crit ranges vs base damage...

[dunklezhan]

Need some help with my DPS theorycraft here, specifically trying to grasp when the break points are when deciding whether or not to upgrade weapons.

The example I'm going to use is the one that paralyzed me in the AH tonight. I have two Nicked Scimitars. These are +1 scimitars with a normal (18-20) crit range that do 1d8 (as opposed to the usual 1d6), with an additional 1d6 acid damage. They also, somewhat randomly, have an *additional* +1 to hit on them.

At L6, with two of these, the relevant TWF feats, elf melee enhancements and a decent Str score, my ranger can put out a fair bit of damage, particularly when fighting favoured enemies.

But there, in the AH within my price range, were two +3 scimitars, with a 15-20 crit range. They had no special additional damage range, and, like other scimitars, only do 1d6.

My maths isn't strong enough to determine which has the higher steady DPS output. The built in figure on the tool tip puts the base damage rating of the AH scimitars at 8.45 as opposed to my nicked ones at 6.33, but I'm not sure how reliable that figure is.

Both have the same x3 crit multiplier, and clearly the max damage output of the Acid Scimtars will be higher when rolling a crit. But equally clearly they have a lower minimum. So more variability there. But on the other hand the other set of weapons will have a more reliable and steady damage output, and will crit more often (25% of the time, in fact based on raw figures).

In the end rather than wipe out most of my plat reserves on this toon, and given i'm at L6 and not really having any problems damage wise (AC is far more of a problem for me right now), I didn't take the risk and I would expect those two scimitars will be gone next time I check.

I think my understanding of this issue will help me with my general weapon choices on all my characters, but if anyone can point me at any good threads that have dealt with this issue I'd be very grateful.

... and please - no generic advice to go down the kopesh route. This post isn't really about the choices for this toon's build. Its about trying to get a grasp of the underlying mechanics so that I can improve the choices on ALL my toons. If you must know, I chose scimitars for this toon because it was that or longswords, and I figured the larger crit range of the scimitars would probably compensate for the drop from 1d8 to 1d6 over the career of the character. But when it comes to all the possible combinations within the scimitar range of weapons I'm tying myself in knots, and as a result I'm also questioning that initial choice to go scimitars over longswords. In other words - I'm happy to be told I've made the wrong choices, but I need to understand *why* not just be directed to follow Cookie Cutter Max DPS Build #3

Thanks in advance.

[Jendrak]

Don't bother with those +3 keen scimitars (im assumeing they are keen by the 15-20 crit range) as a feat (improved crit slashing) will make any scimitar you wield crit on a 15-20. This feat is available at lvl 8 and is a must have IMO. With the exception of a +2 to hit the weapons you are currently wielding are better. So why mess with a good thing.

[Angelus_dead]

Need some help with my DPS theorycraft here, specifically trying to grasp when the break points are when deciding whether or not to upgrade weapons.

Ok, your simplest means of comparison will be Critical Power, which is computed by Critical Range * (Critical Mult-1). That is mainly useful when decided between types of weapons, such as Scimitar (3*1 = 3) versus Battleaxe (1*2 = 2).

My maths isn't strong enough to determine which has the higher steady DPS output. The built in figure on the tool tip puts the base damage rating of the AH scimitars at 8.45 as opposed to my nicked ones at 6.33, but I'm not sure how reliable that figure is.

The Base Damage Rating number is very unreliable, and it would really be better for the developers to delete that entry from weapon displays. It only serves to mislead newbies.

Both have the same x3 crit multiplier, and clearly the max damage output of the Acid Scimtars will be higher when rolling a crit.

I greatly doubt those scimitars have 3x crits.

I think my understanding of this issue will help me with my general weapon choices on all my characters, but if anyone can point me at any good threads that have dealt with this issue I'd be very grateful.

Fairly easy math if you want to compare two weapons. Just think about what would happen if you rolled every attack number from 1 to 20 in order, and add up the damage that would result.

For a +1 Acid Scimitar that is:
1*0 = 0 damage on rolls of 1
16*(4.5+3.5) = 123 damage from rolls of 2-17
3*(4.5*2+3.5) = 37.5 damage on rolls of 18-20
165.5 damage total

But remember, if the weapons have non-identical critical profiles then you'll need to add in your bonuses from Strength, Power Attack, Divine Favor, and everything else. The above was assuming you have strength 10, which is certainly less power than you really bring.

[dunklezhan]

Thanks both - Jendrak for the specific advice, Angelus for the theory.

Angelus - you well may be right about the crit range. While I was writing the post I was alt-tabbing back and forth to the game, I'm sure it said x3, but it was very late and having checked the compendium this morning (I'm not at my gaming PC to log in to DDO), it concurs with you. I probably just read it wrong, which speaks volumes for not making decisions at midnight!

I think I understood your sums at the end - are the 4.5+3.5 and 4.5*2+3.5 entries references to the dice averages? Surprises me that the average is so high, I'd have thought it was 4+3 (1d6+1 and 1d6). Is the average dice roll in DDO then actually "dice size/2 +0.5"? (so the average from a 2d6 great sword would actually be 7 not 6, and the average from a Great Axe is 6.5?)

I think you've also managed to highlight my lack of understanding about how critical strikes work too which is also a very helpful thing to have highlighted! I've been and had a poke at that in the compendium too, so I think I get that now (all the base damage including magical plusses, but not any extra damage dice like rogue sneak attack, flaming effects etc).

So... if I've got that right, then I'd like to paraphrase the formula (can you paraphrase a formula? I'm sure there's a better word) to make sure I've really got it sorted in my head for future reference.

"To compare similar type weapons for damage output, there are two fairly quick ways to proceed.

1. Critical power: Critical Range * (Critical Mult-1) . Higher is better

e.g. Crit Range 17-20, x3 multiplier= 4*2, Crit range 19-20, x3 multiplier= 2*2

2. for more granularity, especially for weapons with similar critical powers, consider the damage from every possible attack dice roll and add it up as follows:

1*0 (miss)
remaining numbers up to crit range-1*(weapon damage dice average+any fixed damage bonuses+any special effect damage dice)
number of steps in Crit range*(((weapon damage dice average+any fixed damage bonuses)*Crit multipllier), +any special effect damage dice)

Note that dice averages are calculated as Dice Size/2+0.5

E.g. +1 Acid Scimitar (1d6+1+1d6 Acid damage for a Str 10 wielder, x2 multiplier, crit range 18-20) looks like this:
1*0 = 0 damage on rolls of 1
16*(4.5+3.5) = 123 damage from rolls of 2-17
3*(4.5*2+3.5) = 37.5 damage on rolls of 18-20
165.5 damage total

Whereas a plain +3 Scimitar with the same critical profile looks like this
1*0 = 0 damage on rolls of 1
16*(6.5) = 104 damage from rolls of 2-17
3*(6.5*2) = 39 damage on rolls of 18-20
143 damage total
"

That right? Thanks again.

[dunklezhan]

hahahaha... and this very morning, this post went up:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...57#post2839357

Its too much maths for me, but if someone put that in some kind of online calculator...

Edit:
*facedesk*

and then I found this:

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/

which shows the following result for the character involved dual wielding each type of Scimitar in question:

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/...ac=10&maxac=50

Its a handy tool to have for displaying a DPS curve. But I still want to get a basic grasp of the theory (so the thread I've linked to appears to be excellent for advanced theory, and the tool is great for a automating the calculation, but I'm find Angelus' response much more useful for me personally!)