Successfully Implimenting a PvP system

[Hendrik]

PvP might be a part of the new guild housing system they have planned.

HIGHLY doubtful.


Make people/Guilds PvP to earn a Guild House?

Not going to happen.

[flynnjsw]

HIGHLY doubtful.


Make people/Guilds PvP to earn a Guild House?

Not going to happen.

I certainly hope not, PVP becoming a neccesity in this game for anything would be about the only reason I can see that would make me drop my sub.

As far as the topic itself, I am not a fan of PvP. It was what turned me off to MMO's back when my little brother tried to introduse me to UO back in the day. Now as far as PvP in DDO goes, as long as it always remains seperate from everything else, and has no lasting effects on characters or PvE, then meh...

[Visty]

Its still the basic arguments repeated here.

Fidelity - Fidelity for PVE can be kept intact and balance made just to PVP zones.

Afterthought systems - While planning and forethought is always valued, its not impossible to make things after the fact, and its not out of the question that those things can be enjoyable.

PVP balance effecting PVE - The PVP zones have already recieved changes that do not effect PVE, not sure why people think its impossible for one to be different than the other.

Group imbalance in the current system - Yes, the current system needs balance, classes sighted like the sorc needs a go to class that is its nemesis. So that a full party of sorcs would have a viable counter.

People who PVP are Smacktards, immature, Leet B-net kiddies, Wow Weetards who will corrupt the game - IMO they are already here, have always been, and are easily handled with somewhat good moderation that seems to already be in place. Also, there is the lil fact that not all PVPers are these stereo types.

At the end of the day, its all about preference, if you don't think you would enjoy PVP and don't think the Devs should spend time on it, that's perfectly fine IMO. Maybe there isn't enough support here for it, maybe the Devs just don't care about it, again all of this is fine.

But, none of that changes that it can be done, and that it would/does add to the game play options in this game, and it doesn't have to effect your current preferred game play.

creating an entire new ruleset just for pvp is NOT a good move, even if you think it is

[gavagai]

Its still the basic arguments repeated here.

Fidelity - Fidelity for PVE can be kept intact and balance made just to PVP zones.

Afterthought systems - While planning and forethought is always valued, its not impossible to make things after the fact, and its not out of the question that those things can be enjoyable.

PVP balance effecting PVE - The PVP zones have already recieved changes that do not effect PVE, not sure why people think its impossible for one to be different than the other.

Group imbalance in the current system - Yes, the current system needs balance, classes sighted like the sorc needs a go to class that is its nemesis. So that a full party of sorcs would have a viable counter.

People who PVP are Smacktards, immature, Leet B-net kiddies, Wow Weetards who will corrupt the game - IMO they are already here, have always been, and are easily handled with somewhat good moderation that seems to already be in place. Also, there is the lil fact that not all PVPers are these stereo types.

At the end of the day, its all about preference, if you don't think you would enjoy PVP and don't think the Devs should spend time on it, that's perfectly fine IMO. Maybe there isn't enough support here for it, maybe the Devs just don't care about it, again all of this is fine.

But, none of that changes that it can be done, and that it would/does add to the game play options in this game, and it doesn't have to effect your current preferred game play.

I agree people should avoid stereotyping PvP players and immature kids. PvP rouses more emotions than PvE, and yet there are still relatively few total whiners from the PvP world, which I think speaks lots to the PvP community here in DDO.

That said, the barriers are IMO pretty fundamental. Even if we had different rulesets for PvP and PvE, they would have to be so substantially different from one another that it would literally make each character play like two characters. Low AC melees like the Barbs, the Kensais, the KotCs and the Rogues are great in PvE but would be extremely underpowered in PvP, while high saves/high AC characters would be favored in PvP even though their DPS couldn't cut down an Orthon.

Most of my experience has been with Shadowbane (which was phenomenal for its balance, despite the complexity of class and character builds), so most of my points will come from there. Also keep in mind many of these issues aren't just problems for PvP, but for endgame content in general.

Problem in short: Most good characters for PvE won't be particularly good for PvP. DDO's PvP cannot accommodate all the different kinds of build and classes. With arbitrary game mechanics creating winners and losers, IMO PvP won't be popular but to a minority that actually roll those PvP builds and gear them out.

To-hit and the D20: Players can achieve much higher ACs than they can achieve to-hit scores, and due to the nature of the D20 high AC would be king. Games like Shadowbane had defense-cuts going up to 50% DEF cut, allowing a Warrior to cut an Aracroix scouts DEF from 2500 to 1250. Sunder, Imp. Sunder, and Destruction would not be enough to allow the Frenzied Berzerker to hit the Stalwart Defender with a standing AC of 77 except with glancing blows. While the Stalwart Defender could go through the Barb's measly 800 hps with ease. Without true challenge and strategy, melee PvP would be dull (as IMO it is now).

HP to DPS ratio: Most high level characters output vastly more damage than they can sustain. A high end barb tank in DDO sits on 800-1000 hps, which can be decimated in less then 3 seconds by a secondary DPS class. One empowered/maximized spell from a sorc is usually enough to wipe most players. In SB, a fully equipped Mino Polarm Fighter would do about as much damage as a FBIII -- but would have 10 times the HPs. As would the priests and mages. Without more HPs/less DPS, combat will remain a chaotic, instantaneous, and unskilled gankfest, and most PvP gear would skimp on damage numbers (we do enough) and focus on HP/AC/saves gear. None of this makes PvP.

Immunities and Fort: In part because of our low HP/DPS ratio, we have High Fort to keep us alive. Now many classes (Kensais and Rogues in particular) derive most of their benefit from crits and sneak attacks, which sucks for them. But if you eliminate the Fort, go up to previous section: DPS would go up exponentially, meaning more players dead.

Spells, SP, and AoE Effects: Its no secret that Spells and Arcane Archers dominate PvP. In PvE, the cost of a caster's power is cripplingly finite SP resources; and unlike in SB and other games, those resources don't magically come back without extremely expensive pots. But in PvP a caster can dump SP, making the Wizard's powerful but rarely used toys simply overbearing. If we reduce the power of the spells for burst PvP, we completely screw the casters for long-term PvP.

When you look at those issues all together, one thing comes together: PvP in DDO is fundamentally whimsical and scewed by game mechanics. Due to mechanics, many top PvE toons will be gimp at PvP, and vice versa. Which dissuades players from PvP toons, since you need good PvE to get gear and abilities. Giving groups awards and bonuses for PvP successes might be fun for those who insist on it, but IMO it will never make a PvP system that is as tactical, exciting, and challenging as i.e. the Banes that I'd regularly join on Shadowbane.

[prowessss]

uhm I dont really know where to begin... I will again remind you all that this thread is not meant to be a debate on whether or not pvp should be a part of the game.

I have dropped my previous comments about spell changes due to heroic surge. Heroic surge is just what the doctor ordered. case closed on that issue unless we find in the future that heroic surge needs some tweeks.

White dots and carebears are terms from Asheron's Call... see, there was a radar system... and pvp-active characters would appear as a red dot... white dots are non-pvp characters. carebears are those who stand in town and emote to each other *drudge dance*

racist? lol...

regardless there's some great ideas being exchanged on this thread... Let's keep it that way and not reduce this thread to frivoless arguments.

[Lorz]

I wanted to pipe in as well and add...WE DO NOT WANT PVP here.

If you havent noticed OP....the majority of players do not want PVP.

You can either play DDO or you can play some PVP game.

That is all.

[prowessss]

I just want to say sorry if any of you felt insulted by me... I felt insulted... if you read the first couple pages you'll realize that I started off with very friendly intentions of just gathering pvp ideas... I was then told that I have no idea what i'm talking about, have poor understanding of game mechanics.. basically that i'm a noob. I felt insulted... I'm the OP, I don't have the luxory of thinking "oh he's talking about someone else" like you all have when i throw carebear around...

Ok BRASS TAX TIME

meat and potatos right here
The purpose of fortification is to negate criticals and sneak attack... this is frustrating for any rogues or kensais as they have absolutely no way to bypass this. What if improved sunder was given a d20+character level% reduction to fort? say I'm a level 20 kensai and I hit you with it and roll a 20... this means for the next couple seconds if I roll a 20 and confirm the critical, I have a 40% chance of it actually being a critical! and rogues are the same way... a level 20 rogue, rolling a 20 on their improved sunder, would have to get behind their target and not have its aggro to have a 40% chance to actually have a sneak attack on them. this doesn't seem like it would diminish the value of fortification... it would just give value back to sneak attack and criticals.

this seems fair to me as improved sunder costs a feat, has a save against, and under it's most extreme effectiveness still wouldn't negate fortification...

[prowessss]

I wanted to pipe in as well and add...WE DO NOT WANT PVP here.

If you havent noticed OP....the majority of players do not want PVP.

You can either play DDO or you can play some PVP game.

That is all.

I can understand this post if the thread title was "WHO WANTS PVP IN THIS GAME?" but it isn't. It's called "Successfully Implimenting a PvP System."

the purpose of the thread is to gather neat pvp ideas and figure out exactly what it would take for the pvp system to be successful.

[KKDragonLord]

I can understand this post if the thread title was "WHO WANTS PVP IN THIS GAME?" but it isn't. It's called "Successfully Implimenting a PvP System."

the purpose of the thread is to gather neat pvp ideas and figure out exactly what it would take for the pvp system to be successful.

You could ask Tolero to change the title to "Neat PvP Ideas" for you.

[Fomori]

Even in Wargames Joshua eventually said the magical words...

"The only way to win is not to play."

OP should listen to the WOPR.

[Visty]

I can understand this post if the thread title was "WHO WANTS PVP IN THIS GAME?" but it isn't. It's called "Successfully Implimenting a PvP System."

the purpose of the thread is to gather neat pvp ideas and figure out exactly what it would take for the pvp system to be successful.

if you start such a thread you have to start with a useful suggestion already. thats why its called the suggestion forum

to make pvp successfull you have to balance it
balancing pvp needs a totally differant ruleset from pve
si its creating a new game

not needed

[gavagai]

The purpose of fortification is to negate criticals and sneak attack... this is frustrating for any rogues or kensais as they have absolutely no way to bypass this. What if improved sunder was given a d20+character level% reduction to fort? say I'm a level 20 kensai and I hit you with it and roll a 20... this means for the next couple seconds if I roll a 20 and confirm the critical, I have a 40% chance of it actually being a critical! and rogues are the same way... a level 20 rogue, rolling a 20 on their improved sunder, would have to get behind their target and not have its aggro to have a 40% chance to actually have a sneak attack on them. this doesn't seem like it would diminish the value of fortification... it would just give value back to sneak attack and criticals.

this seems fair to me as improved sunder costs a feat, has a save against, and under it's most extreme effectiveness still wouldn't negate fortification...

I don't think adding a little -fort% to sunder going to do much without a bigger overhaul.

The current game and EQ is designed around folks with small HP pools and fort doing massive damage. Removing fort is going to take melees from around 300 DPS (per second) to around 500-600DPS. The Barb with 800 HPs and -20 AC is down in a 1.2 seconds. No vorpal necessary. No tactics. And no cleric can heal that quick.

Even if rogues could sneak attack, they have fewer HPs than most battleclerics can dish out in 1.2 seconds without landing a stun.

And Sunder itself would need to be more powerful, like the DEF cuts in Shabowbane. %-based. Most 20th levelers run with around a +35-40 to-hit; most ACs for high AC characters start at 65. That's literally off the d20, even with a -4 Sunder (which needs to hit and fail a save before it takes affect).

With so few HPs and such high DPS, I can't imagine making a serious group- or individual- oriented PvP system that is accessible and fun.

[Sutekx]

uhm I dont really know where to begin... I will again remind you all that this thread is not meant to be a debate on whether or not pvp should be a part of the game.

I have dropped my previous comments about spell changes due to heroic surge. Heroic surge is just what the doctor ordered. case closed on that issue unless we find in the future that heroic surge needs some tweeks.

White dots and carebears are terms from Asheron's Call... see, there was a radar system... and pvp-active characters would appear as a red dot... white dots are non-pvp characters. carebears are those who stand in town and emote to each other *drudge dance*

racist? lol...

regardless there's some great ideas being exchanged on this thread... Let's keep it that way and not reduce this thread to frivoless arguments.

Heroic Surge helped and nerfed some things, for those who don't have the gear to take spells from a beholder, I was once in the position way before surge and before gears, where a beholder flesh to stoned me, since I was the only caster that had stone to flesh spell, I was hosed and waited over 15 minutes for the save to take effect, I chalked it up to bad stating on con for my part at the time, which was fixed. Or worse, feeblemind which stuck to you like glue unless you were hit by a heal spell or restoration potion. But again, these were also fixed by gear before heroic surge. It is things that hit you up in the game to make you re-evaluate how you play the game and to better your character, much is the same, except now there might be less stress for those who aren't already laid back.

The racist comment I figured you would see the humor in it in order to lighten up the thread, since some were hostile to comments being made.

To me, PVP is a second thought, or something to do when I am bored, or just to see how long a toon can live, without having to pay repair bills from trying a quest to experiment with setups. But most of the time it is focused on favor farming and crafting, and crafting is a major part to me for end game with the exceptions of turn in item quests (scales, relics, taps, etc.)

Now to the topic of PVP ideas of the thread for contributing:

Things that were touched and discussed upon so far which does seem interesting. Changing the tavern brawling areas to be for certain levels. Like Wayward Lobster being for levels 1-5, etc. Which would be good since you are not stepping into a brawling area (for those who don't select people who are out there in the area to check other toons levels before stepping in) and getting nailed once you come in. And more maps for group PVP, and if it is possible by devs, to make a defend/assault style map for PVP group. While these are ideas that doesn't seem to alter the PVE and PVP mechanics at this point, but by applying options that are already a part of the game, seems more reasonable. But more of an after thought to other things that would be coming our way for PVE quests, and other content.

The PVP aspect of the game is an after thought but there is a small niche group that wants PVP. So there is the fact that you would setup PVP guilds, much like permadeath guilds, and setup rules of engagement for PVP that would be agreed upon among the PVP guilds. While the majority does not want PVP, there are ways to setup PVP that has been discussed. Much like permadeath, or role playing guilds, while they are not implemented in the game, they are implemented by the creativity of groups that come together to make it possible in a fashion that is enjoyable.

As for PVP it's been around since multi-noded BBSes before the internet was commericalized. Dialing up to a friend's LAN line on a 9600 baud modem playing DOOM - This in regards to the comment that was made "Then let them go back and play WOW, I for one would rather not have the crowd from WOW here if all they care about is instant gratification <-- a complex that not only exists in 12 year olds but now also exists in a much older less mature crowd who actually believe credit is money, when all it actually is, is debt!!! - Not all PVP enthusiast are coming from WoW or a much older "less mature" crowd, so that is a misconception, or sterotyping an entire group of people due to some bad apples in the bunch. No need to hike a leg on the game because someone is joining DDO from other MMOs, because in turn, Turbine is also making money off of these individuals for buying packs, etc. It is up to Turbine on the content that will be provided and others will either play the game or not, it is their choice.

It is interesting to see new players in the game that have come from other MMOs, some you can tell just by the names they use, and if they ask how the PVP is in this game compared to where they came from, just explain it, without being rude, that it is limited and tell them the options. Also try to intergrate them to the game from what they know, so they can have a better understanding of the game on how they relate things to previous experiences.

[Sutekx]

Even in Wargames Joshua eventually said the magical words...

"The only way to win is not to play."

OP should listen to the WOPR.

Unforunately Joshua couldn't play tic tac toe for jack. Becuase he who goes first in tic tac toe, knowing how, will always win. But this is also coming from a computer who liked to play the game "Global Thermonulcear War" and couldn't tell reality from a game.

[Sutekx]

State of the Game 2010
New Features
In addition to new content and items we are also working on some exciting new features for DDO. The team is currently busy working on some great additions to the guild system that will let guild members work together to earn valuable rewards and rival guilds compete for status on each server. One of the biggest rewards players will work towards is access to an all new guild housing system, which we are implementing in a cool and unique way. Suffice it to say, we think you will really want to be part of a guild that has earned access to this feature! I can’t say much more about it now, but look for more details in the coming weeks.

Food for thought.

[Visty]

State of the Game 2010
New Features
In addition to new content and items we are also working on some exciting new features for DDO. The team is currently busy working on some great additions to the guild system that will let guild members work together to earn valuable rewards and rival guilds compete for status on each server. One of the biggest rewards players will work towards is access to an all new guild housing system, which we are implementing in a cool and unique way. Suffice it to say, we think you will really want to be part of a guild that has earned access to this feature! I can’t say much more about it now, but look for more details in the coming weeks.

Food for thought.

just another ******** move saying: be a in a good guild or be screwed over the new feature. oh wait, you can still buy it in the store even if you suck

[Hendrik]

I certainly hope not, PVP becoming a neccesity in this game for anything would be about the only reason I can see that would make me drop my sub.

As far as the topic itself, I am not a fan of PvP. It was what turned me off to MMO's back when my little brother tried to introduse me to UO back in the day. Now as far as PvP in DDO goes, as long as it always remains seperate from everything else, and has no lasting effects on characters or PvE, then meh...

You and every other Vet/Founder.

It would be my first and last proclamation of 'Doom!" as I hit cancel.

Turbine is WAY smarter then that. They know how we feel about PvP. I would dare say prolly will do with 'credits' from Quests and Raids.

[KKDragonLord]

State of the Game 2010

New Features
The guild system that will let guild members work together to earn valuable rewards and rival guilds compete for status on each server. One of the biggest rewards players will work towards is access to an all new guild housing system, which we are implementing in a cool and unique way.

Food for thought.

Re-reading it now i think PvP might be related to the "compete for status" thing (if et all) and completely unrelated to the whole "Guild Rewards & houses" thing.

But tbh, its probably more likely that this status thing relates to
A) percentage of quests completed by guild members or a similar success rating system,
B) a system which measures how helpful certain guilds are to new players, much like a Rep system but with strict limitations to prevent exploits.
or most likely C) none of the above.

[prowessss]

lol i love this community...


Guys if this guild house thing forces guilds into a pvp that would encourage a tightening of the community and wouldn't screw anyone out of anything.

The pvp system i imagine would only be able to happen if team size gets opened up... so a ridiculous amount of players can be on each team... that way you really wouldnt need to fight if you dont want to because you could easily just join a guild and your presence would be enough and if you die you'd just be at a different spot hoping your team wins while you go quest somewhere... and come on how can you be screwed out of not having a guild house? last time i checked no one has a guild house.

[broolthebeast]

you guys are really kinda looking to far into that. I seriouisly doubt they would use pvp as a basis for earning/upgrading guild housing.

For the new people that were not around when the Sub was released, this is what they did. Each raid had an token attached to it and every time you completed that raid everyone in the party got a token from the chest. You then turned those tokens in from the raid to the guy in the market.

This was a server wide unlock, that involved everyone turning in the raid tokens before the subteranne unlocked. The big barrier dropped right before the entire servers eye's when the last person turned in the last token needed to unlock the raid. Ie: on khyber Kirvan(blazer) was the last token turn in to unlock the sub.

Again, the people who have been around for a long time have stressed soooo much how they hate pvp and it doesnt belong here so I seriously SERIOUSLY doubt they would all of a sudden release a feature that REQUIRED pvp to unlock it or upgrade it.

Personally, I always thought pvp could be made better here, but I didnt want to sit here and slam my head into a wall because other people didnt have the same thoughts about it as me... And well with the reputation system in place all you have to do is mention pvp and get neg repped beyond belief. Then again welcome to the ddo community where if your opinion isnt shared by the large population you get belittled, made fun of and neg rep'ed.