Approx 85 damage per hit for a lvl 20 Str Assassin III rogue sneak attacking?

[Ginetti]

Hi.

I'm working out some rough numbers here, which could certainly be wrong.

But, consider starting with 16 str, and ending up with +2 tome, +6 item +5 levels and +1 exceptional for 30 str total.

And consider Radiance 2 rapier,

Then

+10(str) + 5(wep) + 2 (racial enhancement) + 6 (average from holy damage) + 3 (average from electrical damage) + 4 (average of greensteel rapier) = 30 damage.

+ a sneak attack of say 20 + 10d6 = approx 55 average damage.

That means each attack will do approx/roughly 85 damage per hit?

And of course, less on the off hand, due to half str bonus.

Am I way off??

[Averroes]

You're reasonably close.

Holy is 2d6, average 7. Electric is 1d6, average 3.5. Although it'd be holy + flaming burst on a radiance weapon. Rapier is 1d8, average 4.5.

Sneak attack is 12 from sneak attack training IV, probably 8 more from tharne's, and 10d6, so you're right on there with 55.

And you're not factoring crits, which will include +6 damage from assassin and likely +6 more from a bloodstone over normal crits. As you'll crit 15-20, that'll up your average significantly.

Add bard songs, rage, madstone, TOD set bonuses, and things like that and you're well over 100 average damage per swing in sneak attack situations.

[SableShadow]

Very well put, Averroes.

+6 damage from assassin and likely +6 more from a bloodstone over normal crits.

I'd love someone to post testing that indicates they stack...I've convinced myself at this point they don't stack, but I'd welcome the opportunity to be wrong.

[bendover]

I'm averaging about 80-90 per hit on my str based rogue and over 200's on crits using Dust II's and the mobs being immune to acid/evil. So this is a very doable with not all that much hardwork.

[Averroes]

I'd love someone to post testing that indicates they stack...I've convinced myself at this point they don't stack, but I'd welcome the opportunity to be wrong.

I don't have an assassin to test with, but the general rule is that all enhancements stack with items.

It'd take all of about 3 minutes to test though -- calculate your max crit damage with just one bonus and see if you can exceed it.

[SableShadow]

I don't have an assassin to test with, but the general rule is that all enhancements stack with items.

Totally agree...that was my assumption for a long time.

It'd take all of about 3 minutes to test though -- calculate your max crit damage with just one bonus and see if you can exceed it.

I've done that, swapping down to non-GS rapiers (to make the difference more distinct) and watching the floaty numbers for the base damage number...was not able to see the difference between Bloodstone on and off w/ Assassin spec'd.

Testing was done in Amrath, using the stuff around the altar plus hounds and trogs.

Love to be wrong about this, tho...or have the devs change it.

[Ginetti]

You're reasonably close.

Holy is 2d6, average 7. Electric is 1d6, average 3.5. Although it'd be holy + flaming burst on a radiance weapon. Rapier is 1d8, average 4.5.

Sneak attack is 12 from sneak attack training IV, probably 8 more from tharne's, and 10d6, so you're right on there with 55.

And you're not factoring crits, which will include +6 damage from assassin and likely +6 more from a bloodstone over normal crits. As you'll crit 15-20, that'll up your average significantly.

Add bard songs, rage, madstone, TOD set bonuses, and things like that and you're well over 100 average damage per swing in sneak attack situations.

Going str build on rapier wouldnt dramaticaly lower the dps than say if you went str build on a khopesh in this instance, would it? I say this considering much of our dps stems from the sneak attack portion.

[bendover]

Totally agree...that was my assumption for a long time.



I've done that, swapping down to non-GS rapiers (to make the difference more distinct) and watching the floaty numbers for the base damage number...was not able to see the difference between Bloodstone on and off w/ Assassin spec'd.

Testing was done in Amrath, using the stuff around the altar plus hounds and trogs.

Love to be wrong about this, tho...or have the devs change it.

I'm running around in the vale switching items using Heavy Picks and with the seeker on it's not making a difference to the crit damage

[Averroes]

Love to be wrong about this, tho...or have the devs change it.

Ya, I'd say that almost has to be a bug. Certainly worth reporting. Makes no sense to deviate from that basic a design principle intentionally.

And boy, that makes assassin totally unappealing to me. Vorpal, meh... Thanks for making me aware of it before I rolled one.

Going str build on rapier wouldnt dramaticaly lower the dps than say if you went str build on a khopesh in this instance, would it? I say this considering much of our dps stems from the sneak attack portion.

The only correct answer to a question like this is "it depends".

Rapier with a +2 racial damage enhancement is very close to khopesh in average damage (IIRC, it brings the difference from >10% to <5% in typical DPS-calc circumstances for rogues), but it really depends on what damage you care about. If you run a lot of epic, khopesh blows rapier away because you can expect to be attacking stunned targets a significant amount of the time. If you're using a weakening of enfeebling offhand and have crippling strike, again khopesh is probably the way to go.

And keep in mind how slight the difference is in what really matters for radiance -- number of attacks until your target it blinded. Even though you're ~10% less likely to blind with a khopesh, most things will be blinded before your first attack animation is over (9 or 10 swings). So does the additional swing or two that you'll typically get with sneak attack while using a radience rapier matter more than the massive additional dps of the khopesh when you have an auto-crit target?

In any event, your priorities determine which is really better. They're close.

If you're like me, and every extra point of damage matters, I think khopesh wins unless you have something really compelling to do with that feat.

[Lithic]

Very well put, Averroes.



I'd love someone to post testing that indicates they stack...I've convinced myself at this point they don't stack, but I'd welcome the opportunity to be wrong.

I can't give you any hard evidence, but when Star was an assasin3, I'd definately notice when I accidently left my mummy bat in the slot instead of the bloodstone.

[SableShadow]

And boy, that makes assassin totally unappealing to me. Vorpal, meh... Thanks for making me aware of it before I rolled one.

You're welcome. It's pretty fun, tho, while you're on the way up...and could change any time (knock on wood)...I still trot the ToD set out every mod to see if they finally fixed the stacking on that, too. :P

In any event, your priorities determine which is really better. They're close.

Pretty much. I personnally find a higher threat range on radiance invaluable on hard content...if I had to remake all this GS over again (I have many rapiers), I'd still put rad on a high threat weapon. Really depends on what you run and how you run it (i.e. playstyle).

I can't give you any hard evidence, but when Star was an assasin3, I'd definately notice when I accidently left my mummy bat in the slot instead of the bloodstone.

I hear yah, I felt the same way for a long time. It wasn't until I actually sat down for a while and started trying to find the number that I changed my mind.

Was pretty annoyed, too, at my conclusion. :P

Would still love to see someone sit down and find the number that proves me wrong...it would remake my opinion on Assassin III for Epics.

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

I hear yah, I felt the same way for a long time. It wasn't until I actually sat down for a while and started trying to find the number that I changed my mind.

Was pretty annoyed, too, at my conclusion. :P

Would still love to see someone sit down and find the number that proves me wrong...it would remake my opinion on Assassin III for Epics.

Hmmm. The enhancement specifically says it stacks, but maybe it isn't working correctly. I guess I'll have to go test now.

[Ginetti]

The only correct answer to a question like this is "it depends".

Rapier with a +2 racial damage enhancement is very close to khopesh in average damage (IIRC, it brings the difference from >10% to <5% in typical DPS-calc circumstances for rogues), but it really depends on what damage you care about. If you run a lot of epic, khopesh blows rapier away because you can expect to be attacking stunned targets a significant amount of the time. If you're using a weakening of enfeebling offhand and have crippling strike, again khopesh is probably the way to go.

And keep in mind how slight the difference is in what really matters for radiance -- number of attacks until your target it blinded. Even though you're ~10% less likely to blind with a khopesh, most things will be blinded before your first attack animation is over (9 or 10 swings). So does the additional swing or two that you'll typically get with sneak attack while using a radience rapier matter more than the massive additional dps of the khopesh when you have an auto-crit target?

In any event, your priorities determine which is really better. They're close.

If you're like me, and every extra point of damage matters, I think khopesh wins unless you have something really compelling to do with that feat.

True, but does the fact that the sooner you blind with radiance, the sooner your vorporal attack may trigger? Does that weigh into the argument at all?

Alright, thanks again for the input! This has been very helpful indeed.

[Durion]

On the factoring in the Vorpal part (I'm pro-rapier personally anyhow), if you're still talking Epic content it does, because the Epic creatures have death-block on.

[Ybbald]

True, but does the fact that the sooner you blind with radiance, the sooner your vorporal attack may trigger? Does that weigh into the argument at all?

For vorpal you need a natural 20. There's a 5% chance of that happening every attack. Whether they are blinded or not has no impact. The only way to increase your chance of vorpals, is to increase your attack speed.

You can vorpal an unblinded target, it's just not as likely since before you roll a 20, you will probably roll a 15-19

And if you're facing 5 stunned mobs and 5 unstunned mobs, why are you attacking the stunned? The unstunned can still hurt the party, go blind them instead of attacking the stunned. Once it's only stunned and everyone in the aprty is whaling on them, a tiny bit of DPS will not matter.

[Stonen]

For vorpal you need a natural 20. There's a 5% chance of that happening every attack. Whether they are blinded or not has no impact. The only way to increase your chance of vorpals, is to increase your attack speed.

Assasin III can vorpal with any weapon if it is a sneak attack. Blinded creatures get sneak attack, therefore the faster you blind them, the faster you can vorpal.

[sephiroth1084]

I should point out that against SA-able targets, a halfling Dex-based Rogue is actually ahead of the Str-based version as far as I can tell.

Substitute +10 damage main/+5 damage off-hand from Str, for +5 damage (12 Str +6 item +2 tome) from Str and +6 SA damage from Halfling Guile/Cunning (can never recall which is the damage) III. That's +11 damage on main hand, and +8 damage off-hand.

Oh, and I didn't see Power Attack in the OP's or Averros' breakdown. That's another +5 damage per swing, easier to grab on a Str-based, but Dex-based can acquire it as well (I took a level of fighter so I could get both Toughness and PA and for a further 14 HP).

[Razcar]

Substitute +10 damage main/+5 damage off-hand from Str, for +5 damage (12 Str +6 item +2 tome) from Str and +6 SA damage from Halfling Guile/Cunning (can never recall which is the damage) III. That's +11 damage on main hand, and +8 damage off-hand.

Why wouldn't the halfling be Strength based? They are as a good choice for a Str based rog as any other race expect humans. The -1 damage from -2 Str is easily trumped by the Guile bonus.

So in the example in the OP you would have 28 Str (but the same to-hit as the 30 Str) for a +8/+4 damage. Then you add the Guile IV for +8 for: +16 main hand +12 off hand. The mandatory Cunning means you will have no problems hitting even with PA on, so that's another +5. Plus +12 SA Training, +8 Backstabbing, +10d6. That is 10d6+41 + weapon damage, with not even one buff.

I don't have anything against Dex rogues, I have one myself and they have several important advantages over Str-builds. But halflings make as great Str rogues as they make Dex rogues. Don't judge a book by its (diminutive) cover

[sephiroth1084]

Why wouldn't the halfling be Strength based? They are as a good choice for a Str based rog as any other race expect humans. The -1 damage from -2 Str is easily trumped by the Guile bonus.

So in the example in the OP you would have 28 Str (but the same to-hit as the 30 Str) for a +8/+4 damage. Then you add the Guile IV for +8 for: +16 main hand +12 off hand. The mandatory Cunning means you will have no problems hitting even with PA on, so that's another +5. Plus +12 SA Training, +8 Backstabbing, +10d6. That is 10d6+41 + weapon damage, with not even one buff.

I don't have anything against Dex rogues, I have one myself and they have several important advantages over Str-builds. But halflings make as great Str rogues as they make Dex rogues. Don't judge a book by its (diminutive) cover

My point was simply that a Dex-based halfling rogue can have just as much damage as a Str-based (non-halfling) rogue.

[Razcar]

My point was simply that a Dex-based halfling rogue can have just as much damage as a Str-based (non-halfling) rogue.

Ah OK. Yes (and a higher to-hit to boot.) Sorry for getting confused.