How do Clerics heal better than FvS?

[chefgroovy]

What is the difference between a WOW or EQ style nannybot and a DDO style nannybot? Is a nannybot just a condescending term for healer?

I think he's referring to EQ and WoW clerics as just standing around and healing. No Combat or CC stuff. Nannybot isn't condescending, it's a valid, and in a lot of cases welcome, playstyle.

I played clerics in EQ1 and WoW, and it thats pretty much all I did. Stare are health bars and press buttons.

[Anthem]

But it does get worse. If we take that example of 4th level spells, the FvS gets just one at level 8; Let's say either Cure Critical or FoM. This, while the Cleric had already been carrying three since level 7; Let's say Cure Critical and FoM and Death Ward.

By the time the FvS is carrying three level 4 spells (level 11), the cleric is already deciding which three level 6 spells to carry; Let's say Blade Barrier, Heal, and Mass Cure Moderate -- something the FvS won't be doing until level 15!

I'm not saying that an FvS does not make a fine healer as was asked in the OP. They can and do make fine healers, but I'm just pointing out that they're not Clerics, and don't have as many tricks up their sleeve for play style that involves any significant versatility in damage prevention, combat, crowd control, and buffs.

Nannybot is a heal-only spec in any game. A walking shrine at the expense of much offensive casting, combat, crowd control, etc. To me, it's a condescending name for a healer that can't or won't do anything else to help the party. To others it's the perfect build, and the title of "nannybot" is a badge of honour. It is what it is.

[clanqui]

But it does get worse. If we take that example of 4th level spells, the FvS gets just one at level 8; Let's say either Cure Critical or FoM. This, while the Cleric had already been carrying three since level 7; Let's say Cure Critical and FoM and Death Ward.

Except that of those three, only cure critical needs to be castable by spell points to get full effect (i.e. meta's+enhancements+potency+level adds). Most buffs only get increased duration, which really doesn't matter.

At the end of the day, the FvS can do everything the cleric does as long as they invest in scrolls+wands to cover the spells they don't have. The cleric can do everything the FvS can do, but needs to invest in sp pots to keep up with the deeper sp pool.

Unfortunately for the cleric, spell point pots are orders of magnitude more expensive than the buff scrolls and wands the FvS needs to buy.

[moops]

To add to my previous post,
Beyond healing,

If I was the last person standing in part 4 of Shroud, Id prefer to have my cleric.

If I was the last person standing in part 5 of Shroud, Id prefer to have my FVS.

Both classes are awesome in their own ways, if you go beyond what they can do as healers.

[Anthem]

[...]
At the end of the day, the FvS can do everything the cleric does as long as they invest in scrolls+wands to cover the spells they don't have. The cleric can do everything the FvS can do, but needs to invest in sp pots to keep up with the deeper sp pool.
[...]

Interesting idea. I've never been much of a fan of managing many different types of scrolls (Heal and MCMW I can deal with), but does "scrolling it" scale much after 4th level spells? Like I said, I only got my FvS to level 9 before going back to cleric, so taking level 6 spells for example, can scrolls replace:

Banishment (wilth a usable DC)
Blade Barrier (with metas / potency)
Cometfall (with metas / potency)
Heal (with metas / potency)
MCMW (with metas / potency)
Harm (with metas / potency)
Symbols (with a usable DC)

If so, I'll have to take a second look at FvS, but if not, then FvS is designed for an entirely different kind of play style from clerics.

[spyderwolf]

Except at L6. I'm having a hard time making spell selections there. Other than that, still more spell slots than I need by high level.

comet fall blade barrier heal,,, whats so hard about that? you dont NEED all 4 cure masses , 3 out of 4 work just fine.

[Creeper]

Interesting idea. I've never been much of a fan of managing many different types of scrolls (Heal and MCMW I can deal with), but does "scrolling it" scale much after 4th level spells? Like I said, I only got my FvS to level 9 before going back to cleric, so taking level 6 spells for example, can scrolls replace:

Banishment (wilth a usable DC)
Blade Barrier (with metas / potency)
Cometfall (with metas / potency)
Heal (with metas / potency)
MCMW (with metas / potency)
Harm (with metas / potency)
Symbols (with a usable DC)

If so, I'll have to take a second look at FvS, but if not, then FvS is designed for an entirely different kind of play style from clerics.

Using the scrolls on a FVS would be the same potency as using them on the Cleric that you switched back to. It's just unfortunate that you had to purchase FVS and level all the way to 9 before deciding that the spell selection was a big turn off for you when all that information was in the compendium and on the forums.

[spyderwolf]

Wrong - There is many more undead quests in DDO.

To name a few:

Delera's Graveyard - Most of the quests in there.
Catacombs
Inferno of the Damned
Temple of Vol
Litany of the Dead
Xorian Cipher
The Depths series in House Denieth
Necropolis you named but there is a lot of quests in there.
House Phiarlan quests - some of them
House Kundarak quests - some of them
House Jurasco quests - some of them
Subteranne (slayer area)

There are several undead quests in game. Like I said earlier maybe 30% to 35% and that is substantial.

and none of it is relevant at end game. and if you arent comparing the classes at end game then the comparison means nothing, leveling up taking 1-2 weeks . you stay capped for years. the fvs is more powerful than the celric. spell slots mean nothing. you can take every spell thats needed . and use scroll/wnd for anything thats a buff/removal(greater restore,poision,etc,etc) thats occasionally needed.

[soupertc]

To add to my previous post,
Beyond healing,

If I was the last person standing in part 4 of Shroud, Id prefer to have my cleric.

If I was the last person standing in part 5 of Shroud, Id prefer to have my FVS.

Both classes are awesome in their own ways, if you go beyond what they can do as healers.

a fair and balanced post....to bad we don't see this more often. Saying one class is more powerful than the other is pretty stupid...I think they both have there places. Anyone who knows how to play the game will have a potent toon...cleric or FvS. I think either way we will revist this debate if/when clerics get their domains and love they deserve.

[clanqui]

Interesting idea. I've never been much of a fan of managing many different types of scrolls (Heal and MCMW I can deal with), but does "scrolling it" scale much after 4th level spells? Like I said, I only got my FvS to level 9 before going back to cleric, so taking level 6 spells for example, can scrolls replace:

Banishment (wilth a usable DC)
Blade Barrier (with metas / potency)
Cometfall (with metas / potency)
Heal (with metas / potency)
MCMW (with metas / potency)
Harm (with metas / potency)
Symbols (with a usable DC)

If so, I'll have to take a second look at FvS, but if not, then FvS is designed for an entirely different kind of play style from clerics.

6th is one spell level where there is a legitimate need to sacrifice. But it's not that great of a sacrifice really. Banishment is situationally very useful, and the one spell i really miss on an Fvs. But it is only situational, and there are always other ways to kill stuff. BB everyone takes, Heal same, comet, mostly the same. Mass cures are fungible, most FvS take MCLW, MCSW, and MCCW instead, which is all you need since you can't spam more than three due to the timers. Harm is pretty much a tax on not doing your math due to the lack of metas, and the symbols aren't much better, although persuasion is mildly better than command once in a great while.

[Anthem]

Using the scrolls on a FVS would be the same potency as using them on the Cleric that you switched back to. It's just unfortunate that you had to purchase FVS and level all the way to 9 before deciding that the spell selection was a big turn off for you when all that information was in the compendium and on the forums.

Are you trolling me? Because the FvS only mems a small subset of spells, the question was whether an FvS casting from scrolls to "make up for it" could replace the Cleric's memorized spells that benefit from metas, potency, criticals. Not whether an FvS or a Clr cast scrolls any differently.

And if I criticized the FvS without at least giving it a fair try? That would hardly seem fair. It seemed like a good idea at the time, and it turns out they're not my cup of mead. I learned their strengths and weaknesses first hand -- and for a healer, I think playing every class is important for that very reason.

[Anthem]

[...]Banishment is situationally very useful, and the one spell i really miss on an Fvs. But it is only situational [...]

"Situations" like the whole Vale, the whole Quarter, Reaver's Refuge, and anywhere you come across an outsider?

Really, I swear I'm not saying FvS are gimp or anything. In fact, I know they can be built to be outstanding (and sometimes better) in almost any traditional cleric role (or two) at a time, but by design and by definition, they don't do them all at once like a cleric can.

edit:
And I should add for good measure and all fairness that the FvS SP advantage no doubt makes them extremely valuable in undisciplined PUGs - I do often envy the ability of FvS to throw the big heals or spot cures around on a group that won't stay bunched up for mass heals! (that is to say, most PUGs).

[Creeper]

Are you trolling me? Because the FvS only mems a small subset of spells, the question was whether an FvS casting from scrolls to "make up for it" could replace the Cleric's memorized spells that benefit from metas, potency, criticals. Not whether an FvS or a Clr cast scrolls any differently.

No, no, not at all, but I can see how someone would think that I was, and apologize for the way in which I worded the post. I was only assuming that on your Cleric you have once used the scrolls you mentioned and was only pointing out that they would be no different than if used on a Favored Soul. This way you already know how effective they are (the scrolls) because you have a Cleric. Asking someone else how well the scrolls work will only get you so far, when you can easily see for yourself and come to your own direct conclusion.

[clanqui]

"Situations" like the whole Vale, the whole Quarter, Reaver's Refuge, and anywhere you come across an outsider?

No, those are situations where it can be used. Not situations where it should be used. There are lots and lots of ways to kill mobs, and a single target save or die will save is only going to be optimal for a fairly small slice of those, even if it is against a fairly common target type.

But yes, banishment is the one spell I do truly miss on my caster Fvs.

[bobbryan2]

"Situations" like the whole Vale, the whole Quarter, Reaver's Refuge, and anywhere you come across an outsider?

anywhere you come across an outsider...

Like Amrath?

Oh wait. Or any epic quest...

So pretty much the entire END GAME.

[knightgf]

But as a heal bot, a FVS wins easy, but no one needs a heal bot.

I think the crowd in the Harbor/Korthos chat would beg to differ. Be careful not to say that while your in there; otherwise you'll make the little kids there angry.

[azrael4h]

Indeed. The thing I see most while in the Harbor is "LF Healer/Cleric". When I ran a Cleric, I'd get a dozen invites in there from all kinds of pugs. I've told a few of the horror stories already here. Needless to say, I didn't run my Cleric with PUGs.

I've ran a couple Clerics on up there. Today, I tried a FvS (used Vet status to get level 4 quick). I immediately logged off, got on my Cleric, and sent her stuff to the FvS. I liked it that much better. Now to be fair, I liked playing with a Cleric (when not being harassed for heal-bot duties). Perhaps is the less chance of having spammed invites to heal a group who likes to run back and forth in active traps. Perhaps it's that my FvS is built with considerable more DDO experience, and with a better DPS, so that she's about on par with my Paladin back at level 4, with fairly decent healing ability and self-buffing. Or the 400+ sp, meaning I can rush though fairly easily on solo. But I do like playing the FvS more.

Of course, I like my new Monk far more than any other melee, and I have heard many in the chats deride them as useless. I have no clue, I just like playing mine. I like my Paladin as well, though she'll be more for guild use now, as will my Rogue.

[Loceish]

Once you get your superior ardor VIII belts from Amrath, MCCW and MCSW are all I use.

Err why not use Rahkir's Sash? It gives superior efficacy VIII which works on healing and damage spells, not to mention that belt comes with archmagi. Don't tell me its for the epic set bonus of 3 more turn undeads :P



Back on topic, most good fvs healers I know, have played a cleric beforehand. The lower sp bar, forces you to learn how to manage your mana.

I personally believe DV's to be a flashy thing thats not worth the enhancement points. I used it purely with leftover points on my cleric. If there were enhancements for extend, or quicken, I would likely only have lvl 1 dv's. I certainly do not invest in having 20 of them. If you have a blue bar, it is your responsibility to make sure it lasts. Not hard at all to increase your efficiency.

[Visty]

Err why not use Rahkir's Sash? It gives superior efficacy VIII which works on healing and damage spells, not to mention that belt comes with archmagi. Don't tell me its for the epic set bonus of 3 more turn undeads :P

because sup ardor is 75% while sup efficiency just 50% is

[Emili]

To add to my previous post,
Beyond healing,

If I was the last person standing in part 4 of Shroud, Id prefer to have my cleric.

If I was the last person standing in part 5 of Shroud, Id prefer to have my FVS.

Both classes are awesome in their own ways, if you go beyond what they can do as healers.

This... is very much accurate