Successfully Implimenting a PvP system

[Angelus_dead]

i hated wow. it's repackaged EQ. and shields do negate "most weapon effects." i've seen a lot of action in the pit between two green steel holding people... if one holds down block the other doesn't hit with his weapon effects... in fact i just got done getting hit with a greensteel... with my shield up i survived until my stoneskin dropped. if these weapon effects were as effective as you say... that shouldn't be.

They're not talking about weapon effects! Greensteel isn't only weapons, ya know.

[Xaearth]

well then you should have already canceled because last update contained spell changes for the purposes of balancing pvp...

The changes i'm purposing would affect pve as much as flesh to stone and blindness now having a timer does.

Those changes had nothing to do with pvp, they were made as part of the completely idiotic heroic surge update and as of yet have not been fixed.

[Sutekx]

even if you would leave those in ANd remove the saveless spells, then still casters would whipe your sorry melee ass.
if you come to close to a wizard you eat 3d4 neg lvls and a fod, if you come to close to a cleric you eat lots of unavoidable damage and 2d4 neg lvls and if you come even closer you die in purple lightning

you cant balance ddo for pvp unless creating a whole new game

Why waste the time, just enervation or energy drain, then flesh to stone and walk away.

But I do agree, that DDO embraces variety and creation via characters and crafted items, that you really cannot balance it for PVP where it would be deemed fair by most (even then I can hear the ghostly future cries of "cheater and "hacker" be brought into the game while GMs pop over 1200mgs or more of Excedrin Migraine just from the reports alone coming in from disgruntled pvp players). I would have probably looked at a post saying that they need to add "more maps" for PVP challenges to the game for variety of a playing field(s), but going out into left field stating there should be a pvp guild reward and this spell x, y, and z needs to be out of PVP, no dice. We would probably see Tiefling as a PC race and the ability to select Chaotic Evil as an alignment before a massive overhaul to the game coding to go for the PVP idea he has right now.

[Sutekx]

They're not talking about weapon effects! Greensteel isn't only weapons, ya know.

Greensteel goggles that earth grab or slay living.... it can't be!

[Visty]

Why waste the time, just enervation or energy drain, then flesh to stone and walk away.

cause that can get you banned maybe?

and asp: yes, there are ways to avoid negative lvls but i bet ppl like prowessss dont have them and so eat the negs

[Lorien_the_First_One]

The system i propose will not subtract any significance from the PvE content. ...

Any PvP reward of value would mean that there would be cries to "balance" characters for PvP so it would end up harming the PvE game.

[prowessss]

no as a sorc i don't have death ward lol but i do spam enervation as often as i can :-P but really what i'm proposing is not a major overhaul... under 5 very minor changes to the functionality of a small number of spells... they just did an update, i guess it was the one before last, that changed the functionality of a few spells... IE, flesh to stone now has a timer and more rapid saves against, hypno doesn't last for nothin and has very rapid saves, and resistable dance has very rapid saves and doesn't last for junk.
You guys are all like confusing things your paranoia is saying i said with things i actually said.
::::Changes I do want::::
Power Words should have like a timer or something? say one power word per 2 minutes oughta be fine. as most power words are "I win" buttons
Otto's Irresistable Dance ought to have a longer cast time and either a unique animation or a sound of warning letting players know that his "I win" button is coming and to move out of melee range?

That's it. no more changes than those... if that's radical well just call me Che :-P

I do know about green steel items... This is not what the discussion is about. Of course it's really difficult to balance players when we've all got unique builds and unique items customized to our playstyles but that's not what this game is about. if they try to balance the game they'll ruin it! and maybe that's what you all have been thinking i was saying that we need to alter the game is some major ways to balance it for pvp... NO I want the game to stay mostly as it is except for a few minor adjustments in the functionality and practicality of a small number of spells. You all didn't give turbine negative rep when they altered spells for PvP balance just recently!!

[Visty]

::::Changes I do want::::
Power Words should have like a timer or something? say one power word per 2 minutes oughta be fine. as most power words are "I win" buttons
Otto's Irresistable Dance ought to have a longer cast time and either a unique animation or a sound of warning letting players know that his "I win" button is coming and to move out of melee range?

power words are **** with the current hp limit. if they are win buttons against you, then your char is the problem, not the spell system

and ottos irresistable dance will already get a nerf with heroic surge

[prowessss]

power words are **** with the current hp limit. if they are win buttons against you, then your char is the problem, not the spell system

and ottos irresistable dance will already get a nerf with heroic surge

hmmm... power word stun is the one i'm really concerned with and if you've got the hp to negate that you probably wouldn't worry about being stunned anyway... I'm only a level 16 sorc currently... 194 hp is not enough for power word kill to not kill but i don't mind it so much as power word stun... i dont really mind any spells really as i can accept the rules no matter what... i just feel as though a true pvp system wouldn't be possible with such spells... either that or WF would dominate until you bring a rogue mechanic in the scene... and that's silly.

[Borror0]

It makes no sense to focus on PvP in DDO:

1. The D&D ruleset makes balancing incredibly more difficult than in other MMOs.
2. A large part of DDO's revenues come from selling adventure packs.
3. The current playerbase is simply not interested in PvP as the game has been existing for too long.
4. The combat is too fast-paced for PvP to be generally enjoyable.

Simply put, DDO is not a game well-suited to be a PvP game. A PvP would have to be designed very differently from the start. The resources that would be required to create a solid PvP experience could be better spent in other aspects of the game. While PvP might attract a greater playerbase (it's a might - not a would - because PvP games have statistically worse communities and that drives away players), it's possible for Turbine to spread itself too thin.

Sometimes, it's better to be a game focusing on a very specific niche than to be a generic game with no unique selling points.

[gavagai]

but really what i'm proposing is not a major overhaul... under 5 very minor changes to the functionality of a small number of spells... they just did an update, i guess it was the one before last, that changed the functionality of a few spells... IE, flesh to stone now has a timer and more rapid saves against, hypno doesn't last for nothin and has very rapid saves, and resistable dance has very rapid saves and doesn't last for junk.
You guys are all like confusing things your paranoia is saying i said with things i actually said.

Suggestions for improving your request to improve PvP.

1. Cannot "fix" what is not broken; and pretending it is broken does not mean it is broken.
When someone asks to "fix" something that is a powerful ability so that it isn't a powerful ability, people get the impression you are whining about something that is personally inconvenient. If I were to write "fix Death Frenzy so it works like Power Surge" I would tick off Barbs. This was as true on the forums in Scoutbane as it is in DDO.

Just be clear and say, "Death Frenzy is the ultimate in Barb power, but it might need to be nerfed to create more balance for x, y, and z reasons." It helps if you've thought through the ramifications, too, since "fixing" a strong ability to become a weak ability will make that class more vulnerable in most of the content.


2. What happens 2% of the time in PvP happens 98% of the time in PvE
In the context of PvP, its awfully irritating not getting a save on Irresistable Dance. In the context of PvE, your party may avoid a wipe because that 16/2/2 warchanter with a CHA of 2 cast irresistable dance.

How do the majority of players that don't PvP benefit from this spell nerf? If you can address that well, you'd face less animosity. [Hint: none of the other posters to address the issue have answered that, beyond calling them carebears.]


3. Nerfing casters without a broader vision of what casters do isn't wise.
Shadowbane and most other MMOs follow a simple balancing mechanism: each class has abilities that make damage numbers appear over heads. Balance the numbers and you have class balance.

You've made more moderate tweaks about how certain CC spells should be discouraged, but haven't really provided a vision of what you expect casters to do with their limited SP. Unlike Shadowbane, in DDO caster power is not a function of bigger damage numbers; it is a function of more powerful spells that bypass HPs and even bypass saves.

So why play a caster if your most powerful abilities:
-- Cannot be recast quickly due to a 10 second cooldown.
-- Last less time due to more frequent saves.
-- Have new saves inserted into the spell, making that level 8 spell identical to a heightened level 2 spell.

And no, +5 to saves isn't bringing back the SP you have to waste to reapply the CC (which might not land, even with +5).


4. Use imagination
One thing you haven't mentioned is that even irresistable dances have a "save" -- Spell Resistance.

One way to "fix" the "I-win buttons" in PvP without screwing everything else over is to stress SR in more builds.

And the fact that most fighters have such bad SR? Perhaps there are things Turbine can do to improve that (*cough* Drow SR *cough*). But at the same time, it's their own fault for designing a build with such a glaring Achilles Heel, when there are items to absorb spells and such.

[Newtons_Apple]

hmmm... power word stun is the one i'm really concerned with and if you've got the hp to negate that you probably wouldn't worry about being stunned anyway... I'm only a level 16 sorc currently... 194 hp is not enough for power word kill to not kill but i don't mind it so much as power word stun... i dont really mind any spells really as i can accept the rules no matter what... i just feel as though a true pvp system wouldn't be possible with such spells... either that or WF would dominate until you bring a rogue mechanic in the scene... and that's silly.

Again, this spell can be worked around by equipping a spell absorption item. Combine that with a deathward clicky, firestorm greaves, ring of the djinn, cloak of ice and a shield or nightshield clicky and a melee can typically engage and kill a caster before the caster can think of something the melee is not immune to or has high resistance to.

So it seems there currently is a method for a melee to be balanced against a caster. Granted it takes grinding and/or a cost, but it can be done.

[Aashrym]

This is another 'not signed'.

Prowess, your 'I win' buttons are not 'I win' buttons. If you are playing a sorc you have the same opportunity to use the same spells. Are you winning with them? A person simply does not pw:stun or pw:kill a barbarian charging on up to trip/stun a player, which seems very effective btw. Each side has the same opportunities to use the same resources as is. This changes 'I win' to 'I win if I get lucky or manage the resource better or learn the best method of dealing with said resource.' Not broken for players who want to brawl as is.

As stated several times, the players posting would rather see development time on several other things more enjoyable than PVP. Stating that the existing posters are care-bears and the players who like PVP are not posting would suggest to me they enjoy it as is and that's why you see the brawling going on.

I'm kinda curious when exactly you played with a level cap of 5, btw. It's been a while but I remember the game releasing with 10 levels and Eckelberry saying no PVP. ;-)

[Sutekx]

hmmm... power word stun is the one i'm really concerned with and if you've got the hp to negate that you probably wouldn't worry about being stunned anyway... I'm only a level 16 sorc currently... 194 hp is not enough for power word kill to not kill but i don't mind it so much as power word stun... i dont really mind any spells really as i can accept the rules no matter what... i just feel as though a true pvp system wouldn't be possible with such spells... either that or WF would dominate until you bring a rogue mechanic in the scene... and that's silly.

So you are basically upset that each time you go into PVP areas you are getting hammered by the spells you rage about and you want them changed for it to make your PVP experience better? Seriously? Start researching items to assist you on that, what is your weakness can be turned into a strength if you know how to fix it, by items, feats, etc.

[KKDragonLord]

This

'Software is Hard.' It's not as easy to change/make stuff like this as getting an idea and snapping your fingers. What you're proposing would require massive amounts of time and money for development, and at the same time would distract from what the existing player base wants; namely more quests, races, classes, and PrCs. Why turn away most of your players just so you can possibly add a few more?

And This, +1 rep btw.

I'm sorry, but you're posting ideas that are not new, taking a position that is almost universaly disagreed with, on a mechanic that you are vastly overselling the popularity of, all the while thinking your post is different than the dozens that came before it.

What exactly were you expecting?

There IS a way to do PvP balanced, and that would be to make an entire set of rules for it, that sets it apart from the PvE game. Its not simple, its not easy, its not cheap, and if people still throw rocks at Turbine for not adding new content fast enough, even though they have been adding stuff every update faster than ever before, the amount of work Good PVP would only make it worse.

Frankly, i wouldnt mind some good competitive PVP: capture the flag, domination, castle siege, death match, team death match, time attack, last man standing, monster assault, and whatever else.

But to do Any of this, would take enough effort to almost make a Whole New Game, especially because of the whole mechanics tweaking, PVP Gear, Entirely new Areas, and an awful lot more stuff we can't even understand.

So please Drop it, or start a Donation Petition to pay Turbine 10million dolars to make a DDO PvP game, because if PvP is Not done Right, its a Problem, not a Solution.

[Visty]

Frankly, i wouldnt mind some good competitive PVP: capture the flag, death match, team death match,

those do exist

[Hendrik]

those do exist

And are a BLAST!!!!

Never laughed so hard getting my axe kicked....

[prowessss]

hmmm... where to begin... so many new posts...
Ok... I'm just going to restate everything i've said in a clear and concise manner... bare with me because while I've got a 34 charisma score, only have 10 int...


I don't want to see PvP made a priority and I don't want PvP affecting any of the current content negatively.

There are PvP modes like CTF and what not... but the problem is no one uses them. and if you try, you'll most likely end up in a game of four twenties and 2 level 1s vs a group of level 5s... What I want to see is some kind of way for this system to actually be utilized. whether it be just having the guy in the wayward lobster assign level ranges or it be a capture the keep kind of system i was talking about...

Spell adjustments..... The problem i wanted to address is not the relationship between classes but between those of the same class... a level 20 wizard vs a level 20 wizard... it doesn't matter what items either of them have, what spells they've got... It all boils down to who could target and cast power word stun first. pretty sure, having brawled quite a bit with my mantle on, crowd control spells go straight through spell absorb. And whether or not you've personally got spell resistance or you're a drow or whatever doesn't matter because your personal spell resistance doesn't stack with the spell resistance buff which is the only thing that can really prevent these spells effectively...

I know i didn't say everything i probably wanted to say but this is getting exhausting.

[TheDjinnFor]

Step 1

What this amounts to is encouraging developers to create and fix mechanics by accounting for special cases. You acknowledge, then, that the current PvE system is impossible to translate over to PvP, so you encourage developers to make exceptions and change the rules around. What happens when you take that philosophy to it's logical conclusion? You have a game full of inconsistency, limited by the special cases it needs.

The problem with such a game, among many things, is that it is limited by what the developers can design special cases around. You will have a game with 100 special rulesets that can only be played 100 ways. If, instead, developers were to create a consistent, logical system that works no matter what you want to use it for (or make it adaptable enough so that its core workings can easily be adjusted) then you allow your players freedom to play in a wider variety of ways. On the other hand, if your game is designed in such a way that you need to arrange special cases and rules for everything, then your players can only play the way you've arranged special cases for (either that or spend decades outlining all the special cases).

Step 2

You're taking what was fun in another game that targeted a different audience and had different mechanics and trying to translate it over to this game. DDO is a party-based instancing game. It is not a guild-war game or a castle-building game. It does the developers no good to explore such a system when not only is it alien to the very nature of the game as it was designed, but also does not appeal to the majority of the players. This game is not a guild-versus-guild game.

[prowessss]

the original purpose for this thread was not to debate whether or not PvP should be a focus for the developers... Of course it shouldn't be.

The purpose is to outline simple ways to successfully make PvP in this game a more fulfilling experience. then it turned into a bunch of people jumping on me for enjoying PvP and wanting to see more of it and me defending myself... Maybe we can return to the original purpose...

In my opinion, a few minor spell adjustments and a little rogue love would all that would be needed to achieve the balance necessary for pvp to be taken seriously. then all we'd need is some sort of motivation to get battles together.. I take it no one liked my idea of having a relic keep and having guilds battle for it... IMO +1 for the dominant guilds is pretty insignificant... yeah it would be pretty nice but ultimately insignificant.

love you all :-D