Why splash?

[Arak]

Just coming back to the game and trying to plan a TR for my rogue.

I don't plan on building an AC rogue. I plan to focus on dex twf.

wf
twf
itwf
gtwf
otwf
imp crit pierce
power attack

Like the post title says, why splash? Is toughness so key that you give up the skill points, and the capstone (granted I understand it sucks) for it?

I suppose I could cookie cut 1 monk 1 fighter for some AC, but I always prefered to stay pure. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

[Visty]

because the capstone sucks like hell

[KingOfCheese]

because the capstone sucks like hell

That's the answer. Level 20 of rogue gives you capstone. Level 20 of just about anything else gives you something better.

Staying pure is fine (perhaps a new capstone will arrive some day)--but if you are looking for some extra hps (always helpful in epic content) or other goodies (feats), splashing can be nice.

[BladedThesis]

It seems to me that theres no reason not to splash a lvl of something. You get your final sneak attack bonus at 19 and the capstone blows. A lvl of pretty much anything would beat one more lvl of rogue there imo. You lose a bit of skills but the loss is minimal. Since WF, you could take a wizzy lvl for repair light, fighter for a feat, barb for run speed. Seems like the rogue lvl would be worthless though.

[Anderei]

As been posted, Lvl 20 of rogue gives you nothing but the capstone, so there is no reason to splash at least 1 level.

In my personal opinion if you are not shooting for Asassin III, 13 rogue levels gives you all rogueness you need, still a hell lot of sneakattack damage, nice benefits from Acrobat II, can do all traps/chests (xcept VON5 epic)

Recnelty I started one of these 13 Rog/6 Rgr/1 Mnk builds, at low levels I noticed using handwraps/windstance the monk level gives you blazing speed and this works with sneak attacks! I don't know yet exactly why most turn to rapiers or something else at higher levels, likely they have their reasons, but the monk level really is very nice. Even if you fight with non-monk weapons and not care about AC, you still can seathe your weapons and get a Dex bonus from windstance if you want to pass a difficult trap,and you get a free feat.

Personally the next thing I'd really want to try a 12 rgr/8monk. Tier 3 unarmed strike at monk level 8, combined monk with acrobat speed plus sneak attack damages

[Tuney]

I'd just like to state. That YES the capstone is very weak compaired to the other capstones. But A lot of people did say the same about the Cleric capstone as well but still proves useful. The same can be said about the rogue capstone, if you are always pushing your self to the limits or if lag happens and no pentality box. You will still die but can go res somewhere safe hehe.

To me Cheat death , out weights splashing Monk or Fighter even though it would be nice hehe.

[chipparoni87]

Maybe not a splash build, but I rolled up a 13Rog/6Ranger/1Barb WF. Love playin him. Tempest +Barb rage ftw!

http://my.ddo.com/character/thelanis/reacharound/

[Chai]

1. Capstone blows. It is a convenience tool only. It should be HIPS from the shadowdancer prestige class in 3.0.

2. 1 level of fighter gets you 14 hp, a feat, and better weapon selection, and sacrifices nothing but the capstone (see 1)

3. If you dont have 350 + hp while leg humping raid bosses, you gonna die boy. This is a bare minimum number. I am shooting for 450+ post shroud gear hp.

Its a good thing there is enough win in the rogue class without the capstone.

[Tuney]

As an elf with starting con of 12, it is quite possible to get 400 + hp. And that is with a +2 con tome ,+hp shroud itme.rage and greater false life if you throw in madstone that is an extra 4 con . So pure rogue ONLY gives capstone, it still provides some MINOR use. And becomes, a matter of preferance.

Will the extra hp and other perks to you be deemed better from splashing other classes. Not every one has to build for ultra uberness and still hold there own.

[Calebro]

Recnelty I started one of these 13 Rog/6 Rgr/1 Mnk builds, at low levels I noticed using handwraps/windstance the monk level gives you blazing speed and this works with sneak attacks! I don't know yet exactly why most turn to rapiers or something else at higher levels, likely they have their reasons, but the monk level really is very nice.

The switch to rapiers is because the extra damage from the higher crit range > the extra damage from the slightly higher attack speed with a lower crit range.
I've found this to become noticeable around level 8-12 depending on your leveling plan and gear setup, so use wraps until then, but swap out at that point.

*edit: and always keep a set of kamas and wraps handy for undead, so you can swap to those and re-enter wind stance for situations where piercing and/or sneak attack is useless.
With that build you have:
If you can crit on it: rapiers are better.
If you can't crit on it: wind stance kamas are better.

[Arak]

Alrighty, thank you all very much.

[SableShadow]

A self-rez that works mostly (but not always) vs a free feat, class features, extra hp, access to other enhancements, and a saves bump...

[Chai]

A self-rez that works mostly (but not always) vs a free feat, class features, extra hp, access to other enhancements, and a saves bump...

Exactly.

Dying isnt in the plan, and if any situation required the dead rogue to rez and save the party, its prob already a fail.

As a 1 fighter 19 rogue you can use light picks, light hammers, kukri, etc. as a finese build and all other martial weapons as a str build. I also dont have to decide if I want power attack or OTWF, I get another feat so I will take both.

As a 1 monk 19 rogue you get kamas and wraps which are both finese, Ac from wis, decent bump on saves, I also dont have to decide if I want power attack or OTWF, I get another feat so I will take both.

As a 20 rogue you get to use simple weapons only, no extra feat, and get an ability that works similar to death pact, but not guaranteed to work.

There are some capstones on other classes they got right. I can tell when they got it right when its a serious debate on going pure or splashing, and the trade off seems like an even swap. With rogues this simply is not the case. I understand its a matter of opinion, but a gimped death pact doesnt seem to carry as much weight as a level of fighter or monk does.