How do Clerics heal better than FvS?

[Visty]

Question: How in your opinion is turn undead flawed?

I have a level 19 cleric currently and I have built him as a healer with superior turn undead specifications. Except for named undead like the "Black Abbot" or the end boss in Madstone Crater I can turn any undead in the game bar none one any difficulty. So explain to me how that is flawed?

in the same way the antiundead-paladin-pre is:
you focus your char on a thing which you only encounter in like 10% of the game if even

[shores11]

Clerics get the spells one level earlier (not a huge deal), get all the Cure line of spells for free (so they have all the mass cures, and have plenty of room for buffs. My FvS is very delayed and restricted in which buffs to take when: just got Deathward at level 16 and only has mass cure light so far).
Clerics get enhancements to reduce the cost of (the already low cost on) Empower Healing, the only meta that works on Heal and Mass Heal.
Clerics can spend turns to do Divine Healing (minor heal over time), Divine Cleansing (remove disease/poison/etc), and/or Divine Vitality (restore some of another casters SP).
And, if a certain spell is needed that they don't normally carry, they can swap out and get it. They just have a lot more versatility over a FvS in terms of buffs and whatnot. As far as pure healing goes, it doesn't matter between the two usually. Clerics are going to be more efficient, but FvS have the sp to throw around.

Good feedback Fang...

This is it in a nutshell. The player obviously has some input into how good their cleric or FvS healer can be. I have both a cleric and an FvS that are just healers and I can atest to the fact that overall clerics are superior in healing for many of the reasons Fang just mentioned.

I do agree that clerics getting access to spells one level before FvS is not that big of a deal but the fact that clerics have more spells to choose from and the flexibility of changing them as needed is a huge plus (this is even a bigger deal than it is for a wizard/sorcerer). As a result on my FvS healer for example I do not learn any raise dead spells due to spell slots I only carry raise scrolls this allows me more slots for my healing spells.

The turn undead feature for clerics is huge as I rely on them not only for turning undead but for vitality and healing. They help a lot on healing and help to extand my SP further which in turn brings the FvS and cleric closer together in terms of the FvS having more SP.

So in summary I have made some choices on my FvS about what spells I can carry where as on my cleric I really have had not to make any choices because in part I have an abundance to select from.

[Xeraphim]

What makes Clerics superior as healers? What am I missing?

Clerics have a wider array of spells loaded at any given time, due to having 3 more spell slots per level than FvS on average. They have far less SP, but they really make up for it in spades with versatility. It's not that they are better healers, they are better situational mitigators and adaptors.

If only the preferable situations occur(aka a "Fair Weather" situation set), a FvS outshines a Cleric every sinlge time... but when the going gets rough, the Cleric has a lot more options to use to really pull things out of the fire(particularly their Capstone).

Again, to reiterate, FvS = Fair Weather Healer/Blaster; Cleric = Foul Weather Healer/Blaster.


Clerics get Turn Undead, which in DDO isn't useful unless they are on their 4th life cleric(TR Cleric 3x, then Cleric again), or unless they translate those Turns into DVs.

[Xeraphim]

in the same way the antiundead-paladin-pre is:
you focus your char on a thing which you only encounter in like 10% of the game if even

You must avoid the Necropolis like the plague... try hitting it for levels 8-14 sometime, it's wicked huge XP! .... if done right

I only hope they increase the XP output out there, my Monk likes to fist the Undead.

[shores11]

in the same way the antiundead-paladin-pre is:
you focus your char on a thing which you only encounter in like 10% of the game if even

First off you should make your point with accurate information kind sir. Undead is encountered much more than 10% in DDO. I would put it closer to 30% to 35% and regardless that was not the point.

It was said that turning undead was flawed. However if it is working even if the encounters with undead were 3% it is still working and therefore not flawed. Now if you want to argue that there is not enough undead encounters in the game that is something entirely different than what was originally said.

As I stated before turning undead is a good line to specialize in for your cleric as it works very very very well.

[bobbryan2]

First off you should make your point with accurate information kind sir. Undead is encountered much more than 10% in DDO. I would put it closer to 30% to 35% and regardless that was not the point.

It was said that turning undead was flawed. However if it is working even if the encounters with undead were 3% it is still working and therefore not flawed. Now if you want to argue that there is not enough undead encounters in the game that is something entirely different than what was originally said.

As I stated before turning undead is a good line to specialize in for your cleric as it works very very very well.

It's flawed because turning undead is actually a negative for the party as a whole. Unless you destroy undead (and I don't think you're saying that you can outright destroy any undead in the game)... the fear effect is actually a buff for the enemies. They run away from you in opposite directions, prolonging the fight, wasting your buffs, and at worst, seperates your party and causes them to take more damage when they unfear.

Why anyone would want to make a group of creatures scatter is beyond me.

[Anderei]

Turn undead destroys undeads if turning lvl is quite above them, don't know the maths for it. Still doesn't make it incredible useful, especially if you run lvl approperiate content. And even if you make a build where it works, how many quests its actually useful? Yes you'll own necropolis and caverns of korromar, but thats it.

[Visty]

You must avoid the Necropolis like the plague... try hitting it for levels 8-14 sometime, it's wicked huge XP! .... if done right

I only hope they increase the XP output out there, my Monk likes to fist the Undead.

i dont avoid it but i rather kill the mobs then make them run away

[soloist12]

Of course, a cleric does much better just sitting back, healing, throwing the occasional BB or cometfall.
That being said, cleric play is a lot easier. As stated before, you can get the cost of the Empower Healing meta down to an additional 4 points. Blade barrier is still one of the best sources of damage and a cleric can just as easily fit in empower and maximize.

Are you serious? An FvS with a maxed out wis built for offensive spells is much better than your cleric. We have the same wis caps just so you know, only FvS has more sp.

FvS play is a lot easier, I'm sorry to say. You can get your heal costs down, sure, but FvS can get their empowers down in similar fashion.


The main issue is most people don't know how to build an FvS to focus on either spells or melee. They just go with a 14 ability score spread at creation. Once a spell-built FvS picks up Heal/Blade Barrier/Destruction and a Sup Potency 6 item at level 14, it's pretty much over. You're only limits are your party members.

And to add what some have already said, an FvS doesn't need any more spells than they are allotted - the key is to pick correctly: they're are a limited number if 'needed' spells.

[D-molisher]

..... But as a heal bot, a FVS wins easy, but no one needs a heal bot.

If you need a healbot, then reroll your character.

Honestly FWS are more sp.
Clerics are more spells available.

Both got potential to be good healer, if a good player behind it.
Which to choose, well depends on playstyle.

My capped pure cleric got with twink gear 1910 sp, so not like hes ineffective.

[Hellllboy]

Are you serious? An FvS with a maxed out wis built for offensive spells is much better than your cleric. We have the same wis caps just so you know, only FvS has more sp.

Technically-FvS can only get a +2 bump in WIS (per enhancements) and a Cleric gets +3 Bump.

But one point of stat increase will not account for the massive mana pool that FvS gets in return. They are still superior to Clerics in many ways.

[akiraproject24]

After finishing my FVS I quickly reincarnated my cleric into something useful. Clerics have one thing that at least my FVS does not....1 more mass cure spell to spam when called for. On my cleric I had mass cure light, mod,serious and crit...my FVS only has light serious and crit. When the time comes to spam I can find myself on cooldown for all three however...If Im thoughtful I can give that xtra moment b4 mashing and always have one off cooldown or even though slow, I can squeeze a mass cure mod scroll in for good measure. With over 2800 sp though..I much prefer solo healing shroud on my FVS than I ever did on my cleric. Clerics dont outheal...they just more easily fit the xtra mass cure in to make spamming smoother.

On a side note with the full healing line and amp...I heal myself for free for like 77-264 on my healing word. When ransacking Bastion, Sins or any quest for that matter...my FVS outheals any cleric in that he heals without ever using sp or scrolls...which means more blades for the garbage.

[Xithos]

FvS wins the day. There are not enough good spells in DDO for the cleric's spell versatility to win that argument and the FvS has access to a an awesome free spot heal with the appropriate metamagics. I have both a 20 Cleric and a 20 FvS (in addition to the melee guy in sig) and the only good thing about the cleric at this point is divine intervention.

[Creeper]

With similar build focus, same player, I can't think of a reasonable situation where I would rather have a cleric than a favored soul. It’s an easy choice. Hopefully the new Cleric PREs coming out in November 2015 will help balance things back out.

IMO, Favored Soul > Cleric

They also have potential to be MUCH tougher than clerics.

[jmonty]

If you need a healbot, then reroll your character.

Honestly FWS are more sp.
Clerics are more spells available.

Both got potential to be good healer, if a good player behind it.
Which to choose, well depends on playstyle.

My capped pure cleric got with twink gear 1910 sp, so not like hes ineffective.

i hear ya.

my dwarf clr like 2283 sp and i'd roll a fvs but i'd hate to get all the gear and level one just for a little more sp and a jump ability. tbh i'd rather just buy mana pots when needed.

[D-molisher]

i hear ya.

my dwarf clr like 2283 sp and i'd roll a fvs but i'd hate to get all the gear and level one just for a little more sp and a jump ability. tbh i'd rather just buy mana pots when needed.

Bleeh ...
Seriously dude >> ransack weapon shipment for the bauble. ( 1 greater mmo pot use a rest )

[cinoaz]

Turn undead works, but it's the definition of "works" that things get sticky.

I did the research, you can find the post here

Can you turn undead, why yes.

Can you destroy undead, not very often, almost never at higher levels.

Will turned undead still get 3 attacks on you after being turned. Oh most certainly, and you loose your shield DR while turning..ouch, ouch, that hurt(3 attacks).

Will turned undead flee until they rubberband, and no longer be turned. But of course, all the time.

Will you get excoriated for turning undead forcing the group to chase after them...most certainty, every time.

Does FvS heal better than clerics....ahhhhhh, back on topic.....

[shores11]

It's flawed because turning undead is actually a negative for the party as a whole. Unless you destroy undead (and I don't think you're saying that you can outright destroy any undead in the game)... the fear effect is actually a buff for the enemies. They run away from you in opposite directions, prolonging the fight, wasting your buffs, and at worst, seperates your party and causes them to take more damage when they unfear.

Why anyone would want to make a group of creatures scatter is beyond me.

FLAWED - No, because you view something as a negative doesn't mean its flawed if it is working exactly as it is intended.

Two points.

1) I am saying that I am destroying undead depending on the level of the undead.

2) I agree that turn undead works similar to fear for undead but that is the way it is intended to work. So even if you do not like it, in fact it is not flawed as it is meant to work this way.

To address your point about scattering the party and causing them to take more damage when the unturn you my friend need to run with better players. I have been destroying and turning undead in DDO for over 4 years now and have never even come close to seeing what you are describing and in fact have never had anyone complain about me turning undead.

Lastly turning undead is a core component of D&D and one that I hope will always remain a part of DDO.

[shores11]

Turn undead destroys undeads if turning lvl is quite above them, don't know the maths for it. Still doesn't make it incredible useful, especially if you run lvl approperiate content. And even if you make a build where it works, how many quests its actually useful? Yes you'll own necropolis and caverns of korromar, but thats it.

Wrong - There is many more undead quests in DDO.

To name a few:

Delera's Graveyard - Most of the quests in there.
Catacombs
Inferno of the Damned
Temple of Vol
Litany of the Dead
Xorian Cipher
The Depths series in House Denieth
Necropolis you named but there is a lot of quests in there.
House Phiarlan quests - some of them
House Kundarak quests - some of them
House Jurasco quests - some of them
Subteranne (slayer area)

There are several undead quests in game. Like I said earlier maybe 30% to 35% and that is substantial.

[shores11]

Technically-FvS can only get a +2 bump in WIS (per enhancements) and a Cleric gets +3 Bump.

But one point of stat increase will not account for the massive mana pool that FvS gets in return. They are still superior to Clerics in many ways.

I agree to a point as a FvS is superior in that they have more SP, quite a lot more. But other than that they are not superior. Yes you can make a FvS be a very effective healer to the point where he alone can be a solo healer in just about any quest except the extreme raids that you need more than one in anyway.

Challenge: Take a really good player that has experience in playing the healer line for clerics and FvS and ask their feedback. I think you will find that the cleric is preferred as the healer due to the wider ability to heal and buff.

Now can a FvS be a superior offensive caster than a cleric. Maybe but that is soley based on superior SP and nothing else.