PvP, Stupid posts go here.

[macros123]

PvP itself is not like any tabletop version you would have heard of. Nor is any large group of pvpers going to be like ddo now or any tabletop verion you ever heard of. The areas that are already provided for multiplayer pvp are not like any version of DnD that was meant to be played. DnD isn't a PvP game it's a PvE game but there is already PvP in it. Most say there shouldn't be but it is already there and by being there has already broken away from any tabletop D&D session the creators ever intended.

But it is also plain to see that this is only intended as a diversion, not as a major component of the game.

There is nothing resembling character balance in PvP as it currently stands. In order to makeit work, the balance would seemingly need to be adjusted completely. THIS is for the most part what people would least like to see. The balance issues in this game, while still present are at it's best state ever (in my opinion), and I would not like to see Dev time used completely revamping every aspect of the classes/enhancements.

[BoBoDaClown]

I still think a PvM system would work well in this game (takes care of a lot of the balancing issues).

I often hear people complain about pvp '11 year old attitudes' and to be honest I have very rarely experienced it.

[BoBoDaClown]

But it is also plain to see that this is only intended as a diversion, not as a major component of the game.

There is nothing resembling character balance in PvP as it currently stands. In order to makeit work, the balance would seemingly need to be adjusted completely. THIS is for the most part what people would least like to see. The balance issues in this game, while still present are at it's best state ever (in my opinion), and I would not like to see Dev time used completely revamping every aspect of the classes/enhancements.

So, player versus monster - then you can tinker the monsters, rather than the players.

[Borror0]

DDO already has PvP.

Again, DDO already has PvP.

You say that like it matters. Its existence does not justify further investments into it.

[Orratti]

There are some very good posts here, KKdragonlord and Borroro I am looking at you.

But I do feel I should point something out to some of the people not really adding a constructive point.

DDO already has PvP.

Again, DDO already has PvP.

You may have missed it if you do not frequent the taverns, but it is there. I would like to just see them develop the existing system more. I do not want them to overhall the game and target a whole new market. I like many aspects of the game the way they are.

I have played PvP based MMO's, and the PvP was fun. But where they can not touch DDO is the combat system. DDO has the best combat system in any MMO I have played. That is why I came back after playing another game for a year. Being able to swing, jump, dodge, etc. It is much more fun then standing next to a target and trying to time some special ability while your general movements are meaningless due to auto targetting, following, etc.

If anyone has played WAR, my favorite part of the game was the scenarios. 10-24 people per side, whatever classes showed up, thats what you had. The scenarios all had objectives besides killing. Hold an objective, capture a flag. It was very fun. And even though it was a great time, the combat could not hold a candle to DDO.

With the current PvP system DDO has in place I think it would be possible to expand on it and make it very fun to play. Would you see too many 12 vs 12 all Sorc battles? Maybe, but I doubt it.

It sounds about like what I was describing. There is around 50 people in it. The main thing in a case like this I'd want to be sure of is that it will be 50 RANDOM people. My earlier point of mass psychology being reiterated. Other objectives besides the killing, sure why not. Like I said I'd like to see what a large battle of players with all their abilities besides unaviodable massive damage or death (read no saving throw) being available would be like. I'd imagine it would be like a modern warfare game. Maybe a rescue the hostages mission or something like that. Yeah I could see it. Not sure how you would pick a leader for it but really I'd hardly care. Just to play it in utter chaos on such a large scale would be an interesting experience. Like the day the marketplace tent got sucked away. It's an interesting idea and if randomized enough will self cancel most of the worst of the current pvp experience. Don't see your odds of getting it very likely though. More likely to get the pvp server if you push for it enough. Could even get support for that from the general population that would be glad to have the seperation.

[macros123]

So, player versus monster - then you can tinker the monsters, rather than the players.

Hmmmm.......Interesting idea, but would it be harder to tinker with 65 monsters to suit 11, classes, or tinker with 11 classes?

[Orratti]

So, player versus monster - then you can tinker the monsters, rather than the players.

PvNPC eh. Yeah you can just make all the NPCs uber forum builds at different levels.

[Borror0]

So, player versus monster - then you can tinker the monsters, rather than the players.

LOTRO has that, PvMP, for lore reasons. Like I said earlier, I don't think Turbine has addressed even one PvMP concern in a full year.

[BoBoDaClown]

PvNPC eh. Yeah You can just make all the NPCs uber forum builds at different levels.

No; I was thinking of Monsters.

i.e. you can give a selection of monsters- and balance them versus the classes - different abilities, fortification etc. Obviously it wouldn't be perfect, but balance never is, and it would be easier than 'balancing' the classes (which would be a disaster).

[BoBoDaClown]

LOTRO has that, PvMP. Like I said earlier, I don't think Turbine has addressed even one PvMP concern in a full year.

i.e. they haven't had enough funds to do something that isn't high on their priority list. I don't think anyone believes pvp should become a priority here either.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm saying that it is a viable way to fit pvp into this game.


i.e. We wouldn't be fighting each other (Player Characters). They wouldn't need to balance player versus player in terms of classes.

I'm also wondering if DDO will eventually start pulling in more revenue than LOTRO, which would make these kinds of plans viable.

I think everybody agrees that the priority needs to be the stock content.

[Orratti]

No; I was thinking of Monsters.

i.e. you can give a selection of monsters- and balance them versus the classes - different abilities, fortification etc. Obviously it wouldn't be perfect, but balance never is, and it would be easier than 'balancing' the classes (which would be a disaster).

Oops in PnP any hostile creature is considered a monster including npcs. My mistake.

[Visty]

My solutions:

1) Don't balance anything at all. Make every spell and skill work as intended just as it does in a PvE environment. Don't like it? Feel disadvantaged? Fine, don't do it or design a character with PvP in mind. PvP isn't about being fair. It's about kill or be killed. Put up or shut up.

already in game

1b) Because there's no tinkering with abilities, there's no reason for the PvE crowd to resist the changes. Because there aren't any.

already in game

2) Come up with one clever quest where two teams can enter simultaneously from different entry points and compete to finish it first. Mix up the objectives, there should be areas exclusive to each side with traps, puzzles with random elements to solve, an area that requires good twitch skills, and NPC interactions that benefit people with high CHA-based skills. Some sort of magic field keeps you from entering the other team's areas for those challenges, but there will be crossover areas (chokepoints) where both teams can enter and do direct combat.

that would be new, but open for exploits

3) I don't even think it's necessary to give out rewards, really. It's sorta like Permadeath, you are either enjoying yourself or you're not. People will set up their own tournaments and rewards, and keep track of their own stats, trust me.

already in game (well, if you call having no rewards as beeing in game)

so, looking at what you wrote, why are there even posts about pvp?
everything is fine already

(and thats an /agree on you, so you dont get that wrong )

[Bracosius]

You say that like it matters. Its existence does not justify further investments into it.

Why? Do you have the information that proves a better PvP experience would hurt revenue?

Or is it just because you don't care?

We all know that PvP was added as an after thought. If there was no evidence that players wanted PvP why would they have added it all?

The goal of a business is for people to purchase your product. An MMO wants people to be in-game. DDO, being a free MMO want players to spend as much time in game as possible because it creates more oppurtunity for them to purchase. PvP gives people something to do when they want a change of pace. And it will keep them in game for a longer period of time.

As previously stated I do think there should be PvP rewards. The rewards can be things that do not effect the PvE experience. Examples would be:

Visual only items like the pirate hats.

Custom sur-names, slayer of elves, the bloody, the survivor, con as a dump stat, etc.

Items like the pendant of time, rods of teleport, silver flame city regeneration, and other items that enhance the game experience but do not effect how well your character performs in PvE.


And what if all of you PvP haters are wrong? Many people were, and still are, up in arms when DDO went f2p, it was the end of the world. But like it or not, it is proving to be a good business model, and is keeping the game we love around.

If a better PvP system would bring in 1% more customers and keep 5% from leaving for other games that offer better PvP, it is worth it to invest some time in.



(I obviously just made up those numbers, they could be higher...or negative.)

[Gunga]

resp in red

You were so gentle with him.

You're nice.

Brac, you could just 'crush' me in the current PvP, if you'd like.

You'll be bringing Braco? Or, no, maybe you would bring Krayola? Argile?

Hmmm. Decisions, decisions.

Let me know which pea shooter you'll be bringing to my H-Bomb fight.

[Borror0]

Why?

Because it does not directly follow that, simply because it exists, it's a good idea to invest further money in it. Claiming otherwise is fallacious unless you have empirical evidences proving that it's among the best means to spend the money.

Do you have the information that proves a better PvP experience would hurt revenue?

Name me one triple-A theme park MMO that manages to have both a successful PvE and a successful PvP at the same time other than World of Warcraft.

If there was no evidence that players wanted PvP why would they have added it all?

Because Atari requested it. It's not uncommon for the publisher to have requests that don't really make much sense but that most be obeyed.

DDO, being a free MMO want players to spend as much time in game as possible because it creates more oppurtunity for them to purchase.

Tell me what PvP players would buy. Don't say consumables. Allowing consumables in PvP wouldn't be popular to a Western audience.

And what if all of you PvP haters are wrong? Many people were, and still are, up in arms when DDO went f2p, it was the end of the world. But like it or not, it is proving to be a good business model, and is keeping the game we love around.

People claiming F2P would work looked at other similar MMOs and concluded that it would work; people claiming that managing both PvE and PvP wouldn't work looked at other similar MMOs and concluded that it wouldn't work.

Perhaps you should have picked another example...

[MoisleyMassacre]

Imo, most 'PvP haters' generally are the same players that once, jumped into the pit, only to be r0xX3r'd just before their striders hit the floor.

[DoctorWhofan]

Why? Do you have the information that proves a better PvP experience would hurt revenue?

Or is it just because you don't care?

We all know that PvP was added as an after thought. If there was no evidence that players wanted PvP why would they have added it all?

The goal of a business is for people to purchase your product. An MMO wants people to be in-game. DDO, being a free MMO want players to spend as much time in game as possible because it creates more oppurtunity for them to purchase. PvP gives people something to do when they want a change of pace. And it will keep them in game for a longer period of time.

As previously stated I do think there should be PvP rewards. The rewards can be things that do not effect the PvE experience. Examples would be:

Visual only items like the pirate hats.

Custom sur-names, slayer of elves, the bloody, the survivor, con as a dump stat, etc.

Items like the pendant of time, rods of teleport, silver flame city regeneration, and other items that enhance the game experience but do not effect how well your character performs in PvE.


And what if all of you PvP haters are wrong? Many people were, and still are, up in arms when DDO went f2p, it was the end of the world. But like it or not, it is proving to be a good business model, and is keeping the game we love around.

If a better PvP system would bring in 1% more customers and keep 5% from leaving for other games that offer better PvP, it is worth it to invest some time in.



(I obviously just made up those numbers, they could be higher...or negative.)

YOu know, That's fine. BUt what you are proposing isn't gunna bring flocks of peoople here. It is MEANINGLESS. Why put something in a game that actually means nothing? You haveto have a whole society of these people (ie Ettenmoors) to make it worth while. DDO just doesn't have that infrastucture in place, nor the resources to do so.

So forTurbine to do it on the cheap, it would have to be MEANINGFUL PvP. A real tangible award. because if it isn't, it just a tavern fight for a red hat. That red hat has bragging rights, to be sure, but really, when 95% of the game is PvE, no one cares. Now why do it? Why spend cash on it? Why waste my time on it? There is no reason unless it has a purpose.

WoW has HUGE areas of PvP fighting. And gear for it. Titles. Because there is alot of time and effort spent on PvP, more people do it. ANdthe more and more it is creeping on the landscape pf the PvE, to the point making PvE in WoW hard to enjoy. Especially if your Quest Giver is wiped out for hours on end (and your repair bill and death penalties) because there is 5 level 80 Alliance guys sitting outside of Crossroads.

LotRO has the Ettenmoors. Not a whole lot of time spent on it. But outside duels, it is your PvP. Again, items, titles and PvP centric gear can be won. But it doesn't detract from the PvE nor does it involve it. It's your tounsils: great you have them forthe added infection fighting, but they can be removed and your body still function fine.

I prefer LotRO's PvP. But as Borror0 has said, no one CARES. it doesn't have impact on their game on a daily basis, wasting time in the Ettenmoors doesn't really help them get further into the game in general, most people skip it. I do when I play LotRO. Whether or not WoW's is meaningful PvP is up to debate, but it DOES have an impact on the game. I know WoW has since taken steps to correct some ofthe PvP issues, BUT if you are on a PvP server, and shut off PvP, you are still effected.

Is seperating the PvErs and the PvPers make a difference? not really. THe most nasty fights have been in many a forums over this.

All in all, I agree with Borror0. THe game was not set up to be PvP, therefore the PvP will be bad. UNLESS you do the Ettenmoor way, which has it's own issues. But if you don't have Meaningful PvP, forthe sake of getting people to the game, you might as well not have it at all. Rewriting your game to fit something into it is dangerous, and can back fire as much as it is suppose to help. DDO is hard wired, due to the game it was based on, to be PvE. Changing it would be a very dangerous thing to do.

[DoctorWhofan]

Imo, most 'PvP haters' generally are the same players that once, jumped into the pit, only to be r0xX3r'd just before their striders hit the floor.

No most don't even go into the pits.

[flynnjsw]

Imo, most 'PvP haters' generally are the same players that once, jumped into the pit, only to be r0xX3r'd just before their striders hit the floor.

I have PvP'd in this game all of none, and I do not want PvP to be implemented in any form that makes it mandatory in any way ( rewards that would enhance your character in PvE, Guild Requirements, etc). There, I blew your opinion straight out of the water.

[gavagai]

Imo, most 'PvP haters' generally are the same players that once, jumped into the pit, only to be r0xX3r'd just before their striders hit the floor.

In my case, I loved PvP and GvG.... in Shadowbane. (Will probably go back to check out the Emulator too, see if it turns out to be wheat or chaff.)

But I'm concerned about "enhancing" PvP in DDO. People who want a good, tactical PvP experience have to ask themselves:

Does DDO lack merely the format for fun PvP, or do the basic mechanics of DDO make PvP problematic.

We can add new formats for PvP (12 on 12 team matches, take-no-prisoners 100 player apocolypse, &c), but IMO they will be as daft and stagnant as the current Capture the Flag and barroom brawl formats.

Why? Because the basic mechanics of DDO involve characters that do massive DPS and/or instant incapacitating effects which are themselves extremely vulnerable (low HPs, often low saves and low SR, &c.) and many class abilities provide no particular benefit in a PvP context (Favored Enemy, KotC damage, Sneaking, Sneak Attacks) while others take on stratospheric significance (Manyshot with Improved Precise Shot, Power Word Stun, Wail.)

I've never seen effective healers in PvP. Why? because there's no way to heal fast enough the damage you sustain. That is a bad sign if you want tactical, intelligent, interesting PvP.

That's why I think any format that revolves around direct confrontation between players will fail. We're too powerful and too weak at the same time. A quest with non-PvP objectives, but which allowed for a possibility of PvP if desired, is better. A rogue may be undervalued in direct PvP, but can provide DPS and rogue support in usual quest format, and do interesting things like gather aggro and drop mobs on other players using Diplomacy. Because its a quest and not just PvP, more players would be encouraged to give it a try; and even though PvP remains unbalanced, each player can contribute towards objectives.