PvP, Stupid posts go here.

[DoctorWhofan]

Most MMOs have tacked on PvP, rather than a real PvP. In those MMOs, it's an afterthought (most likely ordered by the publisher rather than the designers) with the hope it'll act a few players and then the rest of the game will persuade them to stick around.

Take LOTRO as an example. It has PvP (well, PvMP) but I don't think any change has been made to address the PvPers' concerns in the last year or so. It's not that there isn't a long list of serious complaints to address; it's just not a big moneymaker and Turbine realized that investing further money in PvP is a incorrect use of their resources as the PvE content is really their biggest selling point.

The same goes for about every MMO except the few successful PvP-centric MMOs and World of Warcraft.

Usually, it's wiser to pick between PvE or PvP and stick with it. Notice that the latest PvP MMO (Aion) has very poor PvE. There's a reason behind that: it's not its biggest selling point, PvP is, and focusing on the two is just an impossible task considering their revenues so they went with PvP.

agreed. And adding, at this juncture in DDO's history, the only way I can see to add PvP WITHOUT destroying the PvE OR making it "manatory" is PvMP, which Turbine has and can set up easily.

It's the only PvP I will support.

I know this has been beaten into the ground, but I do feel it needs to be said again: Alot of us came here because there was NO PvP. Many of us were burned out on games that had Meaningful PvP. Personally, I was tired of being publicily mocked by 11 year olds because I didn't want to spar with their twinked out toons. Strangely, I tend not to be confrontational in the game, for those who have played with me know for a fact. I prefer to work as a team to get the job done rather than a solo uber build doing all the work and the rest of us wondering why we logged into the game.

Yes, I know that PvP crowd isn't made up of entirely by 11 year olds, but that's what I (and many others) got the impression of when concerning games that are PvP driven. THey are the loudest, like the non-PvP people here are the loudest, and there fore are the "face" of PvP.

With the dislike of PvP, and immature players who practice it like a religion, I feel bringing a meaningful PvP to this game means that that crowd will flock to DDO. It hast to be MEANINGFUL. If it isn't, then no one will play, like it is now. Or that slow demand for "rewards" will creep up in the suggestions. Am I worried about the people here going "PvP-l33tist?" No, so don't protest this is wrong thinking. I am worried the crowd that WILL COME from meaningful. ANd they will come.

Will the game grow? yes. Will they make more money? yes. Will DDO stand out as revoutionary, different? NO. Why? It followed the "crowd". Will the PvE be shoved aside for the PvP crowd? I really think it will, just because of the bottom line.

And at the end of the day I feel niched is better. Because, for me, PvP here means I have only LotRO to go to, andthat can only hold my interests for a few weeks at a time. It isn't my choice, though. However, I shall influence Turbine as much as I can AGAINST adding PvP to the game.

And I will argue to anyone against it on the forums and in the game, with all the passion and influence I can muster.

[macros123]

I think PvP can be improved and does have a place in DDO.

Those closed minded folks that always want to reply "I will quit, it will ruin the game, blah, ****, garbage." Go ahead and stop reading and post now, otherwise you will be subject to more opinions you may not agree with and I don't want to shake your world too much.

Because we have differring viewpoints to your own does not make us closed minded. What you need to understand is that your viewpoint has been shared many times in the past, and this conversation is not at all novel.

There are several people who feel just as you do about this, but if you take the time to read the previous threads, you will see that the OVERWHELMING majority of the players are simply not interested. If you think you will be the one fellow to change all of our minds, then go ahead, but expect a great deal of pushback on this issue.

Closed mindedness is not being able to see the other person's viewpoint, but if you take the time to read the other posts (BorrorO has a nice one) You will see that there are many valid reasons why this would not be desirable, and these reasons are completely valid, not at all closed minded. Each one of these areas has been argued and analyzed repeatedly, and the conclusions are based on reason, not stubborness.

It may hurt your feelings to be in the minority on this issue, but for the time being, it appears that you are still there, and you will need to find some way to get past that. I understand that PvP would make the game more enjoyable for a small, yet significant portion of the population, but the rest of us feel that there would TOO MUCH change to the game we love in order for that to happen.

[Borror0]

[...] this does not conflict with the core argument that there is a market to be tapped and Turbine will weigh the pros an cons themselves.

If your claim was as conservative as "there is a market to be tapped," then I would have not disagreed. However, your claim was much bolder than that. You said, "Its a huge selling point in the MMO market, so much so that practically no MMO worth its salt would consider NOT supporting it." That's not true. In fact, most MMOs don't exploit their PvP (they have PvP but don't capitalize on it) and those who do exploit their PvP have a poor PvE experience because that is not their focus - the only exception being WoW manages to do both thanks to its 105M monthly income.

See the conflict now?

[acidtiger]

Organized PvP with all the weenie-waving, rivalry and class changes in the name of 'balance' was one of the (many) things I was glad to say good-bye to when I left WoW. Thanks, but no-thanks, on the subject of PvP.

[KKDragonLord]

If your claim was as conservative as "there is a market to be tapped," then I would have not disagreed. However, your claim was much bolder than that. You said, "Its a huge selling point in the MMO market, so much so that practically no MMO worth its salt would consider NOT supporting it." That's not true. In fact, most MMOs don't exploit their PvP (they have PvP but don't capitalize on it) and those who do exploit their PvP have a poor PvE experience because that is not their focus - the only exception being WoW manages to do both thanks to its 105M monthly income.

See the conflict now?

Yes, thanks for sharing.

[Orratti]

Ok If you could have a dev start an open battlefield that every player could join without being able to pick his own side, Where the battle was not started until both sides were full, Where every spell and ability could be used, that would involve at least 50 players on a side where the character were within a decent lvl range of each other I could see that as being some real fun. It would be utter chaos but I could see it being fun. There would be no real way to take it personally. There would be no way to get into your "pack" of cruelty. You would join from an lfm and your side would be picked for you. Maybe even three or four groups of folks. It would be very difficult to develop a reputation so you have no reputation to defend. It would be very similar to fighting pve with a possibility of greatly improved AI (or not) and some seriously buffed opponents. Would play out very much like a modern battlefield type of game. Yes it could be interesting and alot different that PVE and feel very different to both PVE and PVP the way they are now.

[edit] There would still be some very serious problem with making it work well though. The main problem with pvp as it is now is greensteel. It does so much damage that it removes most of the skill from pvp and replaces it with luck. Really pvp had past its prime with the creation of shroud loot. There were already issues with it before then but that was the last straw in killing pvp for good.

[jcTharin]

1. i just want to cause massive carnage. i don't care the target, i just want to destroy.

2. the amount of work that would be needed to make a good PvP system in DDO would be better spent on other tasks. I'm sure you could make that list up yourselves.

3. I'm fairly certain that it agreed upon by the majority of people here (on the forms at least) that we don't want the game to invest in PvP.

I still like my idea of army vs army. but i think that turbine would be better investing their time in something else for the game.

are we done yet?

[macros123]

Ok If you could have a dev start an open battlefield that every player could join without being able to pick his own side, Where the battle was not started until both sides were full, Where every spell and ability could be used, that would involve at least 50 players on a side where the character were within a decent lvl range of each other I could see that as being some real fun. It would be utter chaos but I could see it being fun. There would be no real way to take it personally. There would be no way to get into your "pack" of cruelty. You would join from an lfm and your side would be picked for you. Maybe even three or four groups of folks. It would be very difficult to develop a reputation so you have no reputation to defend. It would be very similar to fighting pve with a possibility of greatly improved AI (or not) and some seriously buffed opponents. Would play out very much like a modern battlefield type of game. Yes it could be interesting and alot different that PVE and feel very different to both PVE and PVP the way they are now.

That scenario is not at all like the DDO we play now.
That is not at all like any tabletop D&D session I have ever heard of also, which this game is based on.
It sounds like it should be another game with another name.

[gavagai]

Ok If you could have a dev start an open battlefield that every player could join without being able to pick his own side, Where the battle was not started until both sides were full, Where every spell and ability could be used, that would involve at least 50 players on a side where the character were within a decent lvl range of each other I could see that as being some real fun. It would be utter chaos but I could see it being fun. There would be no real way to take it personally. There would be no way to get into your "pack" of cruelty. You would join from an lfm and your side would be picked for you. Maybe even three or four groups of folks. It would be very difficult to develop a reputation so you have no reputation to defend. It would be very similar to fighting pve with a possibility of greatly improved AI (or not) and some seriously buffed opponents. Would play out very much like a modern battlefield type of game. Yes it could be interesting and alot different that PVE and feel very different to both PVE and PVP the way they are now.

I'd prefer allowing potentially opposing "groups" run a common quest rather than create a battlefield instance devoted to free-for-all PvP, just because some classes are completely useless in PvP and they would undoubtedly whine about their inability to participate.

Exactly like a quest. Moderate XP that diminishes with repetition, and mediocre random loot using normal quest loot tables. The only difference is the ability to have different "teams." I think that would preserve a clean, DDO flavor, no?

If you can "win" the PvP quest by simply avoiding the gankers and completing before everyone else, you'd have more interest and more interesting ways to play it. Rogues can DPS mobs and do a couple traps (they are useless for the actual PvP), rangers and casters can gank, &c. Naturally you'd have players just joining parties to run this quest to gank and prey on other players; but having an outside objective (say, a number of mobs with a somewhat difficult boss) would add depth and include more playstyles.

The more a PvP system focuses on direct confrontation between players, rather than completing objectives, the more you fall into the pit of problems Borroro mentions.

[kafrielveddicus]

Here is an idea;

Make a PVP server (available to F2p and at an additional premium for VIP)

Make each hour of fighting cost DDO Store points even if it is only 5

Force all the 12 year olds from WOW(And other that act that way onto that server)

Figure out new ways(such as elite PVP gear that can be bought with store points) to milk as much money out of them as possible

Use the funds to boost the game for all the non PVP servers

What do you think!!!

[jcTharin]

Here is an idea;

Make a PVP server (available to F2p and at an additional premium for VIP)

Make each hour of fighting cost DDO Store points even if it is only 5

Force all the 12 year olds from WOW(And other that act that way onto that server)

Figure out new ways(such as elite PVP gear that can be bought with store points) to milk as much money out of them as possible

Use the funds to boost the game for all the non PVP servers

What do you think!!!

hmm... weed out and separate the PvP players from everyone else.

i like it

[macros123]

1
are we done yet?

Doubtful.


Sigh

[Shassa]

Rewards are necessary if you want to get a great number of players playing. While a few people can get enjoyment out of something for the sake of doing it, most people need to be told what to do. That's why current MMO design is so quest-centric. Ultima Online didn't have quests but, from EQ to World of Warcraft, quests got used more and more because players generally found being told what to do to be more fun than finding what to do.

Rewards do that. They add a meaning for accomplishing certain task, to most players.[/URL].

In general I would agree, except that we are talking about PvP in DDO here. If the rewards are desirable then a significant part of the population (which is largely anti-PvP) will feel forced to go through the motions to get it. Once that happens, we're on the subject of imposing PvP onto the clear majority who want no crossover at all and will resent any attempt at such.

That's why my suggestions boiled down to giving them a new toy (quest) and letting them have their fun without affecting everyone else's gameplay.

[kafrielveddicus]

hmm... weed out and separate the PvP players from everyone else.

i like it

Exactly and keep inventing items that are for pvp only, make them cost exuberant store points and let them all play the "Toy Game", they will fight it out to be the best, and spend all their money to improve our game!!!

At the same time, the players who love the game for what it is will be rid of them and reap the rewards of having them on an island of their own!!!

I think it is a win win!!!

[Orratti]

I'd prefer allowing potentially opposing "groups" run a common quest rather than create a battlefield instance devoted to free-for-all PvP, just because some classes are completely useless in PvP and they would undoubtedly whine about their inability to participate.

Exactly like a quest. Moderate XP that diminishes with repetition, and mediocre random loot using normal quest loot tables. The only difference is the ability to have different "teams." I think that would preserve a clean, DDO flavor, no?

If you can "win" the PvP quest by simply avoiding the gankers and completing before everyone else, you'd have more interest and more interesting ways to play it. Rogues can DPS mobs and do a couple traps (they are useless for the actual PvP), rangers and casters can gank, &c. Naturally you'd have players just joining parties to run this quest to gank and prey on other players; but having an outside objective (say, a number of mobs with a somewhat difficult boss) would add depth and include more playstyles.

The more a PvP system focuses on direct confrontation between players, rather than completing objectives, the more you fall into the pit of problems Borroro mentions.

I'd say no. People who want to pvp want to to kill other players not to do a quest. People who want to do a quest don't want another group of people in there just to interfere with their completion. Killing the enemy(s) is the point of pvp therefore when the enemies or an overwhelming number of them are dead you complete the pvp quest. Capturing the flag and getting it to the other side of the battlefield is the point of the game in paintball and if you wanted to pin down your opponent while your fastest teammate grabbed the flag and ran it to completion you can but it is more fun to kill everyone on the other side and just walk it to the other side.

[jcTharin]

Exactly and keep inventing items that are for pvp only, make them cost exuberant store points and let them all play the "Toy Game", they will fight it out to be the best, and spend all their money to improve our game!!!

At the same time, the players who love the game for what it is will be rid of them and reap the rewards of having them on an island of their own!!!

I think it is a win win!!!

its elitist.

but i still like it

[kafrielveddicus]

its elitist.

but i still like it

The Narc takes a bow


Problem solved - bring in PVP as described in previous posts

Sidenote - ultimately this is not what is wanted, because it takes away the fun of grieving other players

[Orratti]

That scenario is not at all like the DDO we play now.
That is not at all like any tabletop D&D session I have ever heard of also, which this game is based on.
It sounds like it should be another game with another name.

PvP itself is not like any tabletop version you would have heard of. Nor is any large group of pvpers going to be like ddo now or any tabletop version you ever heard of. The areas that are already provided for multiplayer pvp are not like any version of DnD that was meant to be played. DnD isn't a PvP game it's a PvE game but there is already PvP in it. Most say there shouldn't be but it is already there and by being there has already broken away from any tabletop D&D session the creators ever intended.

[Borror0]

In general I would agree, except that we are talking about PvP in DDO here. If the rewards are desirable then a significant part of the population (which is largely anti-PvP) will feel forced to go through the motions to get it.

If you're going to bother with improving an aspect of your game, it's for players to play it. If they don't, you've wasted your time.

With that said, WoW has PvE gear and PvP gear. I don't know what the differences between the two are exactly, since I never PvP'd in WoW, but I know that good PvE gear is decent but not optimal in PvP while good PvP is decent but not optimal in PvE. If Turbine was to truly bother with PvP, then they should study how WoW did it and emulate how they pulled off to make an incentive to play PvP that had little effect on PvE.

[Bracosius]

There are some very good posts here, KKdragonlord and Borroro I am looking at you.

But I do feel I should point something out to some of the people not really adding a constructive point.

DDO already has PvP.

Again, DDO already has PvP.

You may have missed it if you do not frequent the taverns, but it is there. I would like to just see them develop the existing system more. I do not want them to overhall the game and target a whole new market. I like many aspects of the game the way they are.

I have played PvP based MMO's, and the PvP was fun. But where they can not touch DDO is the combat system. DDO has the best combat system in any MMO I have played. That is why I came back after playing another game for a year. Being able to swing, jump, dodge, etc. It is much more fun then standing next to a target and trying to time some special ability while your general movements are meaningless due to auto targetting, following, etc.

If anyone has played WAR, my favorite part of the game was the scenarios. 10-24 people per side, whatever classes showed up, thats what you had. The scenarios all had objectives besides killing. Hold an objective, capture a flag. It was very fun. And even though it was a great time, the combat could not hold a candle to DDO.

With the current PvP system DDO has in place I think it would be possible to expand on it and make it very fun to play. Would you see too many 12 vs 12 all Sorc battles? Maybe, but I doubt it.