Give it to me straight and simple...

[elricken]

So I have trying to help a guildie understand that khopeshes are better dps than bastard swords. Am I correct and if so someone please provide me with an answer why.. Too busy with homework to figure out my own formulas.

[Ninetoes]

So I have trying to help a guildie understand that khopeshes are better dps than bastard swords. Am I correct and if so someone please provide me with an answer why.. Too busy with homework to figure out my own formulas.

You don't need a formula. All you need is a working computer and a little common sense.

Khopesh
Khopesh (one-handed)
Equips to: Main Hand, Off Hand
Exotic Weapon Proficiency
Base Damage Rating: 5.40
Damage: (1-8) 1d8 + 0 Slash
Critical Roll: (10%/3-24) 19 - 20 / x3
Attack Mod: Strength (+3)
Damage Mod: Strength (+3)

Bastard Sword
Bastard Sword (one-handed)
Equips to: Main Hand, Off Hand
Exotic Weapon Proficiency
Base Damage Rating: 6.05
Damage: (1-10) 1d10 + 0 Slash
Critical Roll: (10%/2-20) 19 - 20 / x2
Attack Mod: Strength (+2)
Damage Mod: Strength (+2)

[gavagai]

So I have trying to help a guildie understand that khopeshes are better dps than bastard swords. Am I correct and if so someone please provide me with an answer why.. Too busy with homework to figure out my own formulas.

Here is a layman's description which will undoubtedly irk some of the computational experts here.

Kopesh has the same probability of scoring a crit than a bastard sword. (19-20) But when it crits, it triples damage rather than doubles it, as all other swords do.

So out of every 20 attacks with a Bastard sword, you get 2 crits for double damage -- essentially, its like getting 22 hits.

Out of every 20 attacks with kopesh, you get 2 crits for triple damage: that's like getting 24 hits.

Now the Kopesh's d8 is, on average, 1 damage less than the Bastard sword's d10. So in general, the Bastard Sword user is scoring 22 more damage than the Kopesh user from base damage over the course of those 20 hits. But is getting the equivalent of 2 fewer attacks.

So in general, when your bonuses to each attack are pretty small, the bastard sword wins out due to the base damage differential. But when each hit starts doing 70-80 damage per hit, the 22 extra damage from the bastard sword pales next to the possible extra 140-160 damage from crits.

The only other exception is when fighting creatures with high Fortification. (i.e. immune to crits) Then, unless you have a Kopesh with lots of burst effects, the Bastard Sword should do a little more than a Kopesh.

[Ninetoes]

These numbers are even more apparent in the hands of a TWF paladin, or any other Crit-heavy build (I only have experience with Paladin so I won't expand on that.)

[elricken]

You don't need a formula. All you need is a working computer and a little common sense.

Yes thank you I understand the difference between X3 and X2 crits.
....

Anyways, what I should have put in the original post is the comparison between gs khopheses and gs bastard swords:

Green steel khopeshes deal between 1 and 10 base damage per strike (1d10)

Green steel bastard swords deal between 2 and 16 base damage per strike (2d8)

Now my actual question (apologies for the poorly phrased original post) is which has higher average (versus all mobs in game) dps taking into account the fortificaton of enemies and the high base damage of a gs bastard sword.

[Xionanx]

I once did a DPS calculation.. hold on.. let me see if I can recall the jist of it.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=101

There we go, man thats some old data, that was orginally a comparison of Unarmed VS DA/Khop/BstrSwd. Anyway, if you look at Dwarven Axe and Bastard swords you will see they actually have a DPS advantage over Khopeshs. As a TWF your friend would be better served going with Dwarven Axe's or Bastard swords.

While number of attacks have changed in the recent mods, the "base" damage that these weapons do has not.

Or, how about I just make a "new" calc comparing just the two weapons in question.
Here is a Comparison between just a BLANK GS Bastard Sword and a BLANK GS Khopesh on a toon with 36 STR

The lesson, if you want "Big Numbers Crits" go with Khopeshs.. if you want to do the most possible DPS and dont care about the epeen "I just crit for 200 damage!" then use bastard swords.

[Ninetoes]

Yes thank you I understand the difference between X3 and X2 crits.
....

Anyways, what I should have put in the original post is the comparison between gs khopheses and gs bastard swords:

Green steel khopeshes deal between 1 and 10 base damage per strike (1d10)

Green steel bastard swords deal between 2 and 16 base damage per strike (2d8)

Now my actual question (apologies for the poorly phrased original post) is which has higher average (versus all mobs in game) dps taking into account the fortificaton of enemies and the high base damage of a gs bastard sword.

That is a completely different question than the one you originally posed I'm not getting into that one, as I'm sure the experts will soon be flocking here to debate the minute differences. Flame on!

[elricken]

That is a completely different question than the one you originally posed I'm not getting into that one, as I'm sure the experts will soon be flocking here to debate the minute differences. Flame on!

I realize and I apologize concerning the poorly worded question (head is hurting from math homework).

Hopefully there will be no flaming.. I just want a straight answer.

[elricken]

I once did a DPS calculation.. hold on.. let me see if I can recall the jist of it.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=101

There we go, man thats some old data, that was orginally a comparison of Unarmed VS DA/Khop/BstrSwd. Anyway, if you look at Dwarven Axe and Bastard swords you will see they actually have a DPS advantage over Khopeshs. As a TWF your friend would be better served going with Dwarven Axe's or Bastard swords.

While number of attacks have changed in the recent mods, the "base" damage that these weapons do has not.

Or, how about I just make a "new" calc comparing just the two weapons in question.
Here is a Comparison between just a BLANK GS Bastard Sword and a BLANK GS Khopesh on a toon with 36 STR

The lesson, if you want "Big Numbers Crits" go with Khopeshs.. if you want to do the most possible DPS and dont care about the epeen "I just crit for 200 damage!" then use bastard swords.

Some interesting data here, I will pass this on to my guildie. Thank you for your in depth research and reply.

[Xionanx]

edited for delayed respone.

[Vanshilar]

Eh the problem with those graphs is that they don't take into account a lot of how the weapons are actually used. For example, you assume the weapons used are green steel (which gives a large advantage to the bastard sword over the khopesh compared with their regular variant) but that the character (or the weapon) doesn't have improved critical -- which is usually very much a given if you already have GS. Also, you assume that power attack isn't used. These things all stack the deck against the khopesh in favor of the bastard sword.

The khopesh more or less relies on its crits. With improved critical, it crits on a roll of 17-20, and it does x3 damage when it does crit, so effectively the crits multiply the damage by 1.4x as a rough measure (I'm going to ignore stuff like miss-on-1 and whether or not the crits are confirmed for this) since it'll crit 20% of the time and each time it crits it'll do triple damage. This is higher than any other weapon; for the bastard sword, the crits will only multiply the damage by 1.3x. The khopesh also does well when the character is fully geared out as compared to when the character doesn't have that much equipment; this is because with many + damage modifiers, the fairly mediocre weapon dice damage relative to other weapons is less of an issue (this is why I brought up that power attack wasn't included).

You can sort of consider the situation to be like this:
Khopesh damage: (5.5 + Damage) * 1.4
Bastard sword damage: (9 + Damage) * 1.3

"Damage" will include everything from the strength modifier to power attack to ram's might to a bunch of other things. Again, I want to stress that this is a very simplified view of what actually goes on. The 1.4 for khopesh is what its crits effectively do (again, I'm ignoring stuff like miss-on-1 for simplicity) and the 1.3 for bastard sword is what its crits effectively do as well. You can see that as your character's damage enhancements go up, at some point the khopesh damage will surpass the bastard sword damage.

There are other things -- such as that the khopesh benefits more from burst/blast damage since its multiplier is x3 instead of x2 -- that are more subtle and technical, but I think this is probably the easiest one to explain.

There's no such thing as which is better against "all mobs in game" because for different situations, different weapons will be better. For high-fort mobs, you want a weapon with a good base damage (such as the bastard sword or the dwarven axe). For low-fort mobs, you'll want a weapon with good crits (such as the khopesh). You can see this in the above damage formulas by changing the khopesh one from 1.4 to 1.2, and the bastard sword one from 1.3 to 1.15 (to simulate 50% fort), and see how the numbers change (as to how much +damage stuff you need before the khopesh surpasses the bastard sword). And then there's stuff like sneak attacks, for which the "GS" will become a radiance 2 rapier or something (for the widest critical range so that you can get sneak attacks as soon as possible). And paladins might favor heavy picks due to the high critical multiplier to go with smites. Then there's how the different races get racial enhancements to different weapons. So there's no "one size fits all" weapon.

Edit: By the way, you can also check out this thread:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=224786

I link to some pretty graphs of how the different weapons will compare. For the most part -- qualitatively anyway -- you can just consider the bastard sword to be like a dwarven axe in the discussion and in the graphs. The trend will be the same -- the difference is only in minor details such as where the crossover point (i.e. how much +damage you need before khopesh starts being better than bastard sword) is and things like that.

Anyhow, from the graphs you can see the basic gist, that the khopesh starts with lower base damage but gains more per +damage point due to its better criticals. Monster fortification (which reduces the number of criticals) will reduce how much the different weapons gain from each +damage point. So with low fort (and geared characters), weapons like the khopesh are more powerful; when monsters have high fort, weapons with higher base damage (like the bastard sword or the dwarven axe) are more powerful.

[gavagai]

This is not using Greensteel, just for a taste.

Here are some greensteel calculations. Mod 9, tho.

From Gfunk:

-most builds include: madstone, bloodstone, tharnes, +4 tomes*, mineral II weapons (damaging 3rd tiers).
-standard buffs include: prayer (n/a on builds with divine favor), inspire courage (currently at +7 throughout this thread, at some point I'll have to update to +9), and haste.

Hope this helps. And good luck -- just mentioning comparative DPS makes people here crazy.

[Feylina]

I use this formula when comparing 2 weapons considering they are the same upgrade (ie min II) and all my crit bonuses are the same (seeker or +damage on crit from kensai) then i just have to work the numbers from the +damage and crit effects.

b = Average base damage
x = +damage (will use +30 to damage after showing the formula)
w = crit effect. in this case it's a good burst.
y=crit range (as a decimal %)
z=crit multiplyer

all other prefix / suffix effects will cancel out
assuming improved crit slashing

GS Khopesh

b + x + (y)(z-1)(x + b) + (y)(w) =
5.5 + x + .4(x + 5.5) + .2(14)
5.5 + 1.4x + 2.2 + 2.8 =
10.5 + 1.4x
~~ 10.5 + 42 = 52.5

GS Bastard Sword

b + x + (y)(z-1)(x + b) + (y)(w) =
9 + x + .2(x + 9) + .2(10.5)
9 + 1.2x + 1.8 + 2.1 =
12.9 + 1.2x
~~12.9 + 36 = 48.9


As you can see here. with a good burst effect they are about the same damage at +30 damage. However, add higher +damage and the gap is only going to get wider.

lets try that. if it's still screwed up i'm a numpty and not allowed near a calculator for at least a week.

[Robai]

Correct me if I'm wrong:

1) Without "Improved Critical for Slashing" and without "Power Critical" feats:

Khopesh
Damage: (1-8) 1d8 + 0 Slash
Critical Roll: (10%/3-24) 19 - 20 / x3
Average damage = 0.9*(1+8)/2 + 0.1*3*(1+8)/2 = 5.4

Bastard Sword
Damage: (1-10) 1d10 + 0 Slash
Critical Roll: (10%/2-20) 19 - 20 / x2
Average damage = 0.9*(1+10)/2 + 0.1*2*(1+10)/2 = 6.05


2) With "Improved Critical for Slashing" feat and without "Power Critical" feat:

Khopesh
Critical Roll: 17 - 20 / x3
Average damage = 0.8*(1+8)/2 + 0.2*3*(1+8)/2 = 6.3

Bastard Sword
Critical Roll: 17 - 20 / x2
Average damage = 0.8*(1+10)/2 + 0.2*2*(1+10)/2 = 6.6


3) Without "Improved Critical for Slashing" feat and with "Power Critical" feat:

Khopesh
Critical Roll: 15 - 20 / x3
Average damage = 0.7*(1+8)/2 + 0.3*3*(1+8)/2 = 7.2

Bastard Sword
Critical Roll: 15 - 20 / x2
Average damage = 0.7*(1+10)/2 + 0.3*2*(1+10)/2 = 7.15


4) With "Improved Critical for Slashing" feat and with "Power Critical" feat:

Khopesh
Critical Roll: 13 - 20 / x3
Average damage = 0.6*(1+8)/2 + 0.4*3*(1+8)/2 = 8.1

Bastard Sword
Critical Roll: 13 - 20 / x2
Average damage = 0.6*(1+10)/2 + 0.4*2*(1+10)/2 = 7.7


5) "Improved Critical for Slashing" feat + "Power Critical" feat + "Fighter Critical Accuracy I" enhancement:

Khopesh
Critical Roll: 11 - 20 / x3
Average damage = 0.5*(1+8)/2 + 0.5*3*(1+8)/2 = 9.0

Bastard Sword
Critical Roll: 11 - 20 / x2
Average damage = 0.5*(1+10)/2 + 0.5*2*(1+10)/2 = 8.25

6) "Improved Critical for Slashing" feat + "Power Critical" feat + "Fighter Critical Accuracy II" enhancement:

Khopesh
Critical Roll: 9 - 20 / x3
Average damage = 0.4*(1+8)/2 + 0.6*3*(1+8)/2 = 9.9

Bastard Sword
Critical Roll: 9 - 20 / x2
Average damage = 0.4*(1+10)/2 + 0.6*2*(1+10)/2 = 8.8

And so on ...

[blitzschlag]

check this

[Vormaerin]

Power Critical and Fighter Critical Accuracy don't do jack for damage. They are not the equivalent of Seeker, which adds to crit confirmation and damage. Power Crit and Crit Accuracy just add to confirm crits, which most high DPS types do without the help of those bonuses.

[blitzschlag]

Correct me if I'm wrong:

1) Without "Improved Critical for Slashing" and without "Power Critical" feats:
as has been said before, Power Critical does nothing if you assume you hit anyway on a 2

Khopesh
Damage: (1-8) 1d8 + 0 Slash
Critical Roll: (10%/3-24) 19 - 20 / x3
Average damage = 0.9*(1+8)/2 + 0.1*3*(1+8)/2 = 5.4
actually you have to factor in at least a 5% misschance as you will always miss on a rolled 1
so it would be (0.85*((1+8)/2) + (0.1*3*((1+8)/2)) = 5.175

Bastard Sword
Damage: (1-10) 1d10 + 0 Slash
Critical Roll: (10%/2-20) 19 - 20 / x2
Average damage = 0.9*(1+10)/2 + 0.1*2*(1+10)/2 = 6.05
actually you have to factor in at least a 5% misschance as you will always miss on a rolled 1
so it would be (0.85*((1+10)/2) + (0.1*2*((1+10)/2)) = 5.775


2) With "Improved Critical for Slashing" feat and without "Power Critical" feat:
as has been said before, Power Critical does nothing if you assume you hit anyway on a 2

Khopesh
Critical Roll: 17 - 20 / x3
Average damage = 0.8*(1+8)/2 + 0.2*3*(1+8)/2 = 6.3
actually you have to factor in at least a 5% misschance as you will always miss on a rolled 1
so it would be (0.75*((1+8)/2) + (0.2*3*((1+8)/2)) = 6.075

Bastard Sword
Critical Roll: 17 - 20 / x2
Average damage = 0.8*(1+10)/2 + 0.2*2*(1+10)/2 = 6.6
actually you have to factor in at least a 5% misschance as you will always miss on a rolled 1
so it would be (0.75*((1+10)/2) + (0.2*2*((1+10)/2)) = 6.325

one thing, the kopesh is ahead the more modifiers you throw at it. as noone uses a non-magic kopesh/b astard sword with a str mod of 0

lets just see a lvl 6 guy with 22 strength and a +4 plain magical weapon
kopesh (0.85*(6 strmod + 4 weapon mod + 4.5 average)) + (0.1*3*(6+4+4.5)) = 16.675

b astard sword (0.85*(6 strmod + 4 weapon mod + 5.5 average)) + (0.1*2*(6+4+5.5)) = 16.275

the kopesh gets more ahead with any burst weapon (as burst favors the higher multiplicator)




the rest is complete nonsense and does not work that way in ddo

you're wrong. see quote.

[elricken]

I appreciate all of the given information and will pass it on to my guildies.

Cheers!

[Lithic]

Ask your guildy if 2>3.

If he says no, tell him khopeshes are better for that reason. If he says yes, send his parent a letter telling them he needs a math tutor.

[KrumpetDog]

The math isn't too bad.

For Green Steel Kopesh vs Green Steel Bastard sword:

If damage mod (damage added that is multiplied with crit) is greater than 31 then the Kopesh is better.
With improved Crit then the Kopesh is better when the damage add is greater than 15.

As anyone using green steel weapons will likely be using improved crit and will for sure have damage mods greater than 15 the Kopesh is better (against critable foes).