Cleric Surivability and AC

[Daggaz]

Ok I am running a dwarven battle cleric based on Sirgog's main. I am 28 point buy, and one of my focuses has been on survivability. If I am squishy, I am wasting SP on myself. If I am dead, I am not healing the rest of the party or putting any smack down on my enemies.

To that end, I have gone for general toughness over excelling at (cleric) DPS or spell penetration etc.. I have 16 base con, toughness, all the toughness enhancements, and minos legens. I have the bonus to saves enhancement nearly maxed, and am pushing over 20 for fort and will. As well, my balance skill is 25 i think atm..

Now I am not dumb, and I know that AC is kinda pointless unless you are in the top, but I have managed to keep mine as high as I can, while still having room for things like superior devotion V (looking for VI) and DR 5/ - (FP of giants). Are there any specific items I could be looking for that will help me to this end? Synergy with cleric abilities or DPS is good. Ive been perusing the forums a lot, but maybe I am missing something.

So far Im:

Starting +10
Dex bonus +1 (can get a +6 item or eat a +2 tome, and take the armor enhancements for +1 or +2 more)
Armor bonus +12 (its worth it for me to drop one AC for the DR 5)
Shield bonus +6 (have a +4 heavy shield with devotion, looking for +5)
Natural armor +2
and
Deflection Bonus +2 (Ring of balance, im TN)
shield spell adds another +2 deflection

for 35 AC self buffed. I know I can get a better protection item, would prefer something like greater stability as it pimps my saves as well on the same slot. Im shooting to hit 50+ with barkskin, while still being useful as secondary DPS and healing.

Thanks for any pointers,
-Grumni

[DToNE]

Well, for starters, why don't you add the alchemical armor bonus on your Fullplate of Giants? That will add 1 more AC to your armor.

If you're missing Armor Enhancements due to Fullplate of Giants, I would recommend getting +6~+8 Armor Bracers, even if you have to sacrifice Chaosguards.

If you do manage to get a Chattering ring, that's another 3 AC you can stack on top.

THE ONLY time you need more Dex Bonus is when you're NOT wearing a full plate, which limits your DEX mod bonus to +1.

If you have combat expertise, you can shoot your AC up by 5, or defensive fighting which will shoot it up by 2, but the problem here is that it has to be reactivated after cast.

If you can wear Tower Shields, wear a +5 tower shield and you'll get +9 AC, with alchemical shield it's +10. Your blocking DR should also shoot to around 13 to 17, so very useful when blocking.


Overall, you won't achieve super high AC, but definitely workable.

[Lymnus]

If you have combat expertise, you can shoot your AC up by 5, or defensive fighting which will shoot it up by 2, but the problem here is that it has to be reactivated after cast.

CE turns off every time you cast a spell, so I wouldn't particularly suggest taking CE. Nevertheless, it requires a 13 INT--I would be somewhat worried if you had a 13 INT without planning for CE.

If you want the highest AC possible, you'll have to dip into Monk. However, you'll have to wear armor bracers and robes to utilize the wisdom bonus to AC. But, dipping into monk isn't something I'd suggest without having planned for it originally.

[Ninetoes]

If I am dead, I am not healing the rest of the party or putting any smack down on my enemies.

That is pretty much exactly the reason I went with Valiance's Iron Cleric. The AC is amazing, especially at lower-to-mid levels. I almost did exactly what you have attempted, but opted to sacrifice some levels of cleric for more survivability. When I do make a "real" cleric, I'll be going this route.

[Kam-Ekaze]

That is pretty much exactly the reason I went with Valiance's Iron Cleric. The AC is amazing, especially at lower-to-mid levels. I almost did exactly what you have attempted, but opted to sacrifice some levels of cleric for more survivability. When I do make a "real" cleric, I'll be going this route.

I feel like I keep repeating this comment on every cleric thread I comment on. I'm also a strong believer in monk splash for survivability. Not only because of the high AC, saves and evasion, but because bulky heavy armor has too many penalties.

The mobility robes grant in general allow for much better maneuvering for survival when necessary, providing better jump, better tumble, and having evasion never really hurt somebody.

If you're going the straight cleric route, then picking up a good shield and armor will be okay until about level 15 or so, then the AC gap will begin growing larger and larger without a build dedicated for AC and gear dedicated for AC.

[Tiro]

I am starting to have serious issues with my survivability as well at level 6/7. I really dont know what else there is for me to get to stop the critical hitting nonsense of casters/archers. I went with 14 str 10 dex 18 wis 16 con 10 int and 8 char.

I am trying to find decent items for ac but they are either too expensive or too high level. The only things I have right now are +3 ac bracers and +3 full plate of stability. I have a light mith shield on and a mace of devotion/power. Are there items I should be shooting for at my level? The only adventure pack I have atm is delera's tomb.

I don'd quite understand the robe thing either, a mobility robe is better than having some ac? Does the robe have DR or something besides mobility?

[Daggaz]

Thanks for responses,

Alchemical bonus: was definitely considering this, I have the shards for it and the ingredients, but I wanted to be more sure what kind of FP i would be wearing at lvl 20 (only 4 more levels) and didnt want to burn my shards too quick.

Tower Shields: Not a bad idea, except that in raids I will probably dual wield casting weapons (potency, wizardry, etc) since AC would be a joke without hitting 70+ (impossible on this toon), and in normal quests where I do melee fairly well, the tower is obviously out. Its normal running I am looking to improve on.

Chattering Ring: I have heard of this ring. Perhaps some day I will find one.

Monk Splash: Not going to happen on this toon, I dont even have monks purchased yet. Going to cap my dwarf with 19cleric/1fighter or maybe 18cleric/2fighter, buy all the worthwhile packs with my bonus TP (got gianthold and vale so far) and maybe then I can look at purchasing monk splashes. Then I imagine I will have the necessary gear as well to make that build shine. It does require a fair amount high end eq to make it work best.

[phalaeo]

I was testing some item combinations/buffs today with a guildy in PVP.

Blocking against a double-Madstonned Khopesh-Wielding Level 20 Exploiter Ranger. I wasn't happy with his miss chance until I hit approximately 55 AC and was wearing a Dusk Heart. Blocking was with 2 Greensteel Kamas, no shield.

For what it's worth, I'm on my second levelling path as a Cleric, and after a certain point in the game, I've realized that I'm going to get hit, and the best "AC" is a decent number of HP.

[Ninetoes]

Phal, what kind of cleric are you running? Obviosuly monk splash, is it just a straight-up Clonk?

[~Tago_Bane]

Don't bother even attempting to raise your ac unless you are ac spec. (2 lvs of monk) but even then, you're ac is still not gonna be competitive enough to really save you in most quests. You're best defense is always HP for a healer. I would recommend putting some more points in con if you are still having trouble and taking the quicken spell if concentration is a big deal. With high hp and quicken you should be able to survive long enough to heal yourself.

[Logic]

I don't even bother with AC on my chars. I have read posts where people with 70AC say they are hit 95% of the time from epic mobs. I feel like what's the point of trying?

[phalaeo]

Phal, what kind of cleric are you running? Obviosuly monk splash, is it just a straight-up Clonk?

As I'm kind of new myself to the whole Monk-splashed AC thing, I'm not really sure how you're defining "straight-up Clonk". I think it's pretty straight up, but I could be wrong and I still have a ways to go on the gear.
Link posted below for you.


http://my.ddo.com/character/argonnessen/pallai/

I can tell you that I've been last man standing in two Shroud lag-fest wipes the other day- not really due to a higher AC- better saves and more HP than I had at this level on my first incarnation.

[oweieie]

I don't even bother with AC on my chars. I have read posts where people with 70AC say they are hit 95% of the time from epic mobs. I feel like what's the point of trying?

There isn't, and since Blade Barrier will do such vastly greater damage than cleric melee ever will there isn't much point in raising AC when the mob can't catch you to swing anyway.

[Daggaz]

There isn't, and since Blade Barrier will do such vastly greater damage than cleric melee ever will there isn't much point in raising AC when the mob can't catch you to swing anyway.

Simplify much? In most groups, it simply isnt an option to cast blade barrier everytime you are killing something. Maybe they dont want to kite the mobs back and forth, maybe the mobs are too few, maybe the mobs are gonna die too fast anyhow. And always, you simply do not have enough SP to use this tactic.

Normal vanilla bladebarrier cannot compete with my clerics DPS at the moment. Its too low, and it takes time to kite the mob back and forth. Tossing maximized/empowered bladebarriers eats mana. This will work solo or duo, where you just zerg them into a horde and then kill, but most groups arent going to run this way, and for most quests, its not possible/efficient.

As well, mobs can hit you if you dont have enough space to kite, and if you do have the space, you are wasting precious time using it instead of running a tighter pattern.

Anyhow, it gets tiring constantly seeing the "easy answer" when such an answer is blatantly false in real game situations. Its like saying that if you cant get 140 AC or whatever the current maximum is, you should give up, despite the fact that those numbers come from getting every single possible short term buff in existence.. an impossible feat for nearly any group. And certainly not something you can do more than once or twice in a quest.

Ive gotten good results so far with my build and the equipment I go for. I can add to DPS, but generally wont pull too much aggro compared to the heavy hitters. When I do pull aggro, I will generally survive it fairly well. They dont hit me every single time on all the quests, I would like to up this miss ratio, as well as my DR. And the whole way thru, I have a lot of mana ready to be used in the best way possible. Greater Command on weak willed heavy hitters? Beats blade barrier anyday if you have DPS to back it up. Cometfall anybody? Empowered mass cure or mass heal when the group inevitably does take hits and cant pop themselves back up in time? Thank god I didnt blow my wad tossing BB every chance I got..

[oweieie]

Simplify much? In most groups, it simply isnt an option to cast blade barrier everytime you are killing something. Maybe they dont want to kite the mobs back and forth, maybe the mobs are too few, maybe the mobs are gonna die too fast anyhow. And always, you simply do not have enough SP to use this tactic.

I cut off the rest of your post because it's pointless. If you're in a group, you won't usually blade barrier, but your AC matters even less than when you're not because others are taking the hits.

And your whole "blade barriers cost SP" is a joke, right? You're not getting your AC high enough to not be costing more in healing than it would to blade barrier.

[EKKM]

I am starting to have serious issues with my survivability as well at level 6/7. I really dont know what else there is for me to get to stop the critical hitting nonsense of casters/archers. I went with 14 str 10 dex 18 wis 16 con 10 int and 8 char.

I am trying to find decent items for ac but they are either too expensive or too high level. The only things I have right now are +3 ac bracers and +3 full plate of stability. I have a light mith shield on and a mace of devotion/power. Are there items I should be shooting for at my level? The only adventure pack I have atm is delera's tomb.

I don'd quite understand the robe thing either, a mobility robe is better than having some ac? Does the robe have DR or something besides mobility?

For starters your armour bracers don't stack with your fullplate, both give an armour bonus to AC. Also, mithril doesn't matter to a cleric, switch to a large shield for a higher AC. Adamantine armour or shields would help survivability as well.

Witha 16 con, you should have lots of HP - perhaps your trouble is aggro management? If you use melee or offensive spells, wait until a tank/dps gets the aggro before attacking.

I don't even bother with AC on my chars. I have read posts where people with 70AC say they are hit 95% of the time from epic mobs. I feel like what's the point of trying?

There are points of the game before epic where AC does matter, even on a cleric.

[Emili]

One thing and one thing only kills clerics (or any class) in this game - "Hitpoints dropping below -9."

Clerics and AC... one thing some should hold accountable is what AC entails, there is a sacrifice to be made to garner AC ... i.e. a true clonk will have a reasonable amount of dex in order to make both AC and reflex save count some. Toe to toe you wish for high 50's mid 60's before piling on the buffing to beyond... below 56 seems meaningless for even most end game elite trash, come epic forget it the AC to matter there leads to high costs on the cleric build.

I can tell you that I've been last man standing in two Shroud lag-fest wipes the other day- not really due to a higher AC- better saves and more HP than I had at this level on my first incarnation.

Reflex save .... this is the cleric's true sore spot believe it or not, Clerics actually have a decent HP and even the lack of high end AC I'd wager more clerics die in end game due to ... 1.) running out of mana to heal the heavier agro magnets then the agro shifts to them or 2.) taking a bloody fireball to the face while your hp is down below half full bar. You want about 400 hp and/or a reflex of mid 20's - tad higher if you evasive (to make it count more often) 31 is a good buffed number for an splashed evasion toon in elite.

CON - this one attribute is second to none bar Wisdom ... now then why do I believe such? Quite simply outside of Quicken ... you have a concentration check to make every hit you take ... concentration is based of this attribute's mod along with rank and other bonus'. The spell level is also taken into consideration... thus there is no worse feeling on a cleric who bloody gets nailed failing a concentration check while attemting to cast a heal or cure... beit on themselves or their fellow party members.

The mobile cleric... my opinion from what I seen of battle cleric is not that AC matters so much, but as that of DPS melee, the most common good battle cleric is both high HP and mobile - the twitchers - just my observation of peoples playing styles... this is true of the casting based cleric also... those who stand still to receive a whack or two - is ok... but to stand still and take it over and over - unwise even with a higher AC cleric... turtling in effficient unless you gear to torc and concordant bids no wanted results.


.... and so it was... finished part one of shroud and as the others head off into part two while I am shrining. I did not think much of it as a friend on his cleric along with a FvS and bard preceded entry with them as I dumped the last buff upon them before taking rest... However as I entered from the north east corner of part two I see health bars drop rapidily and before I could run down halfway to south central mine was the only one left red in the place. With a few orthons teleing on my trail the rest to be soon on the way I decide to rush it... turn on quicken - dropped a blade barrier as i run thru central to the western side... cats, devils and orthons semm very angry... I target the fallen cleric - resurect him while hopping and running back towards the east tree ... he targets a FvS and as I come back towards the west again I res the bard... they precide to res the melee while kiting also... and so it was they patted me on the back cheering the name of my gimpy arse cleric born of mod 3... a drow her lowely - at the time - 330 hp and simple quicken feat made me feel a heroin all the same... These are the things you remember from playing cleric.

[Kam-Ekaze]

There are a number of methods to increase both AC and survivability. While these two go hand in hand, they are not synonymous of each other. There are other factors which make you more likely to survive such as hit points and saves, and DR and mobility.

AC is quite useful and easy to attain at the first few levels, but as you level up the benchmark for your required AC becomes higher and higher. Without specific feats and enhancements, the AC you will receive from heavy armor and a heavy/tower shield will cap off at around 45 without specific gear. You can also opt for the armorless AC route, which oddly is much more efficient for a cleric given class synergy with monk via the wisdom stat, but both routes have pros and cons.

Heavy Armor route:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Besides your highest achievable AC capping off at a relatively low number, you will also notice that many of your skills become greatly reduced while wearing heavy armor. Even more with a tower shield. Some vital skills such as jump and tumble. If you've ever caught yourself taking damage from jumping a ridiculously minute surface, you can assume these two skills are taking a huge skill from your armor usage.

On the flipside, you don't need to take any extra feats to use heavy armor, you do if you want a tower shield, but I'd advise against that since as a pure cleric you are so feat starved already.

Taking this route allows you to focus on your clericky stats, such as a high consitution and wisdom, then the rest can be spread wherever, making choices rather simple.

Cloth Armor route:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One of the biggest advantages of going the cloth armor route is that generally this comes with the benefit of evasion (from second level monk). The monk class (for those who are not aware) will add your wisdom modifier to AC as long as you are wearing cloth armor. Wisdom alone is often not enough to bump this high enough, so you will need to contribute into your dexterity score as well.

Aside from evasion, two levels of monk will grant you two additional combat feats. Your options will be limited, but toughness is among the feats you can take with monk levels.

Robes also allow for greater mobility, letting your twitch skills shine. Tumble and jump away from combat, easily escape being cornered (any zerging cleric who rounds up enemies then blade barriers can tell you how much of a pain it can be to become cornered by an entire dungeon).

Higher dex will allow for higher balance, but often at the cost of lower constitution. Also, taking two monk levels will decrease your spell pool by roughly 200 spell points and your spell penetration check by 2.

As an addition to the negatives your stat allocations will become more complicated. The no-brainer is still wisdom, however, you will need high dex, a decent strength (if you intend on melee at all), which will undoubtedly make your constitution drop. You will nee dto keep your reflex save high to make up for the lower health pool (by avoiding those flamestrikes/cometfalls/delayed blast fireballs/etc) and most probably rely more heavily on scrolls than other clerics to fullfil your job. You will also get most of your spells 2 levels later than other clerics.

I love this game because it's about these little choices we make that shape our playstyle. Find your niche and ride it out. It will all start making more sense to you as you go.

[captain1z]

For a class that can heal themselves to the extent that a cleric can I'd say HP trumps AC.

My low AC, high DR barb has no trouble surviving on his own for short periods of time without healing. Obviously with healing its different.

My WF wizard has an AC of 19 with 375 hp, his AC is not an issue because he can heal himself.

Same goes for a cleric, even if you melee with low AC similiar to a barb but can heal yourself like a wf wiz, you should be fine so long as you have hvy fort and lots of HP and some DR. Just make sure the time you spend in melee is worth the cost of healing yourself...... stuff should be dying, if they arent you might as well fall back and make better use of SP.