7 level
Total: 13

I miss out on 210 sp from mental toughness/improved mental toughness. I may switch out Extend Spell for one of these, if sp seems especially short. I'm hoping the sp problem will be partially lessened by the Aligning the Stars finishing move, although I'm not entirely sure exactly how those work (and, therefore, if I'll be able to use it regularly). In any case, max sp will be ~1500, which is comparable to 2000sp if I can keep stellar alignment up fairly often. I also lose out on spell focus, which is unfortunate. I'll need to play around more right now to see what kind of save DCs I need to be effective.

Cheers,
Zharadan

[Calebro]

Feats desired:
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Power Attack
Toughness
Insightful Reflexes
Quicken
Empower
Maximize
Heighten
Extend
Spell Pen I
Spell Pen II
Mental Toughness
Imp Mental Toughness
Spell Focus
Greater Spell Focus
Total: 19
4 Wiz
2 Monk
7 level
Total: 13

I can help here.
Max Int means Spell Focus is nice, but not required. BAB never reaches +11, so GTWF is out. Start with Extend but swap it later for Empower or Quicken depending on how long you want to keep it.
That drops your total feats from 19 to 15
Ultimately this is exactly what led me to dump Dex, forget the TWF line, and go with staves. The added bonus was that they allow me to stay in stance at all times, while being considerably cheaper for casters than scepters are.

Beyond that, this looks like a clone of my toon so far.

[sephiroth1084]

Calebro makes a good point. Your AC isn't going to be high enough for the Dex to matter much (not to mention Insightful Reflexes nullifies its value almost entirely), and the TWF feats are forcing you to dump points from your other stats. Albeit, it affords you the ability to hang onto a Potency item (or some other caster-related weapon) and a DPS weapon.

Matter of preference there I suppose, but using a 2-hander just seems like a much better idea.

Also, keep in mind that while the rogue level will help your DPS and skills, every additional splashed non-wizard level will hurt your SP and spell penetration more. Also, UMD on a WF isn't as useful as on a fleshie, so that makes it even less of an upside.

As for your feats...Extend can end up saving you as much SP as Mental Toughness grants, and is far more useful. Think about how many Hastes, Displacements, firewalls, dances, webs, etc... you throw in a quest. How often do you need to recast those when not Extended? How many when Extended? +10 SP is cheaper than recasting anything over 1st lvl.

[shurakaibob]

I m really far far away from an expert so excuse if i say something stupid but for me the 3 levels monk combined with wizard look really great.
With Aligning the Heavens 25% save of spellpoints, healing ki for nice near free selfheal (human with imp.recovery perhaps) or breath of the fire dragon (with fire enchantsments?) For the last 2 as far as i understood it counts as special ability and monk lvl is here character lvl.
Hmm on the other side with 17/2/1 and UMD you can do more except the occasional 25%save of sps...

[gott_ist_tot]

It is kind of possible to get GTWF, but you lose quite a lot.
And get GTWF and fighter haste boost.
One would probably have to go 1 Fighter \ 3 Monk \ 16 Wizard
The level and feat progression is um... less than optimal, but it's
just an example of cramming GTWF into such build.

1  Monk   (Selected) Toughness (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
2  Wizard (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell
3  Wizard
4  Wizard
5  Wizard
6  Wizard (Selected) Maximize Spell (Wizard Bonus) Mental Toughness
7  Wizard
8  Wizard
9  Wizard (Selected) Spell Penetration
10 Wizard
11 Wizard (Wizard Bonus) Improved Mental Toughness
12 Wizard (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration
13 Monk   (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
14 Monk   (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light
15 Wizard (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
16 Wizard
17 Wizard 
18 Wizard (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell (Selected) Empower Spell
19 Wizard
20 Fighter (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting

[Ezeikeiel]

Hey there. I myself have built a wiz/monk, currently 15 wiz 3 monk. i am not going to be able to get in depth with my build atm cause servers are down. but, basically i started (vet) 2 monk 2 wiz. somewhere between there and lvl 12 i took a third monk lvl, Aligning the heavens has become very beneficial for buffs and occasionaly during combat. somethin else i did was build to get the enhancments, shoudof the wraith & lich. when i use is circumstantial like most other things. but if u want to be a combat build i would strongly suggest obtaining the undead forms. finding exceptional handwraps is also a must. it is true that ur BAB will be low, but there are things to compensate for the loss. my most often used strategy is to immobilze the enemy via ghoul touch, hold person/monster, flesh to stone, or mass hold person (so far). FoD i use occasionaly. i did aquire spell penetration feats as well. as far as damaging spells go, i use the prismatic spells the most. another thing, if u are intending on mixing ur mage with monk then 2wf is grand. also try and stick with monk weapons, if u are light path then aligning the heavens, u cant pass up. i myself took only the first pale master prestige enhancment in order to obtain the undead forms. something that surprise me is that on occasion an enemy will become sickened in my presence.. i thought that was neat, but it is not mention in the prestige descritption so i really have no idea how i managed to sicken them. and AC for my build has been 39 unbuffed and can often get close to 50. i didnt have 32 pt build when i made my toon but it would help greatly . i think thats pretty much it.. look into the shroud of the wraith/lich. using the abilities can be risky at times, but there are times when its just wonderful. the con draining u can dish out in wraith form, if say u use mass hold person, is vicious. u fighting abilities may not be on par with a regular melee build, but u have to look at it as more of a tactical fighter, which takes a bit more brains. i like to call the build a necrotic monk. if u are ever on Argon server my toons name is Emjei, feel free to ask questions. good luck on your build

[Valakai]

Breath of the Fire Dragon
10 Ki. Prep: fire fire fire
A cone of fire does 1d6 damage per level. Reflex half.

Healing Ki I
10 Ki. Prep: pos pos pos
You heal all nearby allies for 1d4 plus 1d4 per two monk levels. (Does not harm undead foes)

At least these 2 would give you something to do right. Healing Ki as fas as I know is working of character level not monk level so you can do small group heals and breath of the fire dragon gives you a damage "spell" you can use when low on SP.

Getting AC high enough to matter end game is pretty impossibe and while you can do some damage with melee I would say its mostly for situations where you are low/ out of SP /have used all sp spamming damage spells and boss is still standing.