The Caretaker (Rogue 4/ Bard 16)

[RoelHeeswijk]

NOTE: This build if heaviliy dependant on the trap DC's of the endgame. As long as they keep increasing or decreasing the existing DC's by 20 every update, I do not recommend actually rolling this since it's not very flexible there. If the DC's are lower than I guessed, an exploiter can handle them and this build is a waste. If they're higher, this build is certainly a waste since you'd still need a better trapper for those few exceptional quest this was build for.

The focus:
-Sing
-Buff
-Disable epic traps
-Heal/Reconstruct with scrolls
-heal a bit with your few remaining SP

what this build CAN'T do:
-damage
-successfully cast spells that have saves

15 Bard / 4 Rogue / 1 FvS
Drow (True Neutral)
Rogue on 1, 12, 18, 20; FvS on 13

32 point Drow:
Strength            10       20     (+3 Tome, +1 exceptional, +6 item)
Dexterity           10       12     (+2 Tome)
Constitution        14[+3]   30     (+3 Tome, +3 exceptional, +7 item)
Intelligence        18[+1]   34     (+3 Tome, +3 exceptional, +7 item)
Wisdom               8       16     (+2 Tome, +6 item)
Charisma            18[+1]   34*    (+3 Tome, +3 exceptional, +7 item, +2 Enhancement)

*16->32 without the 4 reincarnate points

Max out:
Spot                23       49   (+3 WIS +2 drow +15 item + 2 luck + 4 GH)
Search              23       72   (+12 INT +6 exceptionalIntSkills +2 drow + 4 enh. +15 item + 2 luck + 4 GH  + 1 FChant + 3 Action)
Disable Device      23       81   (+12 INT +6 exceptionalIntSkills + 2 enh. +15 item + 7 tools + 2 luck + 4 GH  + 1 FChant + 3 Action + 3 Ventilated + 3 Troubleshooter)
Open Lock           23    67-70   (+3 dex6Item +1 exceptionalDex2Item +6 exceptionalDexSkills + 2 enh. +15 item + 7 tools + 2 luck + 4 GH  + 1 FChant + 3 Troubleshooter; temp: + 3 Action)
Use Magic Device    23    53-56   (+12 CHA + 2 luck + 4 GH + 5 Seven-Fingered Gloves + 6 exceptional cha skills + 1 FChant; temp: + 3 Action Boost)
Perform             22    62-65   (+12 CHA + 2 luck + 4 GH + 1 FChant + 15 item + 6 exceptional cha skills + 1 FChant; temp: + 3 Action Boost)
Diplomacy           22                    
Concentration       22                    
Haggle              22                     
Balance             14                    
Jump                 4
Swim                 3                     
Tumble               1

Save vs Trap              55-61   (15 + 12 Int + 1 trap sense + 4 trapsave enh. + 4 GH + 5 resistance + 4 resilience + 2 luck + 2 exceptional/insight + 6 rogue reincarnate; temp: + 4 uncanny dodge + 2 FvS boost)

Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Feat: (Selected) Resilience

Enhancement: Favored Soul Saves Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song IV
Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II
Enhancement: Rogue Search II
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock II
Enhancement: Favored Soul Energy of the Scion I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic III
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II
Enhancement: Favored Soul Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense II
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery IV

[Aschbart]

To give a fair warning: I have no experience with high level DCs nor with builds like that, but even without that experience I am spotting some severe potential issues. Maybe I am assessing this wrong, and anyone with more experience please correct me, but:

1. with less than 600 SPs you're not going to help much as a backup healer, most of these SPs will likely be needed for buffing already.
2. with 16 CHA you're not going to do effective CC either. Even with a +6 CHA item your DC's will be in the low 20s at best - nothing on elite difficulty will even blink, let alone in raids or on Epic.
3. With so much effort put into INT, your Str and Dex are gimped to the point of uselessness for the purpose of some ranged or melee combat to help out when you're out of SPs for healing (which will probably be most of the time). Remember that combat is the prevalent thing you will be doing, in any quest or raid, not fiddling with traps!
4. [edit](incorrect statement removed[/edit] For traps, in case you fail to spot one you won't have any boosts active. I am not sure if a failed disarm requires the same save - in that case you'd have an active skill boost, but couldn't have a save boost active at the same time.

That said, your traps skills are looking good, but I only have a pre mod 9 lists to compare high watermarks, and you easily meet those by a fair margin. Unfortunatley I'm not aware of any current high watermark list.

Personally I'd advise against such a thorough dedication to high Int. Going for 18 start Int alone instead of, say, 16, makes your build mostly gimped for any other purpose than traps and locks. Moreover, the last two level bumps on Int will add exactly 1 skill point to your build, and bump DD and Search by one each - I cannot think of a greater waste of resources!

IMHO, decide on a combat role and use your ability points, level bumps and feats to put some weight behind that role, then - and only then - use the rest of your resources to deal with traps and locks. If you want a build that is a dedicated trap springer, go rogue, not bard - you will be much better both on traps and on combat efficiency.

[RoelHeeswijk]

To give a fair warning: I have no experience with high level DCs nor with builds like that, but even without that experience I am spotting some severe potential issues. Maybe I am assessing this wrong, and anyone with more experience please correct me, but:

1. with less than 600 SPs you're not going to help much as a backup healer, most of these SPs will likely be needed for buffing already.
2. with 16 CHA you're not going to do effective CC either. Even with a +6 CHA item your DC's will be in the low 20s at best - nothing on elite difficulty will even blink, let alone in raids or on Epic.
3. With so much effort put into INT, your Str and Dex are gimped to the point of uselessness for the purpose of some ranged or melee combat to help out when you're out of SPs for healing (which will probably be most of the time). Remember that combat is the prevalent thing you will be doing, in any quest or raid, not fiddling with traps!
4. [edit](incorrect statement removed[/edit] For traps, in case you fail to spot one you won't have any boosts active. I am not sure if a failed disarm requires the same save - in that case you'd have an active skill boost, but couldn't have a save boost active at the same time.

That said, your traps skills are looking good, but I only have a pre mod 9 lists to compare high watermarks, and you easily meet those by a fair margin. Unfortunatley I'm not aware of any current high watermark list.

Personally I'd advise against such a thorough dedication to high Int. Going for 18 start Int alone instead of, say, 16, makes your build mostly gimped for any other purpose than traps and locks. Moreover, the last two level bumps on Int will add exactly 1 skill point to your build, and bump DD and Search by one each - I cannot think of a greater waste of resources!

IMHO, decide on a combat role and use your ability points, level bumps and feats to put some weight behind that role, then - and only then - use the rest of your resources to deal with traps and locks. If you want a build that is a dedicated trap springer, go rogue, not bard - you will be much better both on traps and on combat efficiency.

uh, yeah, i stated those weak point as the start as a given, along with the question not to propose a completely diffent build. I know how a regular build can be done, thank you.
Still, thanks for pointing out the versatility-rogue boost dissynergy. 3 points less on each skill makes this build a lot less viable. Going drow would result in compareable stats now. I updated the original post with some options

[Aschbart]

Seems like I had some major misconception of human versatility - I thought it would lock out all other boosts, but in fact it doesnt - it only locks out other boosts from Versatility, not action boosts you get from classes. tried it out this afternoon. Sorry for the confusion.

So this means that yes, you can use both rogue skill boost and human skill boost.

[RoelHeeswijk]

Seems like I had some major misconception of human versatility - I thought it would lock out all other boosts, but in fact it doesnt - it only locks out other boosts from Versatility, not action boosts you get from classes. tried it out this afternoon. Sorry for the confusion.

So this means that yes, you can use both rogue skill boost and human skill boost.

They can be used together, but don't stack. So you can use versatility for + 5 saves bonus and rogue boost for +3 disable, but no +8 disable :-(

[testing1234]

this build is Not a good healer not even a average healer its a bad healer
empower healing feat on a lvl16 bard does not magicaly make you a good healer

heal scrolls only take you so far when **** hits the fan youre build simply dont have the healing power even with unlimted mana to keep high hp players alive.
add maximise and quicken to your build

dont see any synergy in this build noting from bard makes him rogue a better trapsmith and the rogue does not make the bard a better healer.
not a epic raider myself but i sure wouldnt want this build in one of my teams for random elite quest/raid

[Aschbart]

They can be used together, but don't stack. So you can use versatility for + 5 saves bonus and rogue boost for +3 disable, but no +8 disable :-(

Gosh, I feel stupid. Only tried whether they can be activated, and they could - never thought to check on the bonus....

Oh well, on the plus side, you now don't have to pick rogue skill boost as well as Veratility

[kelabb]

While I can appreciate your goal to be versatile and a support character, I agree with an earlier comment about lack of punch this build will give a party. Having tried a few bards, I have been disappointed with their performance when multi-classed with rogue. They don't hit enough traps, and their fighting is poor, at best.

Your statement that all the spells will be healing seems to me to be robbing the toon of the versatility you seem to be aiming for. It's the bard's buffing through songs and spells that makes them so desired. It looks like this guy will sing a song, search for a trap, and if lucky find it, and if luckier disable it, then follow at a safe distance until the next performing opportunity presents itself.

The school of bard use seems to be that when not singing or buffing a bard is required for fighting, yet you say this guy won't be swinging a sword. While a lot of parties will support a healbot, I doubt if they'll tollerate a bard hiding in corners for long.

And at the risk of being told you know how to build a regular character, I echo the earlier post suggesting you think about how this guy will contribute in battle and support that with appropriate stats and skills.

[RoelHeeswijk]

Your statement that all the spells will be healing seems to me to be robbing the toon of the versatility you seem to be aiming for. It's the bard's buffing through songs and spells that makes them so desired.

My bad, I meant "non-offensive" spells, explaining the lack of CHA for DC's. You'll have every buff available to bards, and enough mana to cast them, as well as a lingering greatness, ironskin, and +7/+8 inspire songs to keep them happy.

Having tried a few bards, I have been disappointed with their performance when multi-classed with rogue. They don't hit enough traps, and their fighting is poor, at best.
...
It looks like this guy will sing a song, search for a trap, and if lucky find it, and if luckier disable it

I can see bard/rogues in general make halfhearted attempts at trapsmithing, but will this particular build "not hit enough traps and have to be lucky to disable them"?

[RoelHeeswijk]

this build is Not a good healer not even a average healer its a bad healer
empower healing feat on a lvl16 bard does not magicaly make you a good healer

heal scrolls only take you so far when **** hits the fan youre build simply dont have the healing power even with unlimted mana to keep high hp players alive.
add maximise and quicken to your build

dont see any synergy in this build noting from bard makes him rogue a better trapsmith and the rogue does not make the bard a better healer.
not a epic raider myself but i sure wouldnt want this build in one of my teams for random elite quest/raid

I never knew maximize works on healing. If the in-game AND the compendium descriptions are incorrect, how am I supposed to make any decision :-/
Never said it would be a good healer (just not a very mana-inefficient one), but still updated the build accordingly.

[unbongwah]

This build seems...unwise.

INT 14 (16 if drow) should be ample for a trapmonkey and frees up 10 stat points, which I would spend on STR & DEX. I would sacrifice Balance & Spot - or perhaps stealth (use Invisibility instead).

A STR- or DEX-based TWF would contribute much better DPS while still being a capable trapmonkey & buffer / healer. Gimping your combat performance to max your trap skills for the handful of elite / epic traps which require it just isn't worth it, IMHO.

[RoelHeeswijk]

Sorry I might have been unclear. I have another character with 'ample' INT who is a 'capable' trapmonkey for regular quests, but I just wanted to take a look at how a party who can easily tackle those high end ones (at least the ones that are still worth running) might look like (and designed this char as part of that).

I rewrote the first post completly to better reflex my philosophy.

[Aschbart]

Ok, the initial post is thoroughly clear now.

However, as pointed out - this build will be good for nothing but traps and locks and buffing. What will you do for the remaining 90% of the time when the rest of the group is busy hacking monsters? Yes, you do contribute to the group and in doing that fill two roles. However, if I open a group and can have one DPS and one 'trapsinger', or else a pure rogue trapmonky who also does pretty neat DPS and a bard who also does lots of neat CC spells - then I know what my choice would be!

A group needs DPS, and depending on the quests maybe a healer, and maybe a tank. Some quests might also require some degree of trap springing, but in most cases this will just make it easier on the healing part. In most quests traps are optional, and buffs are completely optional anyway (even though this becomes less true in raids). Filling two optional roles is not going to fill the expectations of any group, if you are useless >90% of the time. And I fully expect it will not fill your expectation either!

Regarding your goals, you will be a buffer no matter what you do as a bard of level 15 or higher. And you can be a very good trap springer with a lot less investment. But there is no reason to gimp all your other abilities for the purpose of specializing in just one area. A bard is a generalist, a jack of all trades. Trying to build him as specialist will drop your overall efficiency to near zero. If you want to be a specialist, play a specialist class. If you play a generalist, be good in many areas, and try to contribute to the group 100% of the time.

With regard to your build, if you start at Int 16 (which IMHO is still too high) and do not put any level bumps into Int, your lower final Int will reduce your search and DD scores by at most 4, and I doubt there are many traps where this will make a difference. You'd also lose 41 skill points, but four of these already go into a skill (at level 1) you didn't bother to put any more points into, so you won't ever notice not having them in the first place, and the remaining 37 can easily be cut off some of the non-trap skills.

BTW, I currently investigate a decent melee bard build based on the Axesinger you mentioned, but my ultimate purpose is to create a hagglebard, and thus I chose human, just like you. I started out with an Int score of 8(!) and was convinced I'd never be able to reliably deal with traps. Just for spite, I started an experimental build that can do traps, and found it is in fact doable! I. e. with an Int score of just 8, and 3 rogue levels, I can not only max out my haggle (primary goal), perform (fascinate DC), and UMD, but also Search and Disable Device. And on top of that all I can also do decent TWF DPS with dual Khopesh. Sure, my DD and Search totals are way below your's, as is Open Lock (only 4 ranks), and my spot won't be any help for traps - I'll either need to remember or hope I'm going to survive any blundering into traps. But the ranks on my relevant traps skills are maxed, and just respeccing my enhancements could in fact bring me quite close to your numbers. (at the cost of haggle enhancements, mostly). If I chose to start with a higher Int, say 14, this wouldn't change anything for my traps skills, only for open locks (which currently might require lots of retries at 4 ranks only)

[RoelHeeswijk]

Ok, the initial post is thoroughly clear now.

However, as pointed out - this build will be good for nothing but traps and locks and buffing. What will you do for the remaining 90% of the time when the rest of the group is busy hacking monsters? Yes, you do contribute to the group and in doing that fill two roles. However, if I open a group and can have one DPS and one 'trapsinger', or else a pure rogue trapmonky who also does pretty neat DPS and a bard who also does lots of neat CC spells - then I know what my choice would be!

A group needs DPS, and depending on the quests maybe a healer, and maybe a tank. Some quests might also require some degree of trap springing, but in most cases this will just make it easier on the healing part. In most quests traps are optional, and buffs are completely optional anyway (even though this becomes less true in raids). Filling two optional roles is not going to fill the expectations of any group, if you are useless >90% of the time. And I fully expect it will not fill your expectation either!

Regarding your goals, you will be a buffer no matter what you do as a bard of level 15 or higher. And you can be a very good trap springer with a lot less investment. But there is no reason to gimp all your other abilities for the purpose of specializing in just one area. A bard is a generalist, a jack of all trades. Trying to build him as specialist will drop your overall efficiency to near zero. If you want to be a specialist, play a specialist class. If you play a generalist, be good in many areas, and try to contribute to the group 100% of the time.

With regard to your build, if you start at Int 16 (which IMHO is still too high) and do not put any level bumps into Int, your lower final Int will reduce your search and DD scores by at most 4, and I doubt there are many traps where this will make a difference. You'd also lose 41 skill points, but four of these already go into a skill (at level 1) you didn't bother to put any more points into, so you won't ever notice not having them in the first place, and the remaining 37 can easily be cut off some of the non-trap skills.

BTW, I currently investigate a decent melee bard build based on the Axesinger you mentioned, but my ultimate purpose is to create a hagglebard, and thus I chose human, just like you. I started out with an Int score of 8(!) and was convinced I'd never be able to reliably deal with traps. Just for spite, I started an experimental build that can do traps, and found it is in fact doable! I. e. with an Int score of just 8, and 3 rogue levels, I can not only max out my haggle (primary goal), perform (fascinate DC), and UMD, but also Search and Disable Device. And on top of that all I can also do decent TWF DPS with dual Khopesh. Sure, my DD and Search totals are way below your's, as is Open Lock (only 4 ranks), and my spot won't be any help for traps - I'll either need to remember or hope I'm going to survive any blundering into traps. But the ranks on my relevant traps skills are maxed, and just respeccing my enhancements could in fact bring me quite close to your numbers. (at the cost of haggle enhancements, mostly). If I chose to start with a higher Int, say 14, this wouldn't change anything for my traps skills, only for open locks (which currently might require lots of retries at 4 ranks only)

Take a look at some other build I rolled. Also not standard, he's still not attacking, but he'll probably be more to your liking: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=198436. Concentration to 19, balance to 4, haggle to 23, shift some enhancements and done :-)
I gave up on reflex saves, for he couldn't take on boxes behind traps that well... but if you luck through it or die and get raised on the other end of the trap, he'll get the job done.

Anyway, cutting INT in this build doesn't make much sense to me. If those skills are high enough, i'd rather cut some extreme skillfocus feats first. For instance, swapping INT for say CHA is helping less than swapping nimble fingers for mental toughness (not to mention it is a lot worse for everything else). With Insightful also tying the reflex to INT and with this being a 36point build already (the rest is not that low, improving some won't be that cheap either), I can't help but like my INT.

[testing1234]

I never knew maximize works on healing. If the in-game AND the compendium descriptions are incorrect, how am I supposed to make any decision :-/
Never said it would be a good healer (just not a very mana-inefficient one), but still updated the build accordingly.

trusting turbines descriptions is definitely not a good plan.
about maximize would suggest you tell random lvl20 cleric/fvs about this but i just recently ran into a lvl20 bard specced for healing that didn't know this.
ingame/compendium descriptions has always been vague to the point of being useless, and its always partly out of date. the compendium is a handy tool but lot of feats lacks the detail to make a informed choice possible

[RoelHeeswijk]

trusting turbines descriptions is definitely not a good plan.
about maximize would suggest you tell random lvl20 cleric/fvs about this but i just recently ran into a lvl20 bard specced for healing that didn't know this.
ingame/compendium descriptions has always been vague to the point of being useless, and its always partly out of date. the compendium is a handy tool but lot of feats lacks the detail to make a informed choice possible

I can see why turbine would want to obscure some game mechanic descriptions in order to improve realism, but it seems to me the one in charge of translating designer code to public text is doing quite a poor job of simplify thing while staying correct. Though the rule set being complicated, legacy and changing won't make his job an easy one. (
A least it's still a lot better than Dragon Age, and they have no excuse)
Still I wish Turbine would swap some of their gameplay designers against WotC's game mechanic guys for a few months... such good products could come of that...

but I'm trolling my own topic... I guess noone has reverse engineered many epic trap DC's yet, but still, is therer anyone with gut feelings about the ratio at least?
I see some builds trying (with skill focus even) to keep Search and Disable equal (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=229742), while others keep them wide apart (Cabal trap on elite supports the later with search 56 and disable 76, is this representative?)