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  1. #1
    Community Member elricken's Avatar
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    Default Give it to me straight and simple...

    So I have trying to help a guildie understand that khopeshes are better dps than bastard swords. Am I correct and if so someone please provide me with an answer why.. Too busy with homework to figure out my own formulas.
    Morfane - Cealest - Naphor - Sofu - Nairs - Morphaine
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  2. #2
    Community Member Ninetoes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elricken View Post
    So I have trying to help a guildie understand that khopeshes are better dps than bastard swords. Am I correct and if so someone please provide me with an answer why.. Too busy with homework to figure out my own formulas.
    You don't need a formula. All you need is a working computer and a little common sense.

    Khopesh
    Khopesh (one-handed)
    Equips to: Main Hand, Off Hand
    Exotic Weapon Proficiency
    Base Damage Rating: 5.40
    Damage: (1-8) 1d8 + 0 Slash
    Critical Roll: (10%/3-24) 19 - 20 / x3
    Attack Mod: Strength (+3)
    Damage Mod: Strength (+3)
    Bastard Sword
    Bastard Sword (one-handed)
    Equips to: Main Hand, Off Hand
    Exotic Weapon Proficiency
    Base Damage Rating: 6.05
    Damage: (1-10) 1d10 + 0 Slash
    Critical Roll: (10%/2-20) 19 - 20 / x2
    Attack Mod: Strength (+2)
    Damage Mod: Strength (+2)
    Quote Originally Posted by Uskathoth View Post
    As opposed to the very sensible killing of hobgoblins and magical wizards. In Pretend-Land.


  3. #3
    Community Member elricken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninetoes View Post
    You don't need a formula. All you need is a working computer and a little common sense.
    Yes thank you I understand the difference between X3 and X2 crits.
    ....

    Anyways, what I should have put in the original post is the comparison between gs khopheses and gs bastard swords:

    Green steel khopeshes deal between 1 and 10 base damage per strike (1d10)

    Green steel bastard swords deal between 2 and 16 base damage per strike (2d8)

    Now my actual question (apologies for the poorly phrased original post) is which has higher average (versus all mobs in game) dps taking into account the fortificaton of enemies and the high base damage of a gs bastard sword.
    Morfane - Cealest - Naphor - Sofu - Nairs - Morphaine
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  4. #4
    Community Member Ninetoes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elricken View Post
    Yes thank you I understand the difference between X3 and X2 crits.
    ....

    Anyways, what I should have put in the original post is the comparison between gs khopheses and gs bastard swords:

    Green steel khopeshes deal between 1 and 10 base damage per strike (1d10)

    Green steel bastard swords deal between 2 and 16 base damage per strike (2d8)

    Now my actual question (apologies for the poorly phrased original post) is which has higher average (versus all mobs in game) dps taking into account the fortificaton of enemies and the high base damage of a gs bastard sword.

    That is a completely different question than the one you originally posed I'm not getting into that one, as I'm sure the experts will soon be flocking here to debate the minute differences. Flame on!
    Quote Originally Posted by Uskathoth View Post
    As opposed to the very sensible killing of hobgoblins and magical wizards. In Pretend-Land.


  5. #5
    Community Member elricken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninetoes View Post
    That is a completely different question than the one you originally posed I'm not getting into that one, as I'm sure the experts will soon be flocking here to debate the minute differences. Flame on!
    I realize and I apologize concerning the poorly worded question (head is hurting from math homework).

    Hopefully there will be no flaming.. I just want a straight answer.
    Morfane - Cealest - Naphor - Sofu - Nairs - Morphaine
    Nerdrage


  6. #6
    Xionanx
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    edited for delayed respone.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by elricken View Post
    So I have trying to help a guildie understand that khopeshes are better dps than bastard swords. Am I correct and if so someone please provide me with an answer why.. Too busy with homework to figure out my own formulas.
    Here is a layman's description which will undoubtedly irk some of the computational experts here.

    Kopesh has the same probability of scoring a crit than a bastard sword. (19-20) But when it crits, it triples damage rather than doubles it, as all other swords do.

    So out of every 20 attacks with a Bastard sword, you get 2 crits for double damage -- essentially, its like getting 22 hits.

    Out of every 20 attacks with kopesh, you get 2 crits for triple damage: that's like getting 24 hits.

    Now the Kopesh's d8 is, on average, 1 damage less than the Bastard sword's d10. So in general, the Bastard Sword user is scoring 22 more damage than the Kopesh user from base damage over the course of those 20 hits. But is getting the equivalent of 2 fewer attacks.

    So in general, when your bonuses to each attack are pretty small, the bastard sword wins out due to the base damage differential. But when each hit starts doing 70-80 damage per hit, the 22 extra damage from the bastard sword pales next to the possible extra 140-160 damage from crits.

    The only other exception is when fighting creatures with high Fortification. (i.e. immune to crits) Then, unless you have a Kopesh with lots of burst effects, the Bastard Sword should do a little more than a Kopesh.
    Last edited by gavagai; 03-15-2010 at 08:19 PM.

  8. #8
    Community Member Ninetoes's Avatar
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    These numbers are even more apparent in the hands of a TWF paladin, or any other Crit-heavy build (I only have experience with Paladin so I won't expand on that.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Uskathoth View Post
    As opposed to the very sensible killing of hobgoblins and magical wizards. In Pretend-Land.


  9. #9
    Xionanx
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    I once did a DPS calculation.. hold on.. let me see if I can recall the jist of it.

    http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=101

    There we go, man thats some old data, that was orginally a comparison of Unarmed VS DA/Khop/BstrSwd. Anyway, if you look at Dwarven Axe and Bastard swords you will see they actually have a DPS advantage over Khopeshs. As a TWF your friend would be better served going with Dwarven Axe's or Bastard swords.

    While number of attacks have changed in the recent mods, the "base" damage that these weapons do has not.

    Or, how about I just make a "new" calc comparing just the two weapons in question.
    Here is a Comparison between just a BLANK GS Bastard Sword and a BLANK GS Khopesh on a toon with 36 STR

    The lesson, if you want "Big Numbers Crits" go with Khopeshs.. if you want to do the most possible DPS and dont care about the epeen "I just crit for 200 damage!" then use bastard swords.
    Last edited by Xionanx; 03-15-2010 at 08:40 PM.

  10. #10
    Community Member elricken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xionanx View Post
    I once did a DPS calculation.. hold on.. let me see if I can recall the jist of it.

    http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=101

    There we go, man thats some old data, that was orginally a comparison of Unarmed VS DA/Khop/BstrSwd. Anyway, if you look at Dwarven Axe and Bastard swords you will see they actually have a DPS advantage over Khopeshs. As a TWF your friend would be better served going with Dwarven Axe's or Bastard swords.

    While number of attacks have changed in the recent mods, the "base" damage that these weapons do has not.

    Or, how about I just make a "new" calc comparing just the two weapons in question.
    Here is a Comparison between just a BLANK GS Bastard Sword and a BLANK GS Khopesh on a toon with 36 STR

    The lesson, if you want "Big Numbers Crits" go with Khopeshs.. if you want to do the most possible DPS and dont care about the epeen "I just crit for 200 damage!" then use bastard swords.
    Some interesting data here, I will pass this on to my guildie. Thank you for your in depth research and reply.
    Morfane - Cealest - Naphor - Sofu - Nairs - Morphaine
    Nerdrage


  11. #11
    Community Member elricken's Avatar
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    Default Thx peeps

    I appreciate all of the given information and will pass it on to my guildies.

    Cheers!
    Morfane - Cealest - Naphor - Sofu - Nairs - Morphaine
    Nerdrage


  12. #12
    Uber Completionist Lithic's Avatar
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    Ask your guildy if 2>3.

    If he says no, tell him khopeshes are better for that reason. If he says yes, send his parent a letter telling them he needs a math tutor.
    Star Firefall
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  13. #13
    Community Member KrumpetDog's Avatar
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    The math isn't too bad.

    For Green Steel Kopesh vs Green Steel Bastard sword:

    If damage mod (damage added that is multiplied with crit) is greater than 31 then the Kopesh is better.
    With improved Crit then the Kopesh is better when the damage add is greater than 15.

    As anyone using green steel weapons will likely be using improved crit and will for sure have damage mods greater than 15 the Kopesh is better (against critable foes).

  14. #14
    Community Member Lord_Legolas's Avatar
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    I agree that the Khopesh is a better statically. Statically! Someone mentioned 'averages' Now your 'thinking!' Look at the combat window sometime!

    I've seen this play out many times before... Now you should go and do a cost benifit analysis between the bswords and khopeshes at the AH. Unless your guildie has a hoard of them somewhere... Probably better off going with DAxes, or BSwords... I've seen at least 10 people try to go to with khopeshes, but end up giving up because they can not afford the prices to get good ones, nor do they pull any good ones. Sadly my wife will probably be another one that discovers this out. I have one guildie, one out of at least 10, and hes been saving khopeshes for 3 years and now he's busted them out!

    It all comes down to 'your'/'their' playstyle
    Hogmire 20 Sorc Raigor 18 Ranger/1 Rogue/1 Monk ® Falnor 15 Centar (Reborn)® 6 Ranger Boothby 20 Bard Dakama 20 Sorc Dragnost 20 PaladinDraggie Cookies! NOM-NOM-NOM!!!
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  15. #15
    Community Member Vormaerin's Avatar
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    Availability of weapons is certainly a factor in any exotic weapon build. By definition, you are spending a valuable feat on just one weapon type of the many in the game. If you do not have (or do not trust the loot gods to provide) a particular weapon of the type you want, don't bother with the exotic weapon proficiency initially. You can always respect for it later when you do have the weapons. Just use the best scimitar or even longsword that you come across until you have the weapons you want (or the opportunity to raid craft them). Until you get improved crit and tons of stacking damage modifiers, the difference isn't all that meaningful.

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