17 cleric 3 monk build questions

[modaize]

This is a build I'm playing with as a sort of battle cleric I guess. Dwarven cleric monk focus on staff melee and max spell damage. Was curious what your thoughts are on it, and if its a viable build for solo and groups. Its build off the basic 28 points, with no tomes or gear on the list. I don't know the high end gear well enough to know what I should be placing. Tomes are an option of course but wanted to see the basics first. Thanks for looking, let me know what you think.

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Level 20 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(3 Monk \ 17 Cleric) 
Hit Points: 307
Spell Points: 1134 
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 10
Will: 17

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             15                    18
Dexterity            10                    10
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence         10                    10
Wisdom               15                    18
Charisma             10                    12

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               2                     9
Bluff                 0                     1
Concentration         6                    24
Diplomacy             2                    11
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                0                     1
Heal                  2                     4
Hide                  0                     0
Intimidate            0                     1
Jump                  4                     6
Listen                2                     4
Move Silently         0                     0
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                0                     0
Search                1                     7
Spot                  4                    10
Swim                  2                     4
Tumble                2                     2
Use Magic Device      n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Dwarven Faith I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Lightning Reflexes
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortiose I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning I


Level 4 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I


Level 6 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I


Level 7 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Dwarven Faith II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning II


Level 8 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery II


Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III


Level 10 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III


Level 11 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics II


Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Enhancement: Racial Toughness IV


Level 13 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV


Level 14 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration II


Level 15 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III


Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma I


Level 17 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma II
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning III


Level 18 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning II


Level 19 (Cleric)


Level 20 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Dwarven Armored Agility I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration III

[Hjarki]

Quarterstaff is one of those 'flavor' choices that you really, really get punished for using by the mechanics. Even with your exact feat configuration (no TWF and some of the THF feats), it's very likely you'll deal more damage with Fists than with Staff. As you level up, you'll probably discover that the only reason you ever swing your weapon is build up Aligning the Heavens.

Some other notes:
1. Wis vs. Str stat raise. While it may seem right now that you're going to 'waste' that level 20 stat point on an odd Wisdom, throughout the course of your character's career you'll probably find that half the time it isn't 'wasted' at all. Whether it's a matter of gear allocation, saving some AP, etc., the additional +1 Strength probably isn't worth it.

2. Spell penetration. You've taken a 3 point hit on spell penetration by multi-classing and you're a divine (rather than arcane) caster. Since the primary offensive spell for divine casters is Blade Barrier (no SR roll), wasting feats/enhancements on spell penetration probably isn't all that worthwhile.

3. Armor mastery/agility. There's no good reason for you to wear armor, so these enhancements don't do anything for you.

4. Lightning Reflexes. Spending a feat on minor save bonuses isn't really worth it in most cases.

5. Improved Turning. You will never actually turn undead. Aside from the fact that it has a fairly low chance of success, the result (undead running away) isn't something your group will want. Turn undead attempts are almost exclusively used to fuel abilities such as Divine Vitality.

6. Tactics. Ultimately, your chance to pull off a combat feat will be non-existent anyway. Remember, a mob's ability to avoid being tripped is based on the fact that they have to fight 60+ Strength Barbarians, not 30 Strength Clerics.

As with many 'unconventional' builds, it's tough to see what you actually want. If your 'concept' is based around 3 Monk/17 Cleric, I'd recommend going high Dexterity/Wisdom on a Halfling so you can Weapon Finesse TWF fists and keep Aligning the Heavens going.

[modaize]

There is so much to learn, its daunting sometimes. I see a good halfling cleric monk build posted by Valiance. I'll give that a try. I just think the halflings run funny or creepy depending how you look at it.
Anyway thanks for the information on the build.

Couple questions for clarification so I don't make the same mistakes on other build attempts.

The lack of armor is that due to monk or cleric?
Swapping out the flavor for something more dwarven like the dwarven axe, would that make a difference in melee damage, or if you have monk in there, you're going to be using monk weapons in order to keep the monk bonuses?

[Ninetoes]

There is so much to learn, its daunting sometimes. I see a good halfling cleric monk build posted by Valiance. I'll give that a try. I just think the halflings run funny or creepy depending how you look at it.
Anyway thanks for the information on the build.

Couple questions for clarification so I don't make the same mistakes on other build attempts.

The lack of armor is that due to monk or cleric?
Swapping out the flavor for something more dwarven like the dwarven axe, would that make a difference in melee damage, or if you have monk in there, you're going to be using monk weapons in order to keep the monk bonuses?

I can attest to the awesomeness of Valiances Iron Cleric build. I'm playing one currently.

If you don't understand monks and armor, why are you splashing monk? Here's the skinny.

Monks get their Wisdom modifier to their armor class, as long as their not wearing armor or a shield (robes and monk outfits are ok). So, the armor enhancements you've got are worthless because you shouldn't be wearing armor. In a robe, at lvl 8, my Iron Cleric can hit 40 AC. At lvl 11, my human paladin has 23 in full plate.

A Cleric's main stat is wisdom, as a caster. This has perfect synergy with monk, as explained above.

For this reason, it's much better to make a dexterity based monk/cleric (Clonk) that uses weapon finesse and focuses on surviveability. A starting focus in Dex and Wis, and all level up points into Wis, will net you a very tough build. Don't bother with anything other than monk weapons unless there's a specific reason. Unnarmed, your damage will be much higher with just handwraps, due to the way monk unarmed attacks work Vs. holding weapons.

[Thrudh]

4. Lightning Reflexes. Spending a feat on minor save bonuses isn't really worth it in most cases.

I'd bump up your Dexterity AND keep Lightning Reflexes...

One of the main reasons to splash monk as a cleric is for evasion... But evasion only helps if you make your Reflex save... So you want that in the mid to high 20s at least 18th level...

No need to get Spell Pen at the lower levels... Quarterstaff cleric/monk is fine... No one expects you to do great DPS anyway, as long as you're a decent healer... It's okay to have a little flavor as a cleric... As long as you have Maximize and Extend, you can always fall back on Blade Barrier. I'd suggest Empower Healing as a feat... With enhancements and some items, it gives the best bang for your buck SP wise...

[modaize]

Excellent thanks guys. I think I have it worked out now. I decided to drop the staff and with the explanation of the monk armor (which is what I thought it was but wanted to be clear) and the idea with evasion I put a new build together. Thank you all for the help. Its greatly appreciated. I think Ive spent more time in the builder in the last 2 weeks than in game. Which now is remedied.

[connerj]

oh.my.god. i think you can pretty much disregard EVERYTHING Hjarki stated in 4, 5, 6
1.agreed. WIS over str for sure
2. ok, agree too. but except that comet that letsutake, 0% damage on a failed enemy save.'
3.yea
4. lightning reflexes-it builds up, evasion=good only with reflex save which +2 actually makes a difference.
5. RSII-you now destroy undead insteadof fearing them. op one of these on a groupof ghoulies andbam.
6. oh. my god. cleric str with pells and pots and gear will reach 40 giving more thanlike 12+. your (hopefully) 40 wis gves tunning fist, A MUST, highs DC's. and, sunder is better than trip at higher lvls. handwraps with no armor alll te way!!
CHA needs to be probably around 20 buffed.

[domandi]

WOW, that is some impressive theadomancy. Someone bury this deeeeeeeeeep.

[Crann]

Is this a record for a necro, nearly 3 years?

[domandi]

I would like to add that I was neg repped for my response. Kinda silly when someone (seemingly) honestly replies to a 3 year old thread.