A Swordmage - What to do?

[Varr]

Let me make a follow up suggestion genaricly......roll up a level 9 ranger. Establish yoursef as a solid melée tempest build two scimitar wielding elf. Get evasion and solid melée with wand healing at least. Then start adding wizard levels. You will establish your reputation (hopefully good) by the time your icon changes from ranger to wizard.

That build offers the most IMO as an elven split. Worst case sinario, you self haste and run around with a silver bow and many shot when things get rough as you back fill gear. (12/8 ranger/wiz would be ok too, but I prefer 9/11 ranger/wizard splits I've seen. Also might consider late to convert from tempest to full blond arcaine archer.)

[Gol]

Was thinking as much for the damage part, /snip/ but I guess there is no point for that.

Bingo, unless you're willing to go with 16+ caster levels.

How does Whirlwind fair in usefullness? (save for the high feat requirements)

IMO, useless.

How about Cleave/GCleave? I have some experience with cleaving but those seemed to hit like one or two targets and a bit randomly on those even...

IMO, useless.

STR: 17
DEX: 15
CON: 12
INT: 14
WIS: 8
CHA: 10

Maybe even drop Int some in the beginning... see what I can get from enhancements

Was thinking of getting "easy" +1 dex tome and then +6 item I'd reach 22 dex giving me +6 bonus to AC which is the max a mithril chain shirt allows... Any comments on this?

You need to do a full breakdown plan of AC, not just dex and armor. If you're not hitting 50/55+ at endgame, you might as well just have 20 AC for all the good it will do you. On a build like this with a lot of feats, your motivation for 15 starting dex should be to hit 17 with a +2 tome and qualify for the TWF feat chain.

Your best DPS-increasing feats are:
TWF, ITWF, GTWF, and most importantly Power Attack, regardless of race.

One of the other important things to note is that any battlemage build is VERY gear intensive. The time you invest grinding raid gear and building wealth for the expensive items will matter more as much as what feats you take and your stat distribution.

For what it's worth, my main toon is a Battle Mage. He's on myddo here. His gear is the most expensive of any of my characters and he's ground out more raids than any of my characters. You just need to be prepared to do some serious investing in a battlemage build for it to work AT ALL (IMO).

[MuinainenKoski]

I'd again recommend play a pure caster to 10 before making the multi, just to get a sense of how magic works.

EDIT: If you want to go rogue-splash for evasion, you can check out Impaqt's Battlecaster build for some other insights. He goes Monk instead of Rogue, so you'll have 2 less feats. But you'll have UMD, which is cush.

I've played a pure wizard sofar (lvl 6) and I'm not really enjoying it sofar. Due to low spellpoints I am unable to deal damage for more than few monsters or I'm forced to run content I outlevel by far (and I've seen lvl 1 barbarian clear those same dungeons while having easier time to begin with).

2 in rogue for evasion doesn't bode too well with my image of the character, mostly 'cos of the 7 levels of wizard being a requirement (4th level spells, stoneskin and wall of fire, however useless it might be) and sacrificing one level from fighter would mean that I drop Kensai II which I dont see being too beneficial either... even though I do see the benefit of having evasion itself.

[MuinainenKoski]

You need to do a full breakdown plan of AC, not just dex and armor. If you're not hitting 50/55+ at endgame, you might as well just have 20 AC for all the good it will do you. On a build like this with a lot of feats, your motivation for 15 starting dex should be to hit 17 with a +2 tome and qualify for the TWF feat chain.

Your best DPS-increasing feats are:
TWF, ITWF, GTWF, and most importantly Power Attack, regardless of race.

One of the other important things to note is that any battlemage build is VERY gear intensive. The time you invest grinding raid gear and building wealth for the expensive items will matter more as much as what feats you take and your stat distribution.

For what it's worth, my main toon is a Battle Mage. He's on myddo here. His gear is the most expensive of any of my characters and he's ground out more raids than any of my characters. You just need to be prepared to do some serious investing in a battlemage build for it to work AT ALL (IMO).

Bad Gol forgot to read again, the whole concept revolves around ONE blade, long sword would have been preferred for an Elf (Genasi would be my favourite but no such thing in Eberron, they use heavy blades and go for assault swordmage line) but due to how single weapon doesnt work unless its a two-hander thus THF instead of TWF. Same reason why I kinda have to ignore Varr's suggestion of a ranger variant. I'm trying to build a "swordmage" here but ofcourse due to the absolute lack of weapon enhancing spells I'm limited to self buffing ones.

I'm not well versed in the high end gear, but according to the Elven Bladesinger type of build that was linked earlier, the build could reach 44AC self buffed, assuming no twf feat its -1 to 43 and + combat expertice for tanking situations I guess it could reach around that 48-50 margin. Might not be great but should be "decent"...

I am prepared to item grind as there is prolly not much else in the endgame to begin with unless people suddenly start to RP when they ding 20 which I highly doubt :P

As for feat usage, this high amount of fighter feats opens up the possibility of maxing out combat related feats (stunning blow, improved trip?) and getting my weapon damage/hit up quite a bit coupled with Kensai enhancement line.

As a side note I love it how people are so helpful

[cyadra]

First problem is your INT is to low for a Wizzy and your CHA is to low for a Sorc.
Second, do you want to go TWF? Your dex is to low.
Third, your Con is to low for BOTH a caster OR a melee.
Fourth as a Elf/Drow whatever, how do you plan to heal yourself if needed?

Easiest solution:

Make a WF wizzy. High on STR, INT and CON.
Make him 2HF.
At the bare minimum I would go with a 16/4 split of Wiz/Fighter.
Go Run Delera's tomb over and over until you get a Carnifex Ax.

Other option:

Make a WF Sorc. High on STR, CHA, and CON.
Make him 2HF
Go with a 16/2/2 split of Sorc/Pally/rogue

(This option gives good saves)

[lazylaz]

Thanks for linking to your character Gol. Except for the fact mine is an elf and I'm still deciding on khopesh or scimitar (uses khopesh now) I think I'm heading on the right track.

MuinainenKoski, there's no reason to not go with a single weapon, though as has been pointed out it will reduce your melee damage potential. That's neither here nor there if you are able to play your character well. By the time you get to 20 you'll know your character very well!

As long as you take the basic feats (the ones you would normally take anyway) you can do what you want with any extras.

[sigtrent]

Of these, only Wall of Fire, Scorching Ray, and your Missiles don't allow saves. And for all of these, you have so few caster levels (and an incredibly small SP pool with which to cast them) that the damage output here is completely worthless. Plus, I don't see any planned feats anywhere in the thread, but measuring caster DPS with 2 digits means you're in the entirely wrong ballpark of spell damage.

I don't agree with this advice.

Firewall, MM and Scorching ray all max out in damage well before you max out in level and these are commonly used damage spells. (MM a bit less so but the other two are very common)

They are not useless at all so long as you focus on cranking up the output from them as much as you can. On a spell sword type character you use them when regular DPS is not cutting the mustard. The DPS on a scorching Ray is fr greater than on a sword swinging character, it just can't be sustained very long. It is also able to connect on some creatures that are for various reasons difficult to melee (for instance they are not standing next to you) On epic, from what I hear this advice is more to the point and even trash mobs have so many HP its futile to take single shot spells, but I've not done it myself so I can't confirm. Often what I hear about this or that turns out to be something of an exaggeration.

[MuinainenKoski]

First problem is your INT is to low for a Wizzy and your CHA is to low for a Sorc.
Second, do you want to go TWF? Your dex is to low.
Third, your Con is to low for BOTH a caster OR a melee.
Fourth as a Elf/Drow whatever, how do you plan to heal yourself if needed?

Easiest solution:

Make a WF wizzy. High on STR, INT and CON.
Make him 2HF.
At the bare minimum I would go with a 16/4 split of Wiz/Fighter.
Go Run Delera's tomb over and over until you get a Carnifex Ax.

Other option:

Make a WF Sorc. High on STR, CHA, and CON.
Make him 2HF
Go with a 16/2/2 split of Sorc/Pally/rogue

(This option gives good saves)

I'll let that WF part pass this time as anyone who read the first few posts should know :P

Then first of all:
How is my int too low for self buffing (as established that damage dealing is not an option) where I am able to cast lvl 4 spells (caster level 7) and I have 14 int + 6 from possible items?

Second of all:
Why would my dex be too low for TWF (let alone why would I care 'cos I'm not going to dual wield as stated by the very first post), Most TWF builds I see start with 15 dex and go with +2 tome for 17 and then just leave it there...

Third of all:
I am aware that my con is a bit low, which is why I was asking for more constructive feedback on my ability scores instead of "lol roll WF".

Fourth of all:
As stated I was trying to go the UMD route for wands/scrolls for self healing and hope not to take too much damage :P Not sure if it will work but atleast it is not conflicting my character concept which is as the most important part of the character itself.

[FuzzyDuck81]

If you're planning on mostly melee with spells for buffs, your best bet as an elf would probably be a fighter 12 / bard 8 build, and go for warchanter & kensai 2 using falchions, you'd be a very capable melee'er with some useful buffs for yourself & party & good self-sufficiency.

Unfortunately what's good in PnP isnt always great here

[MuinainenKoski]

Thanks for linking to your character Gol. Except for the fact mine is an elf and I'm still deciding on khopesh or scimitar (uses khopesh now) I think I'm heading on the right track.

MuinainenKoski, there's no reason to not go with a single weapon, though as has been pointed out it will reduce your melee damage potential. That's neither here nor there if you are able to play your character well. By the time you get to 20 you'll know your character very well!

As long as you take the basic feats (the ones you would normally take anyway) you can do what you want with any extras.

I've searched and asked around and found out there is NO point using single weapon at all because using two-handers doesn't take anything from your damage output and not using a shield with one handed weapon is plain silly if not stupid provided you dont dual wield. And that fights against the character concept AND I'm asking these questions not to purposefully gimp myself following some of the less-seriously parts of my concept.

[MuinainenKoski]

If you're planning on mostly melee with spells for buffs, your best bet as an elf would probably be a fighter 12 / bard 8 build, and go for warchanter & kensai 2 using falchions, you'd be a very capable melee'er with some useful buffs for yourself & party & good self-sufficiency.

Unfortunately what's good in PnP isnt always great here

Yeah I know, though bard is not my cup of tea and I do not get all the buffs I'd want from bard (atleast to name shield and stoneskin, might not be much but still) and I'd have to ignore the whole damage aspect (I might be able to slap a spell or two in some groups).

As for PnP, I have been aware that PnP kinda breaks when you go to high magic and beyond :P Not to mention DDO's extra attacks which break the balance a bit more also.

[Siskel]

I have been following Tukaw's build which is a 16 Sor/2 Pal/2 Rog. While this is not exactly what you are looking for as it uses WF, you may find some useful information. The build is a blast and being able to self heal makes a difference. WF also get access to Power Attack enhancements. Take a look and see if anything in there will help out your build.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=181901

[Calebro]

Unfortunately what's good in PnP isnt always great here

And unfortunately this is true.
I've seen many comments on your concept for the character, or your idea of the character, etc.

The main thing you need to remember is that these forums are mostly populated by the min/maxers, or as we'd call them in PnP, the munchknis. The reason for this is because this game, unlike PnP, doesn't take RP into account. It's strictly hack 'n slash style, so the munchkins are revered instead of scorned.

If you were truly dead set on a fleshy combo, I really can't stress the suggestion for halfling enough. a 1 rogue/2 monk/17 wiz can have amazing potential if built properly, with 9th level spells, the ability to melee to save SP for the fights when you need it, and dragonmarks to heal yourself (because you WILL be last on the healers list if in melee). **edit: I'm not saying change your entire concept, but the halfling dragonmarks are a huge boon, and the enhancements to SA damage help to boost your melee damage to a respectable level a little bit.

The reason that you haven't liked your caster yet is because you haven't reached the sweet spot yet. You said you're 6th level I believe. Next level, at 7th, you'll enter that sweet spot, and it'll be smooth sailing from there.

[cyadra]

I'll let that WF part pass this time as anyone who read the first few posts should know :P

Then first of all:
How is my int too low for self buffing (as established that damage dealing is not an option) where I am able to cast lvl 4 spells (caster level 7) and I have 14 int + 6 from possible items?

Second of all:
Why would my dex be too low for TWF (let alone why would I care 'cos I'm not going to dual wield as stated by the very first post), Most TWF builds I see start with 15 dex and go with +2 tome for 17 and then just leave it there...

Third of all:
I am aware that my con is a bit low, which is why I was asking for more constructive feedback on my ability scores instead of "lol roll WF".

Fourth of all:
As stated I was trying to go the UMD route for wands/scrolls for self healing and hope not to take too much damage :P Not sure if it will work but atleast it is not conflicting my character concept which is as the most important part of the character itself.

1. Using a wizzy/sorc to self buff up to caster level 4 is really a bad idea. First, they aren't the best buffers in the game. Second what 4th level spell is really going to help out your level 16+ character. Third, most of the spells that can help you will be useless when you party with someone who really can buff you correctly, or where you not planning on grouping or not planning on taking this character past a certain level.

2. If you are not going to go 2wf then why even bother with that much DEX? AC becomes meaningless as you level up and hit points become more and more important.

4. If you are going the UMD route you really should throw rogue in there, and since UMD works off of CHA you might want to bump that up. HEck it might just be easier to throw in a level of pally or ranger and not even worry about UMD if you worry about the healing. Also, you will take lots of damage, whether you like it or not, if you are in the front line or the back sooner or later you will take a lot of it.

[MuinainenKoski]

1. Using a wizzy/sorc to self buff up to caster level 4 is really a bad idea. First, they aren't the best buffers in the game. Second what 4th level spell is really going to help out your level 16+ character. Third, most of the spells that can help you will be useless when you party with someone who really can buff you correctly, or where you not planning on grouping or not planning on taking this character past a certain level.

2. If you are not going to go 2wf then why even bother with that much DEX? AC becomes meaningless as you level up and hit points become more and more important.

4. If you are going the UMD route you really should throw rogue in there, and since UMD works off of CHA you might want to bump that up. HEck it might just be easier to throw in a level of pally or ranger and not even worry about UMD if you worry about the healing. Also, you will take lots of damage, whether you like it or not, if you are in the front line or the back sooner or later you will take a lot of it.

1. As I said, the self buffing mostly helps the other classes save SP for things they can do better than you (casting high damage spells when needed) and for self concept and maybe giving buffs for group which doesnt have the classes in question (though the sp might not last for long :P)

2. Because dex is basically free for an elf, points from 10 to 16 cost as much as raising str from 8 to 14. Do I want 1 str (to 18) or 4 dex? I'd go for the dex.

4. As I wrote before, the splash is 12F/7W/1R or the other route was 8F/11W/1R. I feel that somehow 16-17W/X builds are wizards no matter how you look at them.

I've seen here that most people advice against spelldamage at CL11 so the 12F one seems more tempting. Though spells like Scorching Ray is maxed at lvl 11 and thus would yield okay results if enhanced correctly... Still would need more feedback on the experience of lvl 11~/X wizards.

[Calebro]

Still would need more feedback on the experience of lvl 11~/X wizards.

Unfortunately, you're probably not going to see very many responses that aren't from a WF.

[MuinainenKoski]

Unfortunately, you're probably not going to see very many responses that aren't from a WF.

Well WF caster experience is the same as non-WF save for repair spells which I can ignore :P So any feedback would be welcome. Is there a damage dealing (be it only occasionally) build with 10ish levels in wizard/sorc?

[Calebro]

Well WF caster experience is the same as non-WF save for repair spells which I can ignore :P So any feedback would be welcome. Is there a damage dealing (be it only occasionally) build with 10ish levels in wizard/sorc?

There's a guild leader somewhere on the forums that has an elven 10/10 ftr/wiz somewhere. The toon is in his sig. Keep an eye open for him and send a PM asking.

[lazylaz]

I've searched and asked around and found out there is NO point using single weapon at all because using two-handers doesn't take anything from your damage output and not using a shield with one handed weapon is plain silly if not stupid provided you dont dual wield. And that fights against the character concept AND I'm asking these questions not to purposefully gimp myself following some of the less-seriously parts of my concept.

The question then is if you've found that using a single weapon is pointless then why do you want to? You'll always be a secondary melee anyway so I stand by what I said. My melee mage is currently khopesh and shield so the AC for now is useful but will be two hand in couple of levels when I've fixed her con and hps. I know that isn't a useful comparison to you but you should know about what other people are doing.

Essentially, I think both our characters wont be terribly strong at the end but fun is the key. Oh, and the kindness of strangers.

[Calebro]

Well WF caster experience is the same as non-WF save for repair spells which I can ignore :P So any feedback would be welcome. Is there a damage dealing (be it only occasionally) build with 10ish levels in wizard/sorc?

As I said earlier, I have a 7 wiz multi, and the spell damage is non-existent with the exception of the occasional firewall when things get hairy. Even with all then enhancements available (2nd or 3rd teir, depending on the enhancement in question) and a superior combustion IV ring, and maximized, it's only useful when there absolutely NEEDS to be more damage output involved, and then only in conjuction with melee.

You don't have the SP for anything more, and if you use it too early you don't have the SP for it when it's needed.
It becomes a last resort to try and save a poorly run quest.
That's it.