Barb FB / Cleric

[shurakaibob]

Hello,

sorry if this was discussed before (looked for it but havent found).

All of below is only theoretical thinking as i m quite a new player and dont know if (or how) things would work out in the end. Also dont look to deep in spelling errors (no native english speaker here;-)

Background for the build idea was that i started a barbarian, raced literally through quests and loved him but even at low level i noticed the difficulties about the "defense" barbarians had. And i believe immediatly that this wont get better.

I dont think you can get a very high AC with them so there are 2 possibilities left to make them more durable (and especially for me more solo friendly):
- trying not to get hit (with blur, displacement and such from dragonmarks, umd, spells etc) or
- having enough hps and heal myself after a tough fight.

That last combined with the idea to have some nice buffs which i can cast myself and human impr.recovery lets me think perhaps this is a not too bad try.

Like i said, i dont have experience in high lvls and this wont of course be the best build in a specific thing (like dps, or AC, spells etc) but perhaps someone can examine if it would be nice build to play solo and/or in small groups, or if i had overseen some important fact.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.32
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Chaotic Good Human Male
(1 Fighter \ 12 Barbarian \ 7 Cleric) 
Hit Points: 352
Spell Points: 327 
BAB: 18\18\23\28\28
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 5
Will: 11

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             17                 21                   22
Dexterity             8                  8                    8
Constitution         13                 13                   16
Intelligence         12                 13                   13
Wisdom               14                 14                   14
Charisma              8                  8                    8

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               1                     3
Bluff                -1                    -1
Concentration         1                    21
Diplomacy            -1                    -1
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle               -1                    -1
Heal                  4                    10
Hide                 -1                    -1
Intimidate            3                    18
Jump                  7                    24
Listen                2                     2
Move Silently        -1                    -1
Open Lock            n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair                1                     1
Search                3                    12
Spot                  4                    13
Swim                  3                     6
Tumble               n/a                   n/a
Use Magic Device     n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I
Enhancement: Barbarian Willpower I
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness I


Level 2 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I


Level 3 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I


Level 4 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Reduction Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Intimidate I
Enhancement: Barbarian Improved Trap Sense I


Level 5 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Improved Damage Reduction I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I


Level 6 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II


Level 7 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 8 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack II
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness II


Level 9 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker I


Level 10 (Barbarian)


Level 11 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Barbarian Improved Damage Reduction II
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage II


Level 12 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II


Level 13 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage III


Level 14 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Constitution I


Level 15 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Trip
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution II


Level 16 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack III


Level 17 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage III


Level 18 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Barbarian Critical Rage I


Level 19 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost III
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker II


Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Trip) I
Enhancement: Barbarian Improved Trap Sense II

For feats i m not sure if impr.Trip is really worth it, so perhaps i can free there 2 other feats and some attribute points. Also please dont look to deep in skills as i spend them just as i leveled without spending to much thoughts in them. Reflex save is horrific but i tried to compensate this a bit with trap sense from barb.
Tried to level them so that it would be ok at nearly all levels and not from a more optimal point of view. Stopped and checked at some lvls how he would do and allways think of him at not to bad.

Last lvl fighter i m really not sure.... thought of taking rogue at lvl 1 to raise umd but well.... decided for fighter because of bonusfeat. Without impr.trip (and combat expertise of course) i would ve taken rogue i think.

[Kaervas]

You can't cast while raged, and you will have less rages per day, weaker rage, and lose access to the amazing FBIII.
This means you cannot heal yourself during a fight, and if you urgently need to, you will have to dismiss one of your very limited rages to do so, and eventually your rages will run out and a large part of your combat strength is lost.

On the cleric side, your Heal won't be at maximum potential in terms of caster level, your SP will be very underdeveloped, and your number of buffs will be limited and only last a short time.


Just go pure barbarian and pack a cleric hireling to follow you around.
A lot of stuff is very doable even on a low-defense character simply due to dungeon scaling. The hireling will kick scaling up just a little bit (not as much as having a second real player along) but it will save you a lot of time and money that would be spent on buying and drinking cure/repair serious potions.

[Bacab]

you also may want to try RNG or PLD. Both can wand whip. PLD gets more survivibility with Lay on Hands and etc. RNG gets more DPS (overall, I am aware burst damage on certain mobs PLD is extremely strong).

I would check out both of these classes and they may be more in line with what you want.

[shurakaibob]

Thanks for your insights!

Well i have 2 rages less than a pure lvl 20 barbarian with identical enhancements (ok perhaps i change some and take more extra rages) and 1 rage less than a 18/2 or something split. Which i think isnt that great loss for what i gain in my opinion.

Ok, losing FB III and not being able to cast spells while rage is really the greatest drawbacks i see but till now as i ve seen dungeons there are many small fights and perhaps 1,2 big ones so healing after a fight wouldnt be to bad. Hmm few spellpoints are also tough...

I really admit its not the perfect build (or even in the same world near it ;-) but a barbarian with that much strength, able to cast restoration, deathward, neutralize poison, freedom of movement, divine power and recitation (only the 4th lvl spells i think notable) looks really new player friendly (i m confident all these effects can be produced with different items) and i can cast the cure wounds spells thoughout leveling till cure critical with +40%healings.
And perhaps the spellpoints are ok, i mean i dont need to keep these buffs all up the whole time in dungeon.

But as i said (2 times at least i think;-) i m not that experienced ingame and really appreciate your help and suggestions and will definatly give hirelings a chance.

[Kaervas]

restoration, deathward, neutralize poison, freedom of movement, divine power and recitation

Lesser Restoration is available via potions.
Regular Restoration is nice to have, I'll agree, but I play a Warforged so much of the need for it is gone (as they are immune to level drain, exhaustion, etc).
For fleshy races, Lesser Restoration will suffice to remove stat damage / exhausted status (drink two), and for negative levels see the next point:

Death Ward can be obtained via a BtA Tangleroot clicky, and the Silver Flame Talisman will grant you Deathblock plus 10/day of an effect that simulates the negative energy absorption effect of Death Ward (and works in antimagic so it will provide limited protection against beholder enervations).

Neutralize Poison - proof against poison items / potions / clickies are in abundance.

Freedom of Movement - definitely nice to have, I won't lie. You can't buy scrolls of this from NPCs either.
If you have enough patience and/or luck you can get the Kundarak Delving Boots from the Vault of Night raid which have permanent Freedom of Movement.
Spiked Boots from Prison of the Planes (Gianthold) provide immunity to slippery surfaces (Grease, Ice Sheets from flensers, etc).

Divine Power - not necessary on a pure-class character with BAB 20, which a barbarian is.

Recitation - nice to have, but you'll live without it in most cases. If you really need the to-hit/saves at certain levels, you can quaff Heroism potions, or work toward getting a Planar Gird (or Purple Dragon necklace).



Now before anyone goes off at me for listing a bunch of rare/expensive items, I prefer to build for the long term, and it's possible to get all these items on a single character, many of which are non-binding.
I just prefer not to build a character around certain abilities which will eventually become obsolete, but with the possibility to Lesser/Greater Reincarnate, this is not as character-ending a problem as before.

[shurakaibob]

Thanks you very much for listing all these items which i hadnt known so far! And i totally see your point in showing them.

But i had with this idea a character in mind, which should be good playable from 1-20 (if he even goes this far... at least till next idea comes as i know myself;-) and which doesnt rely on (expensive, for me most items at AH are expensive ;-) items and or help from others. In party or with enough patience/grinding (or gold) the situation is all different really.

One point to divine power: increase in bab is 2 (ok not that great) but its another possibility to increase str +6 (ok ok, with bulls strength or item thats also not a big increase).

Alltogether i see the buffs only as on top things for special situations and not like running around full buffed all the time.

[Impaqt]

I dont think you can get a very high AC with them so there are 2 possibilities left to make them more durable (and especially for me more solo friendly):
- trying not to get hit (with blur, displacement and such from dragonmarks, umd, spells etc) or
- having enough hps and heal myself after a tough fight.

That last combined with the idea to have some nice buffs which i can cast myself and human impr.recovery lets me think perhaps this is a not too bad try.

You completey missed the third and most viable option for barbarians.

Do enough Damage and play smart enough that people dont mind tossing you heals.

L7 Cleric heals in end game content are useless. If you intend to solo onthis character... almost exclusively.... then I'm sure you will do OK. But if the goal is to raid, you will be dissapointed.

[shurakaibob]

I dont think that this build will do that low damage. And dont know whats so bad at being a bit self sufficient even in groups. I dont have experience in larger groups and raids, but from my personal point of view i would not have something against a character in my group that is not that dependable that others save his butt all the time.

But lol, yes i am also not a that good player yet (only play for some weeks but not that much time for the game as i want) and i really like unusual builds and the discussion over them. So thanks again for all your critics.

[TheDjinnFor]

Your build will be an okay soloist, although there are several better solo builds that you can look at. Contrary to what you might think at first, DDO isn't the kind of game where you can take a healing class and a fighting class, mix them together and get a class that can do both.

You will never find a group with that kind of build, however; if you do you'll quickly find that your build is worse than having a pure Barbarian or pure cleric.

If you're set on this build, a few tips:

-You raised intelligence through level ups. Don't. The better strategy would be to drop Str by 1, giving you three points to put somewhere else (one in intelligence), then putting all your level ups into strength. Think about that for a moment; you end up with 2 extra build points like that. As a general rule, if you have an ability score of 16 or higher, don't put any level ups in any ability score less than 16, and if you have an ability score of 14 or higher, do not put any level ups in any ability score less than 14. Better yet would be to bank on a +1 tome.
-Better STILL yet would be to completely ditch improved trip; take stunning blow instead. You should have no problem tripping things with a high strength barbarian. You're forcing yourself to take a useless feat to get a moderately useful feat on an already feat-starved class.
-You're getting your biggest DPS increase from GTHF, since it gives you glancing blows while moving and on your third hits. This will give you great damage while working any twitch. You missing that is not a good sign.
-Don't put ability points in wisdom. Yes, clerics need wisdom to cast spells, and they get extra spellpoints for having a high wisdom, and they get better DCs; be that as it may, you only need a score of 14 to cast all the spells you'll ever have, and you can always just equip a +6 item. If you're planning on casting lots of spells, build a melee cleric; if you want high DCs so that you can cast spells on enemies, you'll never get it anyways so don't bother.
-Your skills could use some work. You need to max balance; you will get knocked down often in fights and you need balance to recover. The Heal skill will not do ANYthing for you, just ditch it. You can ditch search as well; you're not a trapmonkey, and you can just use a "detect secret doors" clicky if you need it. If you drop int to 8 like you should, you're looking at 3 skills, which could be balance, jump/intimidate/whatever, and concentration.
-Many of your enhancement choices are questionable, and some downright terrible. You're missing some good barbarian enhancements as well, being too low a level.

If you're still wishy washy:

-The best healing spell you'll have is cure critical wounds, which heals for about 25 damage on average for you, plus enhancements and potency. This is garbage.
-Your DPS will be vastly inferior to most melee toons, since you're lacking FBIII and GTHF which are arguably a barbarians greatest DPS increases. You'll have a lower BAB (and thus a lower attack speed) and you'll be without
-In a nutshell your build can't fight or heal. You will have more luck going pure barb with a hireling healer (yes, with it dying every 10 steps) then you will with this build.

The biggest mistake was multiclassing barbarians; barbarians really don't multiclass well at all. Trying a fighter build (and looking up some 'battlecleric' or 'battlesoul' builds) would be a better bet, since where barbarians get many class benefits like more rages and more powerful rages and better rage enhancements, fighters just get more feats, and there's a point in a fighters life where you've got too many feats and you can afford to multiclass.

[shurakaibob]

Hey TheDjinnFor

thank you very much for all the effort you took to help me improve my idea and pointing on the flaws of it. Was a great help for my better understanding!

Some points i cant follow for 100%, like too low bab, or that this build cant really fight (even if i of course admit as i allready said in the first post that it will never be the best in one specific point) but i see your good arguments and perhaps more flexibility with all those in my opinion usefell spells (even besides healing) doenst mean anything if you have every clickie (i even hate that word^^) or other item available.
If the biggest lost DPS comes really from GTHF this shouldnt be that hard to implement if dropping combat expertise and impr.trip (and reajust attributes)

But the tips you gave for making the build better are all great and i really made some mistakes in attributes, skills, feats (and all other ;-)

Will definatly take a closer look to chose fighter over barbarian for such a build.

Thanks again all!