Improve Drows + other suggestions

[Thriand]

I think Drow are perfect the way they are. They are a kind of stepping stone on the way to 32pt builds and serve as a crutch until you do.
Once you get 32pt builds you have slightly better options than drow.... Sounds good to me.

Unfortunately because of the relative uselessness of both int and cha on most builds drow aren't inherently better than a 28 pt build just because they have higher base stats and if you top that off with the fact that drow enhancements are the absolute worse across all the races and I think it is pretty reasonable to ask that drow get a little dev love. After all it is pretty unreasonable to advertise a race that has to be unlocked and it be completely useless when compared to the standard races.

Besides no race in this game should "lag behind" Turbine is finally allowing us to turn old 28 pt builds into 32 pt build via greater reincarnation but I guess those poor people who unlocked and played drow should be forced to true reincarnate.

[Danmor]

@Emili: I am quite aware that GH quests can be done much earlier than lvl 13ish. But if you don't know the quest, don't have the spare change for some resources and are below level you'll probably find it much harder to complete.
Yes, dungeon scaling and all that stuff made it much easier than it used to be (I do remember wiping in there a couple of times when the package came out) but for a newish player it's still a challenge.

@Krag: I didn't want to come off cranky, I just think that Drow are not that bad and for me they are kind of inbetween 28pt builds and 32pt builds. They do have some advantages that make them viable for certain builds, but until the next enhancement system overhaul they're not optimal.

[Thriand]

I didn't want to come off cranky, I just think that Drow are not that bad and for me they are kind of inbetween 28pt builds and 32pt builds. They do have some advantages that make them viable for certain builds, but until the next enhancement system overhaul they're not optimal.

But they question is why you think that a race that has to be unlocked, or more importantly bought with real money, should be inferior.

The whole reason 32 pt builds were introduced were to balance the playing field so that races didn't get left behind, now the premium race is behind the regular races which shouldn't happen.

[Emili]

Unfortunately because of the relative uselessness of both int and cha on most builds drow aren't inherently better than a 28 pt build just because they have higher base stats and if you top that off with the fact that drow enhancements are the absolute worse across all the races and I think it is pretty reasonable to ask that drow get a little dev love. After all it is pretty unreasonable to advertise a race that has to be unlocked and it be completely useless when compared to the standard races.

Besides no race in this game should "lag behind" Turbine is finally allowing us to turn old 28 pt builds into 32 pt build via greater reincarnation but I guess those poor people who unlocked and played drow should be forced to true reincarnate.

Exactly... I tried to point out that drow fell behind other races only due to the enhancement system openning up and the fact that the enhancements decided upon for drow - basically suck. Before the enhancement system openned up you could only have four enhancement lines on a character, most of the lines we have today did not exist, and really a drow cleric for instance was arguably more powerful then a 32 point human or dwarf one... as they did not have human daptability nor had HP been so relivant at the time as racial toughness only existed for Dwarf and WF and even those builds . Bards, Pallys, Rogues Sorc, Wizard (even with human extra base feat) Drow were aguably among the viable powerful options in building these classes. They fell by the wayside only due to their enhancements being outdated by newer enhancements added to other races ...

[Angelus_dead]

that will not be useful when scaled to Epic content.

Whether something is useful in epic is not a valid requirement. Epic mode is screwed up and abnegates a lot of features that are otherwise meaningful.

However, suppose Drow could get an amount of SR that stacked ontop of SR from other sources... that would give them the best chance of ever using SR to deflect an epic opponent's spell.

[undercover69]

But /notsigned on scimitars. I think you underestimate rapiers. They have the same damage as Scimitars, are finesseable, and with piercing they have many beneficial properties.

My guess is that SR will remain gimpy; any SR superior to monk SR or cleric's cast SR will probably be too powerful as a passive effect; and SR less then that will not be useful when scaled to Epic content.

Your guess is correct. Being familiar with only the earlier levels (up to invaders) content I have not found much use to rapiers. Now that you mentioned I looked up Monster DR Bypass and indeed rapiers have their uses. Now my guess is that you thought I was talking about replacing enhancements, but I'm proposing adding to. So you'd still have the rapier line if you want that with the option of going scimitar if that suits you better.

Regarding the SR, you're not really expecting a race to get something for epic content, are you? SR 10 + level can be very useful throughout the entire game, specially soloing or in small groups. Sometimes a bard plays the role of healer, or the ranger or pally. Great for family/RL friends closed groups. You get the picture. And suddenly now you can tank, or at least annoy the casters. Not meant to be uber.

[Maxou69]

I have to say that drows in DDO are not as powerfull as they were in the other games I played. I remember Viconia in Baldur's Gate 1 who started at 50% spell resistance. (She was immune to 50% her own heals) They hopefully fixed that in BG II. In NWN they were awsome and got a leveling penalty to compensate their uberness.

By the way TURBINE, I see in the Drows promo screen: "They can use exotics weapons..." ehhhh? Wich multiples exotics weapons? Shuriken and shuriken? Ah ok, you meant that you can throw more than one shuriken between level 1 and level 20. Cool, I'm goona build a kensai drow shuriken master

[undercover69]

However, suppose Drow could get an amount of SR that stacked ontop of SR from other sources... that would give them the best chance of ever using SR to deflect an epic opponent's spell.

Thats a cool idea. Circumstance bonus to SR line, or something like that, with 4 tiers up to +4 bonus to SR from any other source, including drow's existing SR line. Seconded!

[gavagai]

Whether something is useful in epic is not a valid requirement. Epic mode is screwed up and abnegates a lot of features that are otherwise meaningful.

However, suppose Drow could get an amount of SR that stacked ontop of SR from other sources... that would give them the best chance of ever using SR to deflect an epic opponent's spell.

Of course I don't think its useless if it doesn't work in Epic. But I think it is best to "balance" by giving something that they benefit from at all levels. +2 to hit and damage can be relevant in all content; +2 to saves the same; +20% healing amp the same. These are benefits that aren't mere conveniences at low levels; if Drow SR is designed as such a convenience, I think it fail to make drow more attractive.

I like the idea of a proportion of the SR stacking; it could be similar to the alacrity bonus of monks; 10+level SR, with 1/5th an insight bonus that stacks. Thus, even if a 38 SR (32 from Cleric, +6 stacking from racial SR) is utterly useless in Epic, the Drow has something representing its racial heritage. A Drow Monk would at least have that theoretical synergy of monk SR + Drow SR, as well.

[Krag]

Regarding the SR, you're not really expecting a race to get something for epic content, are you? SR 10 + level can be very useful throughout the entire game, specially soloing or in small groups. Sometimes a bard plays the role of healer, or the ranger or pally. Great for family/RL friends closed groups. You get the picture. And suddenly now you can tank, or at least annoy the casters. Not meant to be uber.

I DO expect a race to get something for epic and any other tougher-than-regular content.
Halfling Cunning/Guile IS useful in epic. Human Improved Recovery IS useful in epic. Dwarven Spell Defence IS useful in epic. WF immunities ARE useful in epic.

[undercover69]

WF immunities ARE useful in epic.

Indeed they are.

[DreamSlinger]

Drows

B) Scimitar and light crossbow. I dont know where this rapier/shortsword/shuriken came from but its near useless as the first 2 are piercing and shuriken pales in comparison to other thrown weapons.

In the Monster Manual and other PnP resources, Drow had proficiency with Rapiers and Short Swords.

I'm not sure about the shuriken bit but I'm pretty sure that they had proficiency with the Hand Crossbow.

[Wickednisse]

To the OP's suggestions: Why should drow be improved? They're basically pre-made 32pt characters with some added perks.



Summary:
/not signed + /not signed

I unlocked the drow race, and was so happy about it. Then I researched the forums and found that the only viable end game classes for a drow are a paladin and a wizard (the wizard not being solo friendly). To go against the grain I rolled a drow rogue and guess what I hear? 'You should have rolled a halfling, human, etc, you are going to get out dpsed at 20 by them so you're just wasting your time.' And yes, I have HEARD that from various individuals I've encountered in the game.

Drow need something that makes them viable for something other than a paladin or wizard (it may have been sorc, I don't remember). My initial plan once I unlocked the race was to roll a drow monk, that idea was quickly stomped into the hereafter with all of the people that told me it would be a horribad mistake that would be a waste of a character slot and time.

I'm sorry but I don't want to have to stare at something that looks like the missing link for 20 levels - aka a halfling (sorry but they have THE worst body proportion I've ever seen) and watch this hunched over arms dragging the ground thing.

It makes me regret buying the drow race, I've even been tempted to try and have the toon deleted and my points reimbursed because I feel as though my end game fun won't be found when I finally finish the long trek to 20.

[Uska]

In the Monster Manual and other PnP resources, Drow had proficiency with Rapiers and Short Swords.

I'm not sure about the shuriken bit but I'm pretty sure that they had proficiency with the Hand Crossbow.

in greyhawk and forgotten realms they get hand crossbows on eberron they get shirken

[Uska]

I unlocked the drow race, and was so happy about it. Then I researched the forums and found that the only viable end game classes for a drow are a paladin and a wizard (the wizard not being solo friendly). To go against the grain I rolled a drow rogue and guess what I hear? 'You should have rolled a halfling, human, etc, you are going to get out dpsed at 20 by them so you're just wasting your time.' And yes, I have HEARD that from various individuals I've encountered in the game.

Drow need something that makes them viable for something other than a paladin or wizard (it may have been sorc, I don't remember). My initial plan once I unlocked the race was to roll a drow monk, that idea was quickly stomped into the hereafter with all of the people that told me it would be a horribad mistake that would be a waste of a character slot and time.

I'm sorry but I don't want to have to stare at something that looks like the missing link for 20 levels - aka a halfling (sorry but they have THE worst body proportion I've ever seen) and watch this hunched over arms dragging the ground thing.

It makes me regret buying the drow race, I've even been tempted to try and have the toon deleted and my points reimbursed because I feel as though my end game fun won't be found when I finally finish the long trek to 20.

Drow are fine even more so if you dont have 32pt builds my drow monk was my first and only character so far to make lvl 20(I play to many alts and reroll to much) I did tr her to a human and proably will tr her back to drow at somepoint but she did fine and never was she a waste of time or a slot often she was the only one left alive hauling everyone back to the shrine I still play drow for several classes my paladin is one so is my bard my wizard my rogue they dont need jucing up.

[Wickednisse]

Drow are fine even more so if you dont have 32pt builds my drow monk was my first and only character so far to make lvl 20(I play to many alts and reroll to much) I did tr her to a human and proably will tr her back to drow at somepoint but she did fine and never was she a waste of time or a slot often she was the only one left alive hauling everyone back to the shrine I still play drow for several classes my paladin is one so is my bard my wizard my rogue they dont need jucing up.

Uska, do you mind my asking what build you used for your monk? I know that Rockan Robin is the flavor of the month but it plays on halflings and a 32 point build which I do not have access to. I've searched high and low for some good solid advice on this.

PM me please as I don't want to derail this thread.

P.S. I have pie and cookies? (Or any other baked goody you can imagine!)

[Uska]

will try to remember and let you know but she was a ac build and all lvl ups to dex and used several +2 tomes plus gained 2 +3 tomes from reaver dex and wis she had combat expertise. not now as a human though. started con at 14 and str I think rest into dex and wis.

[Aschbart]

My normal learning curve is doing a dungeon 3x with a group before I can solo it

Interesting. My experience is that running in a group is usually the worst way of learning a dungeon, unless it's really too hard to solo or if there's at least one person in the group willing to explain special things to know about it. Most groups simply rush through the dungeon, whether or not they know what to do and expect, secretly hoping that *someone* will eventually do the right thing. Unfortunately it is almost impossible to learn anything from such groups, except the general layout of the dungeon, or at least that part that you absolutely need to trespass to finish the quest.

Therefore I prefer to first solo a dungeon and take my time about it, too. That way I can run at my own speed, carefully explore each and every corner, read whatever bit of info is provided along the way, and learn the important bits you need to know for finishing the quest, or just a bit of flavor story. I often sneak even with a non-sneak build, just to get a better idea of my surroundings before actually attacking a group. When I find a group too challenging to just roll into, I'll pull back, and try to draw some away from the group with ranged attacks.

As I said, it takes time, and sometimes no amount of careful advancement can prepare me for surprises springing on me. But on my second run I usually know these particular spots, and if I feel I'm lacking the means to overcome them without severe use of resources, then I simply don't bother running it again on solo. When i then join a group for such a qust however, I already know the layout and what to watch out for, and that is to the advantage of the group.

If I fail to solo a quest even after careful exploration and planning (on the retries), then I know I need a group. If I run with a group and fail I'll never know (being an unexperienced player myself) whether it's the group or myself that's lacking.

[Cyr]

Stacking SR as drow enhancements that others are talking about sounds great.

OP's second idea...omg no. Dungeon Scaling would have to be renamed impossible to fail mode.

[Aschbart]

I too like the idea of boosting the SR enhancements in some way to the point where they actually make sense compared to readily available items or spells.

Regarding shuriken - I actually like the flavor, but shuriken in general suffer greatly from the lack of useful returning variants, and the lack of containers for throwing weapons! Shuriken should have a greater attack rate than other ranged weapons (I know this breaks PnP rules - but nobody will ever use them without some kind of boost), to make up for the lackluster damage.