A Swordmage - What to do?

[MuinainenKoski]

I've been toying around with the idea of swordmage in my mind, mostly 'cos I like the concept of it. I was thinking of a bard but somehow all the singing and telling stories stuff of the class doesn't interest me that much. I've been trying to find some sort of melee+arcane split which would be atleast somewhat viable (not expecting to make the best dps out there etc.)

I'll explain a little of my goal:

An Elf (Long traditions with swordmages lore wise) using two-handed style (since single weapon is not viable at all) -> falcion (elf enhancements). Wearing either cloth or mithril chain shirt with elf enhancements for reduced spellfailure.

So far I've thought of two possible routes in building my character:

Fighter 8 / Wizard 12 (or 11 with one level of something... what?):

Pros:
- Decent spell output (maybe slap a firewall/unresistable autohit force spells)
- Tensers for no BAB gimping
- Fair amount of high level buffs (Can even save the Wizards/Bards mana for something else)
Cons:
- Dependant on tenser for melee / unable to cast during
- Loss of fighter levels, unable to pick Kensai II

OR

Fighter 12 / Wizard 8

Pros:
- Kensai II for improved melee output
- Sufficient self buffs (displacement, stoneskin, haste)
- High amounts of feats from fighter levels
- Lots of weapon enhancements from fighter line
Cons:
- Low spelldamage output (should I care? does under lvl 18~ wizard do any damage to begin with?)
- Loss of BAB from Wizard levels (Though Kensai II gives the same amount of +hit and extra 4 damage)
- Complete uselessness of save based spells

Both builds start with stat allocation somewhat like this:

32 Points:
STR: 16
DEX: 16
CON: 12
INT: 14
WIS: 8
CHA: 8

With 4 points to spend: Where? Assuming +2 tomes are doable (eventually)

I don't have any experience in the endgame thus I'd like to have some advice in the following problems:

- Do these builds gimp me completely?
- Does the spelldamage matter at all on either one of the builds?
- How much does the loss of heavy armor hurt (assuming I have decent amount of dex)
- Any alternate splash if I take one less level as wizard on either build only OR should I go for sorc instead (enough spells to choose from to be viable?)
- Should I start these builds with wizard or fighter levels? Or splash? (On 12F/8W I was thinking of 1 Wiz + 12 F + rest W, 12 W + 8 F on the 8F/12W one?)

[Spells]
LVL1:
- Mage Armor
- Shield
- Nightshield?
- Expedicious
+ 1 what?
LVL2:
- Blur
- Invis
- False Life
+ 1 What?
LVL3:
- Displacement
- Haste
- Rage?
+ Others, what?
LVL4:
- Stoneskin
- Firewall?
LVL5:
- Teleport
- Protection From Elements
+ others, what?
LVL6:
- Tenser
+ Others, what?

[sigtrent]

Your build ideas look workable to me. You won't set the world on fire but it should work and you should have fun with it...

Here is what to watch out for....
1. Your wizard levels are going to limit your HP somewhat and not provide any healing or the like. So you are squishy if the monsters can bypass your spell defenses (true seeing etc).

2. Your mana pool will not be very big. For solo quests or long elite group quests or if you want to use mana for something other than buffing, this could be an issue for you. Once your mana runs out you feel a bit like a weakish fighter.

3. Stat points may be spread kind of thin. Elves are dex oriented and your min stats are Str, Con and Int.

4. The armored caster thing works pretty well low and mid levels... at high levels it tends not to matter. Armor 8 bracers and the 12 AP you need for arcane fluidity start to make it look like a bad investment after a while, especially if you have a strong dex score.

5. You can't heal yourself. Lots of builds can't but often I think this is the up side that outweighs the other stuff on mixed class-type builds.

What is great about your build?
Tons of feats, that really lets you get creative in multi-specializing your character.

How can you address that stuff?
Well for starters a lot of spellsword builds are bard + fighter. Bards songs counteract the loss of BAB easily, they can self heal, they have most of the key buffs, and can UMD anything they can't cast. The only thing they don't have that a wiz or sorc does is damage spells. For that reason if you go spell sword, part of the reason should be getting access to damage spells and making good use of them.

The other thing would be to focus a bit more on damage spells. Pick an elemental line and crank it. A mid level wizard with MAX and Empower can do a decent percentage of the damage a higher level wizard can. you won't be able to sustain the spell DPS for long, but it will help against bosses (until you get to the late late game where some of the mobs have deep deep wells of HP and even full casters find spell DPS a waste of time.)

Work in one or two rogue levels so you can access UMD. This gives you self healing.

Be a WF... but its not in your style guide and I think style is important. But if you ignore the aestetics WF has a few more synergies for THF and for arcane spelswording.

[MuinainenKoski]

Thanks for the swift reply and opinions / tips

2. Your mana pool will not be very big. For solo quests or long elite group quests or if you want to use mana for something other than buffing, this could be an issue for you. Once your mana runs out you feel a bit like a weakish fighter.

Guess Its mostly for buffs others have to apply also, any mana saved by you from wizards leaves either longer run without rests or more damage spells for them?

5. You can't heal yourself. Lots of builds can't but often I think this is the up side that outweighs the other stuff on mixed class-type builds.

Work in one or two rogue levels so you can access UMD. This gives you self healing.

I guess working in one level of rogue (to begin with) for UMD might work also though getting only one and skipping evasion seems a bit silly. Maybe a level of bard for weak heal (better than nothing) ... but is it worth the charisma investment?

[Gol]

Warforged Wizard with multiclass splashing is the way to go. Start with this build, drop the TWF feats for THF feats and dump dex down to 8, put any leftover points in Con.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=215261

Warforged is the ONLY way to do this properly, IMO.

Oh, and NEVER use Tenser's. If you insist on something equivalent, get a couple pair of Madstone Boots. They're much better and don't use up a spell slot.

[MuinainenKoski]

Warforged Wizard with multiclass splashing is the way to go. Start with this build, drop the TWF feats for THF feats and dump dex down to 8, put any leftover points in Con.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=215261

Warforged is the ONLY way to do this properly, IMO.

Oh, and NEVER use Tenser's. If you insist on something equivalent, get a couple pair of Madstone Boots. They're much better and don't use up a spell slot.

As the previous replier noticed, the concept of Elf is more important to me than the actual minmaxing. But why WF? 'Cos of self healing? "Do X" is hardly constructive, atleast give reasons behind your opinions.

I wasnt aware of Madstone items, so than you alot for pointing that out. Would mean the 7(8) wizard build is a highly viable choise if I decide to drop the dps spell line (save for a few non-resistant spells, against targets that are resistant to physical maybe)

[Calebro]

As the previous replier noticed, the concept of Elf is more important to me than the actual minmaxing. But why WF? 'Cos of self healing?

I wasnt aware of Madstone items, so than you alot for pointing that out. Would mean the 8 wizard build is a highly viable choise if I decide to drop the dps spell line (save for a few non-resistant spells, against targets that are resistant to physical maybe)

If you chose to go with the 8 caster levels, spell damage becomes almost nonexistent.
I have a halfling 3 monk/7 wiz/10 rogue (currently 3/7/5) that I log in as an alt once in a while. He's GREAT FUN, and much more capable than he appears at a glance, but his spells are almost exclusively buffs. He only drops a firewall when things get hairy, because his sp pool is too small to use them often and still have enough to rebuff if/when he gets hit with a dispel.
FoL, it's associated finisher, and maximized dragonmarks keep him alive.
ITWF (soon to be GTWF), wind stance sneak attacks and good wraps keep him in the top 1-3 in kill count.
Uber AC, evasion with a huge reflex, and arcane buffs keep damage to a minimum.
This all holds true until high level content, where his effectiveness is slightly lessened. He runs with friends and guildies almost exclusively because groups can sometimes be hesitant to give him a chance.

[Gol]

As the previous replier noticed, the concept of Elf is more important to me than the actual minmaxing. But why WF? 'Cos of self healing? "Do X" is hardly constructive, atleast give reasons behind your opinions.

First off, I'm sorry for not reading the OP in enough detail to pick up that Elf was so important. My bad.

Second, yes, because of self healing. 11 Wizard levels gets you no-fail no-interrupt (quickened) reconstruction. Spend the APs and get 170pt scroll whipped reconstructs as well.

I agree with the Elf thing in principle. I frequently played Gish-types in PnP campaigns. However, due to the restrictions that DDO presents, and with the crazy power scale (compared to P&P), it's just not viable.

[gavagai]

There are lots of more complicated builds and tri-classes, but here is a solid 28-points from Aranticus's "Templates for New Players" guide:

Elven Bladesinger

As a first character, I would rely on more fighter levels than Wiz levels. With the proper equipment, the low BAB and damage of the 12Wiz/8Fighter or 12Wiz/6FIghter/2Monk or Rog can be mitigated. But as a starter player, all the to-hit and damage benefits of Kensai II are great.

However, before starting this build I highly advise you to play a Wizard pure until level 10. Everyone fantastizes about a battlemage during the early levels, because magic frankly stinks until around level 7. Many players, though, forget about their desire to melee entirely once they get over that beginning hump. And many players regret losing or weakening their spells for a marginal ability to swing steel.

BTW: I currently have a couple melee arcanes now, and one elven one (playing towards 6Paladin/12Sorc/2Rog). I rarely get invited to parties, but it is hands-down more fun than any other character I've played.

[Calebro]

I disagree that WF is the "only" way to go, but that disagreement only allows for dragonmarked halflings to be added.
If you can't heal yourself, and you choose to play a caster icon in melee, you'll become a burden on the party by being a mana sponge.
It's all about perception, and a wiz or sorc doesn't "belong" in melee from anyone's view.
If you have some way to reliably heal yourself this is less of an issue.

An elven ftr/wiz has no way to do this reliably.

[Varr]

I play alot of melée mages.....kind of my thing.

Here are some rather general observations to keep in mind....

If your a melée wizard, your last in line for healing. You need.....to be self sufficent thru scroll, dragon mark, or nana healing. If not as a modest up modest ac toon, you will die alorlt and pick up a bad rep.

With most types of toon there are great, ok, and poor contributors. Ok is fine for most. Not melée mages....either become great or you'll struggle to find groups.

Much of the game played from level 15 on is raidcentric....again reputation can't be understated here unless your in a strong guild.

Lastly, like an ac grinding tank, battle mages require the best gear....it I'd a constant effort upgrading your gear.

Cross those bridges and you can have a tremendously fun time and have a flexability most can't achieve.

[Samiusbot]

I think your idea has a lot of merit. The fighter caster and I are old friends. You can of course do this to many different degrees depending on classes and races. And regardless of any misconceptions a stright wiz can even mix it up in a fight just fine if that is what you want to do.

See Sigtrent for a lot of goodness.
Added see Varr for other great things to keep in mind!

But how I would/am building this concept is a WF 6fighter/11 wizard/3 monk (light) using monk weapons until the mid/end game then switching to what ever makes the most sense at the time.

My path was 1 fighter 3 monk 7 wizard. The last level was a hump as this is on a TRed PC and the xp to Wall of fire was a time sink. But since getting WoF the game has again opened up to the relative speed of the first 9 levels.

GL

[lazylaz]

I have a character similar to what you are looking at running right now. Ultimately, she's going to be 12/6/2 wiz/fighter/ranger and at the moment she's 7/2/1. Oh, and she's an elf too. The starting stats were pretty similar to what you're looking at from memory.

Her solo ability has been good but at 128 hps so far she's been a tad on the squishy side. She's hammered through undead quests pretty well courtesy of wall of fire and being buffed to her eyeballs, but I ran her in a decent group through the Vons just recently and I really have no idea if she held her own or not since half the group were Tr'd.

At the end of the game I know there's enough gear to make her stronger and tougher but I recently almost lost my spine and nearly decided to forget about the rest of the melee levels and just go for 17 wiz. But I'm sticking it out because she's FUN to play!

edit: plenty of further responses while I was putting this up. Healing wise I acted as wand healer in a group when I had very bad feelings about a cleric we invited to a Korromar run. The ranger levels are for that sort of back up (makes me more useful) and for self healing.

[MuinainenKoski]

Thank you for the points people. Special thanks for gavagai for the bladesinger link!

Would one rogue/bard level for UMD and using scrolls/wands for self healing work?

Does TR'd stand for trancended?

Any experience on if a lvl 7(8) or 11(12) Wizard is able to deal any decent damage in endgame?

At level 11 I'd imagine the spells I'd use are non-saving throw ones for damage:

[Force]:
Magic Missile: 5d2+15 maxed out at 25
Chain Missiles: 6d4+6 maxed out at 30
Force Missiles: 4d6+8 maxed out at 32

Magic Missile seems to be the main damaging spell save for maximized due to most stable damage range?

[Fire/Ice]:
Fireball: 10d3+30 but cant count on non-savings with the int/caster level
Wall of Fire: 2d6+11 x 10 rounds = seems to be top dps?
Scorching ray: 12d6 no save and high with maximize
Cone of Cold: 12d6 reflex for half but same as fireball :/
Frost Lance: 12d10 fort save for half but saves are meh :/

[Acid/Lightning]:
Melfs: 24d4 but takes 24 seconds to deal damage?
Lightining Bolt: 10d3+30 like fireball, but harder to aim

Should I specialize in fire/ice if I plan to do damage?

For the 7 wizard levels version most spells wouldn't deal enough damage to begin with, save for occasional firewall for extra damage I guess...

I'm leaning towards the 12 fighter 7 wizard 1 rogue/bard build at the moment untill I get some feedback on the viability of those spells?

Does anyone have any pointers on what skills to invest on? I was thinking of: Balance, UMD, Intimidate (might be all I have points for?)

[Phidius]

Just want to echo what others have already said.

Self-healing on a battlemage cannot be underestimated, but while wands work great up till level 9 or so, you really need to have some way to return hitpoints that can be measured in the 100s rather than the 10s.

[Samiusbot]

Does TR'd stand for trancended?

TR == true Resurrection

[Gol]

Would one rogue/bard level for UMD and using scrolls/wands for self healing work?

Only for between fights or if you pull out of combat.

Does TR'd stand for trancended?

True Reincarnation. Ie, hit 20 and do it all over again with more build points.

Any experience on if a lvl 7(8) or 11(12) Wizard is able to deal any decent damage in endgame?

Not with spells you won't.

At level 11 I'd imagine the spells I'd use are non-saving throw ones for damage:

[Force]:
Magic Missile: 5d2+15 maxed out at 25
Chain Missiles: 6d4+6 maxed out at 30
Force Missiles: 4d6+8 maxed out at 32

Magic Missile seems to be the main damaging spell save for maximized due to most stable damage range?

[Fire/Ice]:
Fireball: 10d3+30 but cant count on non-savings with the int/caster level
Wall of Fire: 2d6+11 x 10 rounds = seems to be top dps?
Scorching ray: 12d6 no save and high with maximize
Cone of Cold: 12d6 reflex for half but same as fireball :/
Frost Lance: 12d10 fort save for half but saves are meh :/

[Acid/Lightning]:
Melfs: 24d4 but takes 24 seconds to deal damage?
Lightining Bolt: 10d3+30 like fireball, but harder to aim

Should I specialize in fire/ice if I plan to do damage?

For the 7 wizard levels version most spells wouldn't deal enough damage to begin with, save for occasional firewall for extra damage I guess...

Of these, only Wall of Fire, Scorching Ray, and your Missiles don't allow saves. And for all of these, you have so few caster levels (and an incredibly small SP pool with which to cast them) that the damage output here is completely worthless. Plus, I don't see any planned feats anywhere in the thread, but measuring caster DPS with 2 digits means you're in the entirely wrong ballpark of spell damage.

[MuinainenKoski]

Plus, I don't see any planned feats anywhere in the thread, but measuring caster DPS with 2 digits means you're in the entirely wrong ballpark of spell damage.

Was thinking as much for the damage part, and for feats I was thinking of waiting untill I decide if I want to be dealing damage. Extend and Mental Toughness from Wizard class feats come to mind for starters to help the buffing process and could prolly have squeezed in maximize or empower if the damage had been significant in any way... but I guess there is no point for that. I guess force spells would have been logical if I had gone with the WF and repair line...

How does Whirlwind fair in usefullness? (save for the high feat requirements)

How about Cleave/GCleave? I have some experience with cleaving but those seemed to hit like one or two targets and a bit randomly on those even...

Rethinking my stat allocation though:

STR: 17
DEX: 15
CON: 12
INT: 14
WIS: 8
CHA: 10

Maybe even drop Int some in the beginning... see what I can get from enhancements

Was thinking of getting "easy" +1 dex tome and then +6 item I'd reach 22 dex giving me +6 bonus to AC which is the max a mithril chain shirt allows... Any comments on this?

[lazylaz]

I have Extend and its not a great drain on SP when buffing, with empower coming soon. Forgetting to take Extend off before dropping a couple of firewalls is a pain though. I also have the fire/cold damage enhancements and a greater potentcy IV item. You are going to need to find gear to help.

Probably just consider the basic feats for melee for starters. I'm not sure how useful Cleave really is in the game, I've been taking it off my straight melees.

[sigtrent]

Guess Its mostly for buffs others have to apply also, any mana saved by you from wizards leaves either longer run without rests or more damage spells for them?

If you have another wiz or soc in the party that is optimal, and one of you is going to save the other some mana, at least thats how I find it works out. (I don't have a spellsword but I have a fighter with cleric levels and its kind of similar in that I handle some of the party healing but not enough to replace a real cleric.)

I have a "combat wizard" but he's mostly wizard and uses effect weapons or DPS tricks to do "decent" damage. Different kind of character although similar in that if there is another arcane in the group, I usually let them do most of the heavy casting and I fill the gaps and melee.

I guess working in one level of rogue (to begin with) for UMD might work also though getting only one and skipping evasion seems a bit silly. Maybe a level of bard for weak heal (better than nothing) ... but is it worth the charisma investment?

I'd go with the rogue 2, but it does cut into your casting or fighting in some way. Evasion is great to have on these types of characters, I'm adding it to my battle wizard currently as he can just get murdered by traps or area spells if I end up in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[gavagai]

Was thinking as much for the damage part, and for feats I was thinking of waiting untill I decide if I want to be dealing damage. Extend and Mental Toughness from Wizard class feats come to mind for starters to help the buffing process and could prolly have squeezed in maximize or empower if the damage had been significant in any way... but I guess there is no point for that. I guess force spells would have been logical if I had gone with the WF and repair line...

How does Whirlwind fair in usefullness? (save for the high feat requirements)

How about Cleave/GCleave? I have some experience with cleaving but those seemed to hit like one or two targets and a bit randomly on those even...

It's hard to stress how different caster power is in DDO than in PnP.

With so many mobs, its rare to "nuke" your way through enemies. Spells like Magic Missile are very SP inefficient, because you would need to cast it 6 or 7 times to down many creatures. Meanwhile, insta-kill spells and Wall of Fire are relatively SP efficient while you level; either you take them out cold, or with Wall of Fire, you damage multiple enemies over time with one casting.

Also, damage is totally hyped in DDO compared to PnP. By level 10, walls of fire ticking over 250 are not uncommon; or for each ray in Scorching Ray to crit 160.

I'd again recommend play a pure caster to 10 before making the multi, just to get a sense of how magic works.

But remember most characters will not thrive in today's endgame. AC builds are bad, Finesse builds are generally bad, CC-spelled and Insta-kill specialists are generally bad. At present, endgame excludes more playstyles than it accomodates. So don't stress too much over how you will manage at level 20; just be willing to learn what works, have fun, and make a better character the next time around.

EDIT: If you want to go rogue-splash for evasion, you can check out Impaqt's Battlecaster build for some other insights. He goes Monk instead of Rogue, so you'll have 2 less feats. But you'll have UMD, which is cush.