Torn on split

[Yajerman01]

Okay, I have put my rogue on Paper and he will be a WF. Assuming all stats are equal and I have placed all skill points possible to the same skill sets it has come down to the following.

19/1 Rogue Fighter

PRO's
1. Of the three option it has the Highest Skill point allocation, i.e. DD/DT/Spot/Search, etc.
2. Bonus feat: Rogue, Slippery Mind (or an alternative)
3. The Extra 1d6 on Sneak Attack
4. I can also grab Fighter Toughness I
5. Base Hitpoints 318
6. 5 Attacks per round

CON's
1. Lowest of the three in saves at base of 12/16/5


18/2 Rogue Ranger

CON's
1. Matches the fighter splash in Skill set allocation
2. Has 1 Favored Enemy
3. Has Bow Strength
4. Rapid Shot
5. Optional Sprint Boost and Wand Use (But devalued as a WF heal)
6. 5 Attacks per round

CON's
1. Lowes in Bas HP at 308
2. Low Will save coming in at base 5

or

18/1/1 Rogue Paladin Monk

PRO's

1. Equal in Skill set Allocation as the fighter and ranger splash
2. AC Aura
3. Has the highest overall saves of the three coming in at a base of 15/19/8
4. Can use AC bonus from Wisdom
5. Has the highest base AC at 22
6. Wand Use and Palidan Toughness I optional
7. Base HP are at 320

CON's

1. Has only 4 attacks per round

I am torn because I want the best in his dps without sacrificing his survivability AND versatility.

So should I go with the fighter splash to maximize his Sneak Attack with an added rogue feat?

Should I go for the ranger splash for versatility with bow and Favored enemy?

Or should I stand my ground with better saves and mroe AC?


If someone else can give me their view and how they perceive what is better vs better off, feel free to opine.


I do not think I need to add additional information as I have surmised all other options and trickled it down to these three.

[Yajerman01]

[Yajerman01]

really? no one has a good point or wants to opine - in a forum filled with opinions, grrr arrrrg!

[Timjc86]

Why the one level of paladin in the third build? The +1 AC aura is negligible and won't stack with a higher aura.

The first two builds look good and are builds that I have seriously debated myself. I personally went 1 fighter (and then TRed into 1 barb). I have not tried the 2 ranger splash yet, but I've been considering it. I really like the extra sneak attack die and feat at rogue 19, but Bow Strength and Rapid Shot give you a somewhat-decent ranged combat option in the rare situation that it's needed (not to mention the free TWF feat.)

Also, if you're planning on being an Assassin, going 18 rogue instead of 19 will lose you a point of DC on Assassinate.

On my rogues I've never seen the need for a super AC or amazing saves, so I've avoided pally and monk splashes. There are other ways to mitigate damage than AC (and in epic content, a meaningful AC is nigh unobtainable); saves can be pushed high enough with effort and smart itemization - every now and then something like a Greater Command will land at a very inopportune time, but that's rare. I'd rather have martial weapon proficiencies and some other benefits.

[shenthing]

I take it there are no redeeming feature of the ranger rogue mix j/k. Have you thought about a 13/whatever build? Still decent damage output, get 2 rogue feats and a tierII option.

[Yajerman01]

Why the one level of paladin in the third build? The +1 AC aura is negligible and won't stack with a higher aura.

The first two builds look good and are builds that I have seriously debated myself. I personally went 1 fighter (and then TRed into 1 barb). I have not tried the 2 ranger splash yet, but I've been considering it. I really like the extra sneak attack die and feat at rogue 19, but Bow Strength and Rapid Shot give you a somewhat-decent ranged combat option in the rare situation that it's needed (not to mention the free TWF feat.)

Also, if you're planning on being an Assassin, going 18 rogue instead of 19 will lose you a point of DC on Assassinate.

On my rogues I've never seen the need for a super AC or amazing saves, so I've avoided pally and monk splashes. There are other ways to mitigate damage than AC (and in epic content, a meaningful AC is nigh unobtainable); saves can be pushed high enough with effort and smart itemization - every now and then something like a Greater Command will land at a very inopportune time, but that's rare. I'd rather have martial weapon proficiencies and some other benefits.

Thanks for the input, finally, lol!

The fighter splash has been my first choice all along, i just needed to hear it from another person. The saves are on a warforged anyway so as long as I hit 31 on reflex im going to be good.

[Angelus_dead]

6. 5 Attacks per round
6. 5 Attacks per round
1. Has only 4 attacks per round

While it is true that BAB 20 means more attack speed, it is incorrect to characterize it as a different number of attacks per "round", or even per animation sequence. DDO characters gain their full attack animation by level 3-4.

18/1/1 Rogue Paladin Monk

It is also interesting to consider the possibility of using handwraps for faster attack speed, particularly against undead and constructs.

[Rusty_Can]

1. Has only 4 attacks per round

Uhm.... I might be wrong, but according to these release notes http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Relea...tch_1_Official and http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Relea...fficial#Combat,
- all characters with BAB +3 or higher perform a 4-swings attack sequence;
- BAB affects attack speed.

I.e. at high level, all characters go through the same attack sequence, but some characters faster than others, depending on their BAB. (N.b. attack speed can also be affected by several other things like PrE, capstones and so on).

[Timjc86]

Something else worth noting about base attack bonuses: no matter what yours is, you can use a Divine Power clickie/scroll or Madstone Boots to get a BAB equal to a full BAB class of your level. It's very useful if you're having trouble hitting higher AC mobs.

[Yajerman01]

ty all for the education. always learning or defining my knowledge.

[Averroes]

Hmm. I've been thinking about what level split I'd use to build an all-out DPS rogue for a while, and none of the three you suggest are even under consideration for me.

From a simply DPS standpoint, 19rogue/1 barbarian is the best split involving more than 13 levels of rogue, due to barbarian power attack I. Rogues already have haste boost, so the fighter level doesn't offer much more than the feat. Movement speed never hurts either.

But then there's 13rogue/6ranger/1barb or monk, which gives up 3d6 sneak attack (10.5avg) and assassin 3 (add'l +4 seeker, IIRC, ~1.6avg per swing when all crits confirm) to gain 10% speed from tempest, ~+5 favored enemy damage, and I think another +3 from Ram's might. In a situation where you're getting sneak attack all the time, and your total (base + sneak) damage is >100, the ranger multi pulls pretty far ahead in damage, while also being more versatile and having better saves.


Beyond that, if resilience and versatility are more important than always being the big dog in the group in terms of DPS, I highly recommend checking out Dark_Star's build, the Hurtlocker, which is a 13r/6pally/1 monk that is both an effective DPSer and a raid-class hate tank, while maintaining trap and stealth skills and no save below 30.

In general, I think 6 pally is almost always worth it over 2 pally these days, as with 6 ranger over 2 ranger.

Anyway, hope that gives you some food for thought.

[Yajerman01]

Hmm. I've been thinking about what level split I'd use to build an all-out DPS rogue for a while, and none of the three you suggest are even under consideration for me.

From a simply DPS standpoint, 19rogue/1 barbarian is the best split involving more than 13 levels of rogue, due to barbarian power attack I. Rogues already have haste boost, so the fighter level doesn't offer much more than the feat. Movement speed never hurts either.

But then there's 13rogue/6ranger/1barb or monk, which gives up 3d6 sneak attack (10.5avg) and assassin 3 (add'l +4 seeker, IIRC, ~1.6avg per swing when all crits confirm) to gain 10% speed from tempest, ~+5 favored enemy damage, and I think another +3 from Ram's might. In a situation where you're getting sneak attack all the time, and your total (base + sneak) damage is >100, the ranger multi pulls pretty far ahead in damage, while also being more versatile and having better saves.


Beyond that, if resilience and versatility are more important than always being the big dog in the group in terms of DPS, I highly recommend checking out Dark_Star's build, the Hurtlocker, which is a 13r/6pally/1 monk that is both an effective DPSer and a raid-class hate tank, while maintaining trap and stealth skills and no save below 30.

In general, I think 6 pally is almost always worth it over 2 pally these days, as with 6 ranger over 2 ranger.

Anyway, hope that gives you some food for thought.

Thanks definitely will look at a 13/6/1 split and weigh it in. if anything, i like looking at all aspects. and dont wanna rush in since it will be an automatic investement with the tomes i have for him.

[wamjratl1]

18/2 Rogue Ranger

CON's
1. Matches the fighter splash in Skill set allocation
2. Has 1 Favored Enemy This is just ok really since with only 2 levels rgr you don't get any FE enhancements.
3. Has Bow Strength
4. Rapid Shot Bow Str and Rapid shot are useless as ranged feats by themselves. They can moderately fun when soloing cuz they let you get a few extra shots off and you'll hit better but you're still better off meleeing 99.9% of the time.
5. Optional Sprint Boost and Wand Use (But devalued as a WF heal) Sprint boost is nice (but still meh). Wand usage is negated by UMD as you level up. And yeah if you're WF then not just meh but bleh.
6. 5 Attacks per round

CON's
1. Lowes in Bas HP at 308
2. Low Will save coming in at base 5

Above comments based on 3 yrs experience. I'm a Rogue 18 / Rgr2. Built him that way 3 years ago for the same reasons you listed but none of them are really worth for most folks IMO. But for some reason I'm sticking with it lol (flavor, I guess?). How about a rog 19 / Barb 1? Faster movement and a little bit of xtra rage is more useful than any of the 2 lvls of rgr stuff...