A Swordmage - What to do?

[MuinainenKoski]

I've been toying around with the idea of swordmage in my mind, mostly 'cos I like the concept of it. I was thinking of a bard but somehow all the singing and telling stories stuff of the class doesn't interest me that much. I've been trying to find some sort of melee+arcane split which would be atleast somewhat viable (not expecting to make the best dps out there etc.)

I'll explain a little of my goal:

An Elf (Long traditions with swordmages lore wise) using two-handed style (since single weapon is not viable at all) -> falcion (elf enhancements). Wearing either cloth or mithril chain shirt with elf enhancements for reduced spellfailure.

So far I've thought of two possible routes in building my character:

Fighter 8 / Wizard 12 (or 11 with one level of something... what?):

Pros:
- Decent spell output (maybe slap a firewall/unresistable autohit force spells)
- Tensers for no BAB gimping
- Fair amount of high level buffs (Can even save the Wizards/Bards mana for something else)
Cons:
- Dependant on tenser for melee / unable to cast during
- Loss of fighter levels, unable to pick Kensai II

OR

Fighter 12 / Wizard 8

Pros:
- Kensai II for improved melee output
- Sufficient self buffs (displacement, stoneskin, haste)
- High amounts of feats from fighter levels
- Lots of weapon enhancements from fighter line
Cons:
- Low spelldamage output (should I care? does under lvl 18~ wizard do any damage to begin with?)
- Loss of BAB from Wizard levels (Though Kensai II gives the same amount of +hit and extra 4 damage)
- Complete uselessness of save based spells

Both builds start with stat allocation somewhat like this:

32 Points:
STR: 16
DEX: 16
CON: 12
INT: 14
WIS: 8
CHA: 8

With 4 points to spend: Where? Assuming +2 tomes are doable (eventually)

I don't have any experience in the endgame thus I'd like to have some advice in the following problems:

- Do these builds gimp me completely?
- Does the spelldamage matter at all on either one of the builds?
- How much does the loss of heavy armor hurt (assuming I have decent amount of dex)
- Any alternate splash if I take one less level as wizard on either build only OR should I go for sorc instead (enough spells to choose from to be viable?)
- Should I start these builds with wizard or fighter levels? Or splash? (On 12F/8W I was thinking of 1 Wiz + 12 F + rest W, 12 W + 8 F on the 8F/12W one?)

[Spells]
LVL1:
- Mage Armor
- Shield
- Nightshield?
- Expedicious
+ 1 what?
LVL2:
- Blur
- Invis
- False Life
+ 1 What?
LVL3:
- Displacement
- Haste
- Rage?
+ Others, what?
LVL4:
- Stoneskin
- Firewall?
LVL5:
- Teleport
- Protection From Elements
+ others, what?
LVL6:
- Tenser
+ Others, what?

[sigtrent]

Your build ideas look workable to me. You won't set the world on fire but it should work and you should have fun with it...

Here is what to watch out for....
1. Your wizard levels are going to limit your HP somewhat and not provide any healing or the like. So you are squishy if the monsters can bypass your spell defenses (true seeing etc).

2. Your mana pool will not be very big. For solo quests or long elite group quests or if you want to use mana for something other than buffing, this could be an issue for you. Once your mana runs out you feel a bit like a weakish fighter.

3. Stat points may be spread kind of thin. Elves are dex oriented and your min stats are Str, Con and Int.

4. The armored caster thing works pretty well low and mid levels... at high levels it tends not to matter. Armor 8 bracers and the 12 AP you need for arcane fluidity start to make it look like a bad investment after a while, especially if you have a strong dex score.

5. You can't heal yourself. Lots of builds can't but often I think this is the up side that outweighs the other stuff on mixed class-type builds.

What is great about your build?
Tons of feats, that really lets you get creative in multi-specializing your character.

How can you address that stuff?
Well for starters a lot of spellsword builds are bard + fighter. Bards songs counteract the loss of BAB easily, they can self heal, they have most of the key buffs, and can UMD anything they can't cast. The only thing they don't have that a wiz or sorc does is damage spells. For that reason if you go spell sword, part of the reason should be getting access to damage spells and making good use of them.

The other thing would be to focus a bit more on damage spells. Pick an elemental line and crank it. A mid level wizard with MAX and Empower can do a decent percentage of the damage a higher level wizard can. you won't be able to sustain the spell DPS for long, but it will help against bosses (until you get to the late late game where some of the mobs have deep deep wells of HP and even full casters find spell DPS a waste of time.)

Work in one or two rogue levels so you can access UMD. This gives you self healing.

Be a WF... but its not in your style guide and I think style is important. But if you ignore the aestetics WF has a few more synergies for THF and for arcane spelswording.

[MuinainenKoski]

Thanks for the swift reply and opinions / tips

2. Your mana pool will not be very big. For solo quests or long elite group quests or if you want to use mana for something other than buffing, this could be an issue for you. Once your mana runs out you feel a bit like a weakish fighter.

Guess Its mostly for buffs others have to apply also, any mana saved by you from wizards leaves either longer run without rests or more damage spells for them?

5. You can't heal yourself. Lots of builds can't but often I think this is the up side that outweighs the other stuff on mixed class-type builds.

Work in one or two rogue levels so you can access UMD. This gives you self healing.

I guess working in one level of rogue (to begin with) for UMD might work also though getting only one and skipping evasion seems a bit silly. Maybe a level of bard for weak heal (better than nothing) ... but is it worth the charisma investment?

[Gol]

Warforged Wizard with multiclass splashing is the way to go. Start with this build, drop the TWF feats for THF feats and dump dex down to 8, put any leftover points in Con.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=215261

Warforged is the ONLY way to do this properly, IMO.

Oh, and NEVER use Tenser's. If you insist on something equivalent, get a couple pair of Madstone Boots. They're much better and don't use up a spell slot.

[MuinainenKoski]

Warforged Wizard with multiclass splashing is the way to go. Start with this build, drop the TWF feats for THF feats and dump dex down to 8, put any leftover points in Con.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=215261

Warforged is the ONLY way to do this properly, IMO.

Oh, and NEVER use Tenser's. If you insist on something equivalent, get a couple pair of Madstone Boots. They're much better and don't use up a spell slot.

As the previous replier noticed, the concept of Elf is more important to me than the actual minmaxing. But why WF? 'Cos of self healing? "Do X" is hardly constructive, atleast give reasons behind your opinions.

I wasnt aware of Madstone items, so than you alot for pointing that out. Would mean the 7(8) wizard build is a highly viable choise if I decide to drop the dps spell line (save for a few non-resistant spells, against targets that are resistant to physical maybe)

[Calebro]

As the previous replier noticed, the concept of Elf is more important to me than the actual minmaxing. But why WF? 'Cos of self healing?

I wasnt aware of Madstone items, so than you alot for pointing that out. Would mean the 8 wizard build is a highly viable choise if I decide to drop the dps spell line (save for a few non-resistant spells, against targets that are resistant to physical maybe)

If you chose to go with the 8 caster levels, spell damage becomes almost nonexistent.
I have a halfling 3 monk/7 wiz/10 rogue (currently 3/7/5) that I log in as an alt once in a while. He's GREAT FUN, and much more capable than he appears at a glance, but his spells are almost exclusively buffs. He only drops a firewall when things get hairy, because his sp pool is too small to use them often and still have enough to rebuff if/when he gets hit with a dispel.
FoL, it's associated finisher, and maximized dragonmarks keep him alive.
ITWF (soon to be GTWF), wind stance sneak attacks and good wraps keep him in the top 1-3 in kill count.
Uber AC, evasion with a huge reflex, and arcane buffs keep damage to a minimum.
This all holds true until high level content, where his effectiveness is slightly lessened. He runs with friends and guildies almost exclusively because groups can sometimes be hesitant to give him a chance.

[Gol]

As the previous replier noticed, the concept of Elf is more important to me than the actual minmaxing. But why WF? 'Cos of self healing? "Do X" is hardly constructive, atleast give reasons behind your opinions.

First off, I'm sorry for not reading the OP in enough detail to pick up that Elf was so important. My bad.

Second, yes, because of self healing. 11 Wizard levels gets you no-fail no-interrupt (quickened) reconstruction. Spend the APs and get 170pt scroll whipped reconstructs as well.

I agree with the Elf thing in principle. I frequently played Gish-types in PnP campaigns. However, due to the restrictions that DDO presents, and with the crazy power scale (compared to P&P), it's just not viable.

[sigtrent]

Guess Its mostly for buffs others have to apply also, any mana saved by you from wizards leaves either longer run without rests or more damage spells for them?

If you have another wiz or soc in the party that is optimal, and one of you is going to save the other some mana, at least thats how I find it works out. (I don't have a spellsword but I have a fighter with cleric levels and its kind of similar in that I handle some of the party healing but not enough to replace a real cleric.)

I have a "combat wizard" but he's mostly wizard and uses effect weapons or DPS tricks to do "decent" damage. Different kind of character although similar in that if there is another arcane in the group, I usually let them do most of the heavy casting and I fill the gaps and melee.

I guess working in one level of rogue (to begin with) for UMD might work also though getting only one and skipping evasion seems a bit silly. Maybe a level of bard for weak heal (better than nothing) ... but is it worth the charisma investment?

I'd go with the rogue 2, but it does cut into your casting or fighting in some way. Evasion is great to have on these types of characters, I'm adding it to my battle wizard currently as he can just get murdered by traps or area spells if I end up in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[transtemporal]

I think maybe the OP is talking about the Swordmage class from 4th edition, rather than a spellcaster that uses a sword. For those that haven't played 4e, a swordmage is a melee class (defender I think) that has caster-like powers and focuses them through a single light or heavy blade.

[MuinainenKoski]

I think maybe the OP is talking about the Swordmage class from 4th edition, rather than a spellcaster that uses a sword. For those that haven't played 4e, a swordmage is a melee class (defender I think) that has caster-like powers and focuses them through a single light or heavy blade.

Right on

The 3E version would propably be bladesinger but they are more of a flashy fightingstyle that incorporates multiple swirling blades in their dance of death. The 4th edition swordmage can either be assault swordmage (heavy blades preferred) or defending swordmage (medium blades like longswords preferred). They have a bond with their Sword (not swords) and thus I don't want to dual wield.

Swordmage incorporates magic with his blade in his attacks. Think of a melee class who does Int based magic damage in addition to weapon damage. He also uses his magic to shield himself and his allies and to close the gaps in the battlefield with a teleport or flight spell. So yeah its foremost a sword with magic not magic with sword

[lazylaz]

Right on

The 3E version would propably be bladesinger but they are more of a flashy fightingstyle that incorporates multiple swirling blades in their dance of death. The 4th edition swordmage can either be assault swordmage (heavy blades preferred) or defending swordmage (medium blades like longswords preferred). They have a bond with their Sword (not swords) and thus I don't want to dual wield.

Swordmage incorporates magic with his blade in his attacks. Think of a melee class who does Int based magic damage in addition to weapon damage. He also uses his magic to shield himself and his allies and to close the gaps in the battlefield with a teleport or flight spell. So yeah its foremost a sword with magic not magic with sword

Well, that's what I want too, almost.

I haven't looked at 4E yet. Maybe I can get some ideas.

[MuinainenKoski]

Well, that's what I want too, almost.

I haven't looked at 4E yet. Maybe I can get some ideas.

Check like forgottenrealms wiki for ideas and get a copy of 4th edition rulebook, Swordmage is located in a book called "Arcane Power".