Ranged Combat Polish Ideas

[Logic]

I am excited to hear about the ranged combat polish that was mentioned during the state of the union address. The summary of this thread is that I am happy with ranged attack speed and damage (although a little boost wouldn't hurt) but I think ranged combat is too feat intensive and too class/race specific.

I had a 20 Elf arcane archer ranger and I was pretty happy with how that character performed. The DPS was less than my melee, but there are advantages of being far away from your enemy (Epic DQ!) so I was OK with it. For other quests I usally ranged during my 20s multishot and meleed for the other 100 seconds.

But as I went to TR into another ranged attacker I start looking at ranged builds. Basically any ranged build other than ranger requires a huge sacrifice of feats to perform on par (or worse) than a 20 ranger who does not need to sacrifice much.

For instance a Elf 20FvS would require 10 feats to become an arcane archer ranged attacker (Power attack, point blank shot, ranged weapon focus, mental toughness, bow strength, rapid shot, multi shot, improved critical ranged, precise shot, improved precise shot). But even if you give up all melee, healing, and defensive feats you can only get 7 feats.

I feel arcane archer is a must for any ranged attacker. 25 damage per shot is too much to give up (slay living arrows are 1/20 chance at 500 damage, works on undead and portals and everything). This forces you to be a high level ranger or elf and eliminates build diversity.

I would like to see more options for ranged attackers other than 20 ranger or Elf arcane archer and I think the biggest step towards this is reducing the number of required feats, reducing ranger capstone, and reducing arcane archer added damage.

Some Example Ideas
Remove the pre-req's power attack/combat expertise/ranged wep specialization for bow strength
Include weapon focus ranged and weapon focus thrown as a pre-req's for bard Warchanter
Possibly combine feats (combine rapid shot, rapid reload, quick throwing?)
Possibly combine feats (rapid shot and multi shot)
Possibly combine feats (precise shot and improved precise shot)
Reduce ranger capstone alacrity %, reduce arcane archer damage, and increase ranged alacrity for everyone
Allow multi shot to work for ranged weapons other than bows

Just some ideas. I look forward to the changes. Feel free to comment.

[isldur]

Sorry I do not like any of those suggestions.

[Ninetoes]

I This forces you to be a high level ranger or elf and eliminates build diversity.

Reduce ranger capstone alacrity %, reduce arcane archer damage, and increase ranged alacrity for everyone

Just a few notes. First off, the PnP arcane archer is even harder to achieve:

Only a select few individuals qualify to become arcane archers. A prospective arcane archer must be either an elf or half-elf and have a base attack bonus of +6. Additionally, he must have Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow or shortbow), and be able to cast 1st-level arcane spells.

So, arcane archer is already dumbed down to avoid both the racial AND the 1st level arcane spell requirements. Lets take a look at it in it's current form:

Grants the abilities to conjure returning magical arrows and fire True Strike arrows. Also grants +20 spell points. You may possess only one prestige enhancement line at a time for each class.
Cost: 4 action points
Spent: 16 action points
Requires One of: Mental Toughness, Elven Arcanum I, Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded I, Wizard Energy of the Scholar I, Bard Energy of Music I,
Requires All of: Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons

As you can see, the base pre-requisites for Arcane archer are FAR easier to meet, to the point where it's not even "Arcane" anymore, as anyone with a blue bar qualifies for it. The pen and paper version required some serious build gymnastics to pull off. Arcane Archer was never intended for anyone to just be able to "pick up", that is in fact what a Prestige Class is all about. Prestige Enhancements attempt to emulate this fact. It's difficult to implement properly because it's a racially based prestige class, not a class based one.


IIRC, the Ranger capstone isn't giving the correct bonus speed anyway when it's stacked with other haste-effects. I'd have to do some thread digging to find the posts clarifying this, it's already not WAI. I don't think slowing it down even further is the answer.

[Logic]

IIRC, the Ranger capstone isn't giving the correct bonus speed anyway when it's stacked with other haste-effects. I'd have to do some thread digging to find the posts clarifying this, it's already not WAI. I don't think slowing it down even further is the answer.

I think you are correct. On my 20 ranger the capstone feat only increased my shot rate by 10% (not 25% as the description says). I tested time to fire 400 arrows to calculate this.

[Xionanx]

If they really wanted to "Fix" ranged combat:

Across the board ranged combat speed increase to bring ranged combat speed up to a speed "similar" to THF. (this would effect ALL classess and ALL forms of ranged combat, thrown, bows, xbows, etc.)

Change "Manyshot" from a 20 second active ability to a 1 shot "Tactic" similar to cleave, trip, stunning blow, etc.. You press it and your next "Shot" adds X number of arrows then its on a 4-5 second cooldown. (as it SHOULD have been in the first place)

And I happen to agree with the above poster about the Capstone.. or better yet since rangers can effectively be TWF's OR "Ranged" why not give them 2 capstones that are mutually exclusive. The current one and another one which is more "melee" oriented.

And before people start screaming about the "imbalance" of increasing ranged combat speed, I have to point out that ranged combat requires 2 stats and doesn't have any power attack equivalent. Even IF a bow user had the exact same number of attacks a round as a TWF Tempest they would STILL do LESS DPS simply because of the lack of power attack and the need to split your stats on to hit and damage; where a TWF can go pure STR based.. etc etc.

[A_Sheep]

And before people start screaming about the "imbalance" of increasing ranged combat speed, I have to point out that ranged combat requires 2 stats and doesn't have any power attack equivalent. Even IF a bow user had the exact same number of attacks a round as a TWF Tempest they would STILL do LESS DPS simply because of the lack of power attack and the need to split your stats on to hit and damage; where a TWF can go pure STR based.. etc etc.

AND ranged weapons are weaker than their melee counterparts in both crit power (bow is +2, whereas picks, scimitars, rapiers, Falchions, and kukris are +3 and khopeshes are +4) and in base damage (when compared to THF weapons or when compared to two single-handed weapons). I completely agree that ranged wouldn't be OP if brought to a THF attack rate.

I think, though, the biggest problem with ranged weapons is that they can run and range and essentially 'exploit' the system (although it has never been classified as such officially). In PnP, an average charging person could go 60ft in a round, whereas an archer 'running and ranging' would only be moving 30 feet (move+attack). The only solutions I can think of are one of the following:

Make rangers move at half speed when firing (like casting?)
or
switch the attack system (would require rebalancing of many other things) to a pnp attack system where one stationary attack animation would give a person with a 20 BAB 4 rolls (+20/+15/+10/+5). Then they could implement rapid shot as a stance-like TWF equivalent which it is in PnP. The added bonus of this is that it makes AC and to-hit both more interesting stats past level 10 (as they are intended to be by the originators of the system). This would make running and ranging do potentially 1/4 the damage of standing still and firing and therefore still allow it, but discourage it's use in the general sense. Lag downside, heh. yeah... big lag downside!!

Only if running and ranging can be plugged up can they bring ranged fighting back to a reasonable position.

[A_Sheep]

And you should ask this guy about more Polish archery ideas:



http://www.nowakowskimemorial.org.pl...php?hps=postac

[Dylos_Moon]

Remove the pre-req's power attack/combat expertise/ranged wep specialization for bow strength
Include weapon focus ranged and weapon focus thrown as a pre-req's for bard Warchanter
Possibly combine feats (combine rapid shot, rapid reload, quick throwing?)
Possibly combine feats (rapid shot and multi shot)
Possibly combine feats (precise shot and improved precise shot)
Reduce ranger capstone alacrity %, reduce arcane archer damage, and increase ranged alacrity for everyone
Allow multi shot to work for ranged weapons other than bows.

There's an additional requirement that can be used for Bow Strength, Zen Archery but it's not currently implemented. But while I agree that Power Attack/Combat Expertise make little sense, Bow strength shouldn't be an easy feat to get without being a ranger (IMO ranger's shouldn't even get it for free.)

WF: Ranged should be a pre-req for Warchanter.

Rapid Shot, and Rapid Reload are different feats in pen and paper, being well trained in bows doesn't equate to being well trained in crossbows, or throwing weapons for that matter.

Rapid shot doesn't equate to being able to fire multiple arrows at once either, just one faster then someone less trained then you.

Improved Precise shot becoming part of Precise shot would be a bit overpowering, allowing archers to easily hit multiple targets at a much lower level.

Honestly, the Ranger Capstone shouldn't even increase ranged attack speed, it should be something entirely unrelated, I'm sure many rangers would have preferred a stacking +2 dex and +10 to all elemental resistances.

Manyshot cannot logically work with a crossbow, or a repeating crossbow, as you cannot load multiple bolts into such a device without causing it to jam. As for throwing weapons, knowing how to fire multiple arrows at once does not equate to knowing how to throw multiple throwing knives at once.

Honestly, what I believe should be done to fix ranged combat is something of the following.

Allow rangers, and non-rangers alike to purchase enhancements (with varying ranged combat feat requirements) which allow an archer to perform special attacks. Some of these could even be feats. For example, an AoE attack which requires manyshot and attacks multiple targets with your bow at once (within say a fireball's radius of your target), or an arrow shot at a target's ankle to trip them and adaptions of various tactic feats, which may or may not use dexterity to determine their DCs.

Also, making manyshot a stance which turns off if you move and has the same cooldown that it currently has could greatly increase the power of ranged combat in longer battles (and prevent kiting). This however might be a little strict as in some quests it could become useless.