Pls drop the heal yourself rhetoric.

[Mummi]

Interesting reading this thread seeing peoples views on cleric/fvs and healing. I atm play a healer/caster fvs and a more fighty fvs (slightly gimped heh) and a fighty bard with some healing, although i have played all the classes to a high level.

Anyway I kind of agree with OP when I play my healer fvs I don't mind healing ppl i have quite alot of sp's usually enuff for me to heal the group and chuck the odd bb/cometfall. If I look like I'm not gunna make the next shrine without using scrolls then hell i carry 300 odd I dont mind using them. I also carry wands to remove curse blindness and disease which i hardly ever have to replenish they are cheap compared to potions although usually by the time i have switched to them the person has already drunk a potion.

I guess if I end up using lots of scrolls all the time it would get to be expensive but i find it rarely happens and on the odd occasion it does then i don't mind. Usually if i've been in a group which has only just completed a quest for whatever reason people will mail me sp pots and scrolls which is nice.

The only gripe i've had sometimes is the barb who always using death frenzy all the time in certain quests where i think it becomes a real drain on sp. Then i usually true ress him a couple of times. Actually thats the only time i've found getting slightly annoyed, i think if i was gunna do that i'd give the healer some scrolls and say well i'm gunna need all of these cast on me :P

[Aashrym]

W-w-w-what!?

The Battle Cleric wasn't even healing HIMSELF!?

Umm... that's the entire reason you GO battle cleric. To be a melee that can heal yourself. Beat the enemy by outlasting them, letting the Healer Cleric worry about one less Melee, that sorta thing.

I've seen this in game. I was on with my bard and a cleric fumed over chat that I wasn't healing him has he died with a nearly full SP bar while I was healing the fighter and barbarian and leaving him to heal himself.

It's kinda sad when clerics expect bards to heal them and won't heal themselves. Not a common occurrence, but I have seen it.

[Angar]

Are you being intentionally obtuse? Or do you really think only linearly and attribute to others similar limitations?

This is the party where you are showing your wow colors? The core rules of this game are grounding in a system that allowed for and encouraged flavor. What do you think role playing is but flavor? If you limit your thinking to the melee caster healer,: all the time you are waiting for your lfm to fill, I will have spend productively in dungeons running with whatever comes along.

Actually, I played wow for less than a year, but have been playing MMOs since they were text based telnet driven games. WoW only comes up as a reference when talking about the most successful mmo ever, not when I am looking at what I find fun. Besides, WoW had far more diversity in the roles of priests than this game has in clerics.. the only difference is that all casters in wow were squishy, very squishy, where here some of them can wear heavy armor.. of course in DDO armor is irrelevant with any toon and the best AC builds usually consist of robes. So really, the main difference between the two games is that armor meant something in WoW, where here even a naked, unbuffed sorc can solo most quests in the game. Sure, a cleric can melee more effectively in this game than in WoW, but then again, as you said yourself, a wizard can melee as good as anything if built right and played by the right person, so what's the point? a wiz still can't be primary healer, and neither can any of the melee classes. That still leaves clerics and favored souls as the primary healers. You can build a toon to play any role you want, but they are at their most effective when played within the confines of their class intent.

Personally, I don't run in pugs unless my guild isn't available to play the level of toon I want to play that day. Even then, I don't start groups, or join ones that aren't close to ready to go. But unlike some here, if I am running my cleric, I automatically understand that if a group is looking for a cleric/fvs, they don't want a battle cleric, they want a healer, and choosing to join that group means that I will be expected to heal the party, not to melee or offensively cast. It doesn't offend me, and is in fact the reason I rolled a cleric to begin with.

Yes, I understand that you can do much more with a character than the common cookie cutter builds and group builds, but if you have been reading the recent news on DDO, you would understand that over 4/5 of the population is NOT made up of "ddo vets" who have outgrown the "typical" mmo design. If anyone here should understand that going outside the typical boudaries of a class requires a party that is intimate with the game mechanics and should probably be very familiar with the other players in the party, it should be you. You can't take a guy that has played the game for 6 weeks and has only one level 12 toon and throw him in a group with a bunch of multi-classed, self sufficient, zergers who don't have the time or patience to help the guy get through it. You certainly can't take a group of 4 or 5 of newish players and throw a non-healing cleric or fvs into the group and expect them to fend for themselves.

Until you run a high level (more than 17) clr and/or FvS you are not qualified to comment on what divines can offer for DPS in terms of offensive spell casting capabilities. You think you know but you don't. Try it, try expanding your horizons. You will be better qualified to assist new players and will most likely enjoy the game more.

I don't have to have run my cleric to 20 or played a FVS to understand the potential of the class. I ran my sorc from level 1 to 19 as a duo with an FVS on almost every quest in the game. To do a quest you have never done before at the top end of the level spread with 2 people and no melee, you have to be pretty darn familiar with the limitations and capabilities of those 2 classes. I don't doubt that a favored soul can replace an arcane caster in a group that has a bunch of vets with greensteel and a lot of haste clickies. I still wouldn't replace an arcane with an FVS in a pug.

Yes, I am here, trying to enlighten others from the darkness of self imposed limitations.

I say again: There is no class in this game that is limited to the pigeon hole you and people expecting 2-dimensional classes are limiting them to. I really don't know how to say it any simpler for you. I have watched a video of a wizard soloing Vod. I have seen a bbn intim work well with a respectable (not max but workable) ac. I have seen a melee sorc contribute better and more significantly than most fighters you will get. Rogues that tank. I have seen posts in the Achievements of Divine-less shroud runs--and no it was not an all WF party.

I have been in epic byoh groups, but once again, I would only do it with players I know, not with the other 99.99% of the population. Especially since over 80% of the population is now very new to the game. You are a fool if you think a newbs first toon should be some hybrid class or a diversion from the standard role of a class.

You still haven't answered how a fighter can be a primary healer, or a barbarian can take the place of a caster. Or how a wiz or sorc can be the primary healer. Some roles are pretty set in stone unless you heavily multi-class. While a cleric or FVS can be something other than a healer, they are still the only viable main healers in the game.

Oh, and I can maybe see a healer-less group in the shroud if it is made up of all players who can UMD heal scrolls, but I want to see a video of it happening now, when server lag is at an all time high and even having 2 healers overlapping spammed masses on the melees but going upwards of a full minute without a single spell landing. When the main tank is taking 200-300 damage every round he only stands up if he can get heals from someone.

As limited in vision as you may be, there are others who look at classes and what granted feats they receive and envision something more than the basic:

Clerics heal
Fighters/barbarians melee/tank
Casters buff and cc.

If it were left to the limits that people are trying to put on the cleric class this game would be a whole hellovalot less fun.

If the game were left to people capable of running all BYOH quests with multi-classed and off-the-beaten-path builds, the population would be back to where it was a year ago - very low and dwindling fast. The day I see all the LFMs stating BYOH and nobody looking for a dedicated healer is the day I will believe that everyone here is capable of your great visions. Until then, I say that when a group is looking for a healer, they want a healer, not some stuck up vet who insists that clerics shouldn't have to play the role of healer.

I have said it too many times already: get over yourselves. The core population of this game expects clerics to heal. If you want to play a non-healing cleric, I encourage it, but you better stick to your guild groups because if you hit the PUGs, you will be annoyed at the lack of "vision" in the majority population, and more threads like this one will come up.

As far as fun, well I imagine that once you have played the game with each of the basic classes: tank, caster, healer, and mastered all of it, the only thing left is to start mixing and matching and pushing yourself to try to see if you can break out of the basic 2-D vision of an mmo. I still have fun with my pure classes, knowing that my sorc can out cast any other class in the game. Knowing that my cleric can out-heal any other class in the game. Knowing that my fighter can melee better than any caster hybrid. I am sure some day I will grow bored of it and roll up a hybrid of some kind, and find some renewed interest in the game. Until then, I am plenty happy knowing that when I have to pug, a group with a melee, a caster, and a healer will be able to get the job done, as long as none of them think they are something else.

[Woody00]

The only gripe i've had sometimes is the barb who always using death frenzy all the time in certain quests where i think it becomes a real drain on sp. Then i usually true ress him a couple of times. Actually thats the only time i've found getting slightly annoyed, i think if i was gunna do that i'd give the healer some scrolls and say well i'm gunna need all of these cast on me :P

lol. I actually had that happen one time. I got into a party and the barb opens a trade window before the quest starts and drops a dozen raise scrolls in it and says " Here you're gonna need these."

[SaisMatters]

For one month, I'd like to get rid of Mana Bars and go to daily spell lists. Than there would be no doubt what a Clerics role would be. I'm pretty sure if your spell list wasn't comprised of 90 percent of healing and curing spells no one would want that cleric in their group. ( would be good to see casters neutered for a bit too lol )

[Chai]

Actually, I played wow for less than a year, but have been playing MMOs since they were text based telnet driven games. WoW only comes up as a reference when talking about the most successful mmo ever, not when I am looking at what I find fun. Besides, WoW had far more diversity in the roles of priests than this game has in clerics.. the only difference is that all casters in wow were squishy, very squishy, where here some of them can wear heavy armor.. of course in DDO armor is irrelevant with any toon and the best AC builds usually consist of robes. So really, the main difference between the two games is that armor meant something in WoW, where here even a naked, unbuffed sorc can solo most quests in the game. Sure, a cleric can melee more effectively in this game than in WoW, but then again, as you said yourself, a wizard can melee as good as anything if built right and played by the right person, so what's the point? a wiz still can't be primary healer, and neither can any of the melee classes. That still leaves clerics and favored souls as the primary healers. You can build a toon to play any role you want, but they are at their most effective when played within the confines of their class intent.

WOW has more diversity than DDO in the healing classes? /barf

I can build a melee favored soul that will have more sp at the end game than a full blown caster cleric, dump wis in favor of str, and swing an ax that crits into the high 100s low 200s, trips mobs, stuns mobs, and heals and buffs the party to boot. Can you do this in WOW? No - I played that game for 4 years, and while priests ruled in the WOW realm, they could not fight for squat. Regardless of which template you spec, you are a caster, in a dress.

Secondly there are no confines of class intent in DnD - thats the beauty of this game. 20 people can roll up 20 different fighters, and while the icon is the same in the group health panel, you can have 20 distinctly different fighters, with different abilities. Combine that with multiclassing and you get all kinds of unique options that a cookie cutter class game like WOW would not even begin to dream of having.

When I played PVP in WOW, I could tell EXACTLY what your capabilities were just by your class icon and the armor you are wearing. I could easily speculate on my chances of taking you out solo were simply based on 1 or 2 seconds of observation. I could also predict EXACTLY when that warlock or priest was going to pop that fear spell based on how many escape clickies they used and I could predict my winning or losing the battle based on if I had an escape clicky available for when that fear would be popped. etc. Its was and still is all cookie cutter compared to DDO and DnD in general.

Back on some semblance of topic, as for people with healing abilities not sharing - problem solved by putting "need healer" in LFM.

[Wyrmnax]

a wiz still can't be primary healer

Sorry. Just healed a group through Hard Sins of attrition on my wiz.

Dont *EVER* take anything from granted in DDO just because it is so in other games.

Fleshlings, bah.

[Magusrex777]

Let me throw my two cents into the fray. Both sides of this issue make very good points. Most of us pay to play in some form and even if we do not we get to play our class how we want. You want to play a Battle Cleric and not a healbot. That is your right anyone who tells you “You are Cleric you heal” can kiss off. However, you should also understand that most people expect Cleric/FS to heal and you should explain your atypical class role. You should also understand that a LFM that has FS/Cleric as the only classes listed are looking for a main healer type, joining them and not performing that role is you just trying to make a point. It is rude.

I also totally believe if you are a savvy enough player to build one these classes that is exceptional at a non healing role, and I know they can be, you are also savvy enough to understand the nuances of grouping with such a toon. You need to be open about what you do and you need to build yourself a little bit of a reputation by being good at your role. You know you will get declined for some groups by people who don’t know you or understand the capabilities of the class. Why get upset over this? You knew it would happen, deal with it and move on.

I am self sufficient, people should be self sufficient but there are times when having a dedicated healer is very nice way and there is nothing wrong with wanting that. There is something magical about DDO when the core classes play together in their traditional roles and excel at it. We don’t have to force our vision of a class on others and we do not have to ram our atypical class role down other people’s throats either. Both sides can coexist, it just takes a little understanding and polite communication, it really goes a long way.

[Phidius]

...Personally, I don't run in pugs unless my guild isn't available to play the level of toon I want to play that day...

I'd imagine this is pretty typical for people who champion the "Know your role"... it's much easier for a self-sufficient character to do well in a random pug than someone who "needs" X, Y, and Z class to handle the assigned "roles"

[Chai]

For one month, I'd like to get rid of Mana Bars and go to daily spell lists. Than there would be no doubt what a Clerics role would be. I'm pretty sure if your spell list wasn't comprised of 90 percent of healing and curing spells no one would want that cleric in their group. ( would be good to see casters neutered for a bit too lol )

Incorrect.

Clerics can swap out any spell in their list for a healing spell at any time. I usually fill my spell list in PnP with buffs and nukes, and if I want to cast a heal, I have to tell the DM which spell I want to swap for, then cast.

Casters are already neutered in DDO versus DnD in that their available spells to choose from consist of 1/8 the actual spell list a PnP wizard has. The game design itself is what lumps casters into speccing for direct damage, or crowd control by limiting the spell selection from true PnP.

[Arlith]

I'd imagine this is pretty typical for people who champion the "Know your role"... it's much easier for a self-sufficient character to do well in a random pug than someone who "needs" X, Y, and Z class to handle the assigned "roles"

It is also much easier for people to group with people they know than in pugs with egomaniacal healers who join a group looking for healing classes and then get upset and post in the forum when lo and behold they actually expected you to throw some healing spells.

Get over it. Everyone has different levels of play. I am better than some, worse than others. Some people can cruise through quests without a healer and some can't.

If you see an LFM for Cleric/FvS and the LFM says "need healer" then treat it like any other LFM with a tag. Respect it like you expect people to respect "Know your way", "BYOH", "Zerg", or "Be self-sufficient". If you want to run that quest and that's the only LFM up, then conform or run your own group.

[Angar]

Sorry. Just healed a group through Hard Sins of attrition on my wiz.

Dont *EVER* take anything from granted in DDO just because it is so in other games.

Fleshlings, bah.

Wow, did you do that with the currenty bugged no-fail heal scrolls or do you have a wiz with a 39 umd? How well did you hand out the cleric buffs? Death ward? FoM?
Was your group all or mostly WF?

I burned 175 heal scrolls on my wiz last night too. Still doesn't make me a primary healer. Of course, that was in guild groups, with players who knew what they were doing (level 15 toons in hard rainbow with no rogue, no healer, then monastary and enter the kobald). However, I was pretty gimp for a while when I got deleveled in monastary. Nobody could cast a greater resto, and no cleric or fvs to deathblock. Luckily we had a bard who could hand out freedom in rainbow.

Thing is, while we could accomplish some things, we were just getting by on certain quests with what we had, and having a dedicated healer that knew how to play would have made things go WAY smoother and faster. Not all quests would have been possible with that group. I guarantee a 20th level wiz couldn't primary heal an epic von6.

I have only run amrath quests maybe 2 or 3 dozen times, and only once with a dedicated healer. I wouldn't pug those quests without a healer, but I will run any day with guildies that KNOW how to play without a healer. Far different to consider your wiz a primary healer in a self-sufficient group, compared to a wiz in a pug trying to play the same role.

The whole point is, there is a small percentage of the population that can play this game outside the typical roles. You can talk about the extreme capabilities of good players and well equipped builds, but you can't expect to see it done successfully outside of a close knit group of people. However, if you follow the generic rules of a melee, caster, and healer in a group, there is no limit to what quests you can do, and who you can do them with. Doing things the hard way is fun and satisfying to some, and just because you like it that way doesn't mean that the rest of the game population does, or should even attempt it for that matter.

Since the whole point of this thread is to argue a situation NOT involving experienced players in closed guilds, you have to look at how this all relates to PUGs. Sure you can heal with your wiz, but will you join a pug and take on the role of primary healer? My guess is no, you don't want to deal with it.

[Rheebus]

I think this is a silly argument all the way around. Let the player chose his or her character's role. If they want to be a melee cleric, that's their choice. You have the choice to not group with them again if they aren't fulfilling their role to your standards.

I propose we change the LFM system.

1. Remove class restrictions from the LFM panel
2. Add role divisions to the panel
3. Add role settings for your characters (you can check boxes next to the roles you try to fill)
4. LFM Advertises for roles instead of classes
5. Leaders see roles and classes when players request to join a group

When that cleric with only the melee role box attempts to join your group, you have a better idea of what you are getting into when you accept them. If you are a cleric without "healer" checked and you find yourself being shut out of groups, you will have to either prove your worth in the few pugs you can find to make a name for your toon or start doing some secondary healing.

The next question is what roles should be on the LFM panel. My suggestions:

1. Damage Per Second (DPS)
2. InstaDeath (includes stat damaging, FoD/WoB/PK casters, vorpal addicts, etc... can be fundamentally different from DPS as these spells/abilities have little to no effect on red named bosses)
3. Tank
4. Crowd Control
5. Healer
6. Buffer

You get 3 slots on your toon to chose a primary, secondary and tertiary role for your character. My fighter might be a primaryPS, Secondary:InstaDeath, tertiary:Tank. My Wizard might be a primary:Crowd Control, Secondary:Buffer, TertiaryPS. That might give others more insight into the type of role you want to fill with your toon, and it will help LFM leaders fill the roles they are looking for. If people are honest, it will lead to better group dynamics as we all are chosen for the roles we want to play instead of the ones others expect us to play based on our class alone. This would also help leaders make choices about multiclass builds that can fill roles vastly different from the ones they look like they might fill. My 16Sor/2Pal/2Rog is a little hard to figure out for most LFM managers. He is a highly efficient Tank...better than any fighter/barbarian/paladin I have ever seen because of his high intimidate, great DR, and self-healing abilities. He gets refused form groups, I think because his role is hard to figure out for someone unfamiliar with the build.

What do you all think?

[Phidius]

It is also much easier for people to group with people they know than in pugs with egomaniacal healers who join a group looking for healing classes and then get upset and post in the forum when lo and behold they actually expected you to throw some healing spells...

I think most of the posting on the forums is done by people who didn't get the healing they were expecting

...If you see an LFM for Cleric/FvS and the LFM says "need healer" then treat it like any other LFM with a tag. Respect it like you expect people to respect "Know your way", "BYOH", "Zerg", or "Be self-sufficient". If you want to run that quest and that's the only LFM up, then conform or run your own group.

Very true... I'd go so far as to say you should learn how to read the LFM... many times you can determine that the party needs a dedicated healer even if they don't post something like "Need Healer".

[SaisMatters]

Incorrect.

Clerics can swap out any spell in their list for a healing spell at any time. I usually fill my spell list in PnP with buffs and nukes, and if I want to cast a heal, I have to tell the DM which spell I want to swap for, then cast.

Casters are already neutered in DDO versus DnD in that their available spells to choose from consist of 1/8 the actual spell list a PnP wizard has. The game design itself is what lumps casters into speccing for direct damage, or crowd control by limiting the spell selection from true PnP.

Granted, but your telling me you didn't covert most of your spells to healing ones? If so , i want to play with your DM, he seems to go easy on your party.

[Angar]

WOW has more diversity than DDO in the healing classes? /barf

I can build a melee favored soul that will have more sp at the end game than a full blown caster cleric, dump wis in favor of str, and swing an ax that crits into the high 100s low 200s, trips mobs, stuns mobs, and heals and buffs the party to boot. Can you do this in WOW? No - I played that game for 4 years, and while priests ruled in the WOW realm, they could not fight for squat. Regardless of which template you spec, you are a caster, in a dress.

Secondly there are no confines of class intent in DnD - thats the beauty of this game. 20 people can roll up 20 different fighters, and while the icon is the same in the group health panel, you can have 20 distinctly different fighters, with different abilities. Combine that with multiclassing and you get all kinds of unique options that a cookie cutter class game like WOW would not even begin to dream of having.

When I played PVP in WOW, I could tell EXACTLY what your capabilities were just by your class icon and the armor you are wearing. I could easily speculate on my chances of taking you out solo were simply based on 1 or 2 seconds of observation. I could also predict EXACTLY when that warlock or priest was going to pop that fear spell based on how many escape clickies they used and I could predict my winning or losing the battle based on if I had an escape clicky available for when that fear would be popped. etc. Its was and still is all cookie cutter compared to DDO and DnD in general.

Back on some semblance of topic, as for people with healing abilities not sharing - problem solved by putting "need healer" in LFM.

The point being, in WoW, the priest class was balanced for solo, party, or pvp play, both as a caster and a healer. Sure a priest couldn't melee, but the game was setup in such a way that they didn't need to. In DDO, everything you give to a class is taking away from something else. If you spec a cleric to be exceptional at offensive spells, he will still be an adequate healer, but only because the best non-cleric-or-fvs doesnt have nearly the capacity for healing as a poorly specced cleric. If you spec that cleric for melee, you are giving up so much wisdom that your offensive spells will be tough to land. You can spec him to be exceptional at healing, but then he will suck at melee and not be very solo friendly. And, of course, there is no PvP balance to speak of.. clerics are good against some classes and not so much against others. Yes, when you get into extremes, WoW was very generic in build options, but any class could effectively play the game as a solo player, party player, or in pvp. The same thing can not be said for DDO.

In DDO, you can make any class exceptional at what it does normally, and sometimes you can make them do things very well that are secondary to that class, but you can't make them exceptional at something outside the primary or secondary roles of that class. There are a few multi or cross classed toons that can excel in one given aspect of the game, and good players can find a synergy that works with other players to form well balanced groups with an odd assortment of classes, but there is only ONE combination of classes/roles that works every time, in every quest. That is healer/melee/caster/maybe rogue. Stick to that and you can do ANY quest or raid. The only thing that changes is how many of each you might need.

Yes, you can make classes work in this game for most anything, but you can't make a wiz cast divine buffs and drop mass heals on a group, you can't make a fighter who is exceptional at melee dps and still able to do all the arcane buffs and cast AoE DoTs, and you can't replace a cleric or FVS as the best healer in the game.

What you can do is learn the game well enough, and build toons with the right equipment so you can do things without all the benefits of a well rounded group. There is nothing you can say, or any comparison you can make to another game, however, that is going to make me substitute a wizard as a healer in an epic von, or put a cleric as a main tank in a hound. There are some things you might be able to get away with in a guild group, but a group looking for a healer is a group looking for a cleric or favored soul. Simple as that.

[Clay]

You still have not answered which divine offensive spells are worth their mana in epic content.

I am not sure what point you are tying to make. You are arguing that only arcanes have offensive capabilities in end game and that Clerics and FvS are there to heal?

Well first I disagree that only epic is "end game." End game is all the things you do at lvl 20. And using Amrath as an example, Arcanes are limited. What offensive spells do you use in Amrath? What kind of damage number are you getting in there on your fw?

My whole argument in this thread is that clr and fvs can do more than just heal and in certain areas end game included, they are more useful in offensive mode than in healing mode. The kind of thinking that pigeon holes one class into one role is limiting. And there is nothing you can say that will convince me to play my divines as heal-bots.

[PopeJual]

You still haven't answered how a fighter can be a primary healer, or a barbarian can take the place of a caster. Or how a wiz or sorc can be the primary healer.

[WF Barb voice on]Me can answer that. Me take place of caster by hitting caster really hard. Caster fall down and me take his place. That how me get movie tickets without waiting in long line.

Also, Wiz and Sorc am good healer. Wiz and sorc heal me all the time and then me not hit them really hard. Cleric and FvS are pretty, but cleric whine too much when me get hurt.[/WF Barb voice]

[Clay]

Angar, once again you seem to be reading more into my post that what I am saying.

When mentoring one new to the game, yes, it is better to start on a simple melee, or a less offensive cleric. But I always demonstrate that a cleric is more than just healing the red bars. Especially in a pug group you actually spend less manna healing if you use the cleric capabilities to the full. With a simple tower shield and a holy smite you can act like an intim and save the bbn a hole lot of damage... you can greater cmd a large number of mobs, sound burst, so on and so forth. And yes, I demonstrate this to new players on a cleric and show how they can make grouping in pugs more enjoyable. And with that "simple" melee... the addition of one Rog level in a Ranger makes that ranger more versatile and IS easily managed by a person new to the game.

I never advocated that everyone play exotic hybrids. I am simply arguing against the Clerics/FvS heal-bot mantra that is being espoused in this thread. My advocating against pigeon holing the divines is not the same as saying that a fighter has to be a primary healer. (Though I have seen a dragon marked halfling paladin-fighter play that role.)

The game design and mechanics allow for a great variety of builds and game play. I love that about the game and try to share that great feature with new people. The point is to have fun, isn't it? So, I say to them have fun. Explore. Try new things. At the same time, this is what will be expect of you in X raid. If you are a melee FvS and are join a raid asking for a healer type either you accept that limitation for that run, or don't join the lfm. But that is a lot different that saying, FvS shouldn't be melee. Nor is it necessary to limit new players to the "basics" because they are not experienced.

[Krag]

I am not sure what point you are tying to make. You are arguing that only arcanes have offensive capabilities in end game and that Clerics and FvS are there to heal?

Well first I disagree that only epic is "end game." End game is all the things you do at lvl 20. And using Amrath as an example, Arcanes are limited. What offensive spells do you use in Amrath? What kind of damage number are you getting in there on your fw?

My whole argument in this thread is that clr and fvs can do more than just heal and in certain areas end game included, they are more useful in offensive mode than in healing mode. The kind of thinking that pigeon holes one class into one role is limiting. And there is nothing you can say that will convince me to play my divines as heal-bots.

My point is:
clerics are reduced to pure healbots in epic unless they are melee specced.

Amrath may or may not be the endgame but there is little reason to repeat those quests. 1 time on normal/hard for flagging, 1 time on elite for Yugoloth favor and you are done. But the epic content has to be beaten over and over again until you get desired seals and shards. 99% of his time my capped cleric spends in raids and epics. No place for offensive casting there.