*walking*
*squish*
Ahhhh, sh*t, another pile of steaming cleric poo...you're supposed to clean up after
this bulls**t!
/not signed
(mostly on account of my 550 bb)
It's fun to throw BB here and there during Sins run. But this quest is not end-game.
I challenge you to solo Wiz King on arcane caster and on your "offensive" FvS and report about divine superiority thereafter.
Tell me what I'm doing wrong because I don't know any useful offensive spell for epic content.
Osmand d'Medani, Stonebearer Eric, Wardreamer
Forgive me for not reading all nine pages of this thread, I just couldn't do it.
I have a level 12 cleric right now, and it has been an experience. I am firmly AGAINST using my money for scrolls, wands, etc. In fact, I've only done that once, because I knew my mana wouldn't be enough to make it thru the quest. Never again. 30+ heal scrolls later, the group completed and I left.
However, I am specced to heal, with offensive spells coming in when I get a chance to throw them. I'm a firm believer in a little crowd control taking the edge off the mass cure moderates. In my mind, it's easier for the dps to kill an enemy when it's lying on the ground commanded. But that's just my opinion.
Odds are, I will not be spending plat on you when I quest with you. I use what scrolls I have sparingly, as I use my mana. If you're out of range, I'll tell you that; if you're blocked, I'll let you know. Yes, I may reposition myself to help the group better, but I'm not chasing you down. Sooo not my style. I've also told people to back out of combat because they're taking up too much of my mana.
I'm also a fan of putting aside the devotion weapon, putting on my beater, and jumping into combat here and there. Brightens my day a little bit.
Now, I love people who are self-sufficient and take care of themselves. I haven't run into it much, to be honest. I'm taking off curses and diseases, and healing probably more than I should be at level 12. But that's okay...cuz I'm learning how to heal all kinds of people, behind all kinds of toons. And, I'm learning when to leave the healing alone and kill the bad guys before the squishies jump into the fight.
My two cents, take it or leave it.
*sets up the shield and waits for flames
Certain things just irk me. Wiz and Sorcs I can understand taking a lot of damage, especially when hopping around FWs. BARBS on the other hand should NOT be taking a beating AND fighting outside the firewall at the same time. Rogues I can understand taking point in order to disable traps, not take point in order to charge up and get smacked to death in the next group they see. After running through a trap I can understand waiting for a heal on the other side, but not running BACK through the trap again to ask for a heal. When asking for a res, don't ask for it in the middle of a trap or still swimming in lava. When jumping across a large gap, don't charge ahead before Cleric can properly get their jumping stuff prepped. When still fighting a beholder, stop asking for buffs if you're a melee class. If you absolutely must use a hireling, don't hire a Warforged Barb Hireling. Stop asking for remove curse when it's mummy curse, clerics will happily remove it when they actually need to heal. When struck with 8~14 Negative levels and the Cleric/FvS doesn't have Greater Restore yet, do the cleric/fvs a favor and just get killed somehow as one res and one heal saves the SP pool everyone else depends on so much. Please learn to stop breaking barrels after dying to the first elite explosive barrel when you have no Evasion/Improved Evasion feat. Please res fellow clerics that still have a good amount of usable SP before resing the SP sponge.
I'm sure there's more, but these are things that makes me want to say BYOH.
Well, if you don't want to hear "heal yourself"; you could try taking less damage.
just a thought
The Great Gnome Conspiracy was here!
Be prepared to heal thyself..... Learn not to stand their and die like a little ***** if you're taking a lot of damage and not getting healed... Pretty simple....
There's no rule to any of it other than play smart.. Be prepared to cover yourself.....
umm i regularly solo it on my FvS... You think that is harder than Sins? The thing is I CAN do both... and I'd like to see your arcane solo any Amrath as easily as a FvS. I have solo'd VoD. all Amrath/desert/vale/refuge on various difficulties. My FvS is my favorite to play and my go-to guy when I need something.
And I would disagree with you that ONLY epic content is end game.
KhyberR e v e n a n t s RenownedThelanis
I'm not saying it's secondary. I'm saying it's equal.
A healing specced Cleric is a really good healer. A melee specced healer is a Tank/Healer. A Divine Caster is a nuker and a healer. They should ALL be healing, simply because they have the ability to heal. I've even said repeatedly that healing is one of the duties a Cleric should do, but not their only one, and certainly not their primary (as in, taking priority above all else) duty. However, this doesn't mean it's their secondary (or any lower) duty either. It's equal.
However, you can't and shouldn't let people yank around your resources at their whim.
I think the motto of the Cleric and FVS should be "I won't heal stupid". If someone's not gonna be a team player, then don't heal them.
I get what you are saying, but I disagree. Even a battle cleric is the top healer in the game. The cleric class is the best healer, which means that regardless of their origins in the DnD game set, in this game they have the primary role of healing. You can argue the point, but in the end, pugs will still look for clerics because they want a healer, not because they want a melee caster.
As for those of you who won't spend money to heal others, well, it's your choice, your money. But believe me, it's a two way door. Players who don't care so much about every copper coin in their purse usually don't have to worry about whether they will go broke healing others. In almost every PUG I take my healer in, he comes out with more potions than he went in with, and usually with offers to reimburse for the cost of scrolls and wands. For that same reason, I carry heal scrolls and pots on my non-casters just in case the cleric or caster in the group is straining his SP pool to keep me alive.
And above all, the choice to group with someone is exactly that: a choice. It is not hard to use your friends list as a "do not group with" list. If you find yourself always grouped with ungrateful and poor quality players, maybe you need to look at the common denominator in those groups: you.
So a pure barb has other roles than dps?
A pure sorc has other roles than casting/buffing?
I think what you are getting at is with the right player (and usually with a splash of a couple classes) you can diverge from the "primary role" of a class. However, if a pug is looking for a wiz/sorc, they don't care if you can solo VoD, they want a caster who can put haste on the melees and cast firewalls and finger things. If a group is looking for a cleric/fvs, they want a healer. If you aren't a healer, don't join. It seems simple to me.
Sure, the right player with the right gear can build a cleric to be able to solo some high level content, but there are quests where I would never replace an arcane caster with a cleric. Just because you can make a toon capable of something does not mean it becomes their primary role.
I think the problem is you are expecting everyone in this game to understand the full potential of every class and class combination before deciding how to fill a group. That works in experienced guilds with players who all know each other, but for the other 99.99% of the parties out there, it doesn't. This game is pretty straightforward: you take a melee, a caster, and a healer, mix it with maybe a rogue and two other of any class, and you can do any quest. It's that simple.
You seem to be one of those players who has played out all the basics, and now wants something different in the game. Great, I encourage it. But don't try to convince everyone else that mixing and matching a bunch of off the wall toons is somehow better than the good old standby of melee, caster, healer. Since there is no need to go further than the basic "2-dimensional mmo", the rest is just flavor. Nothing wrong with flavor, but it isn't the standard by which everyone plays.
I have not played a fvs yet, but I have a moderately high cleric, and high level rogue, fighter, sorc, and wiz. I have grouped with all sorts, both good and bad, and the one thing I have learned is a good player can make any class work to the limits of that class's capabilities. A bad player can screw up the most basic of toons. It is all about experience and ability. I would put money that a well build sorc in the hands of a skilled player could out dps and out cast a well built fvs given the same circumstances. I would also put money that a FVS can outheal any other class in the game. In my book that means that an FVS is a good primary healer, and under extreme circumstances, an offensive caster. I still won't put FVS with sorc and wiz when needing to pug a caster for my group.
hehe, you are here too..
Not going to directly address any singular points brought to light so far, but am going to respond in a relatively general way to some.
Cleric is the premier healing class in the game, with spell selection being weighted heavily towards healing and condition cures, and enhancements slanted towards making healing spells more powerful and efficient, as well as the persistent heal spells allotted at almost every spell level.
Favored Soul is a very close second, with Empowered Healing meta, AND Empower Spell also affecting heal spells, with their deep power pool they can, if specced for it, come darned close to equaling a healing cleric.
I have next to no experience with bard other than as a hagglebot, but from what I have seen they rank in a pretty far third in the healing race.
Who's fourth? Paladin? Way back there. Yes they can heal, but that's like saying a straight rogue can tank. They can do it, but there's certainly better choices for it.
As for the Warforged question, at later levels WF get not only a few ranks of Healer's Friend but also an item or two which decrease the penalty they take when being healed by divine magic, making them just as easy for a cleric to heal as a sorcerer.
Back when I rolled my first cleric, I knew I was going to be the healer for the party. Yes I had my suit of chain mail (AC5 baby!) shield and mace, and I would be up on the front lines with the Fighter, while the Magic User cast his one Magic Missile or Sleep spell for the day, but I knew that as soon as either myself or the Fighter got hit, I was pulling out one of my very limited Cure Lights or somebody was taking a dirt nap. (Back in '75 0 was dead). So yeah, clerics were intended to be warriors of the church, but part of their job as such was healing the front line combatants.
Ok, switching hats;
Nobody wanted to play the cleric. Nobody wanted to be stuck swinging a crappy little mace and playing walking bandaid. That's one of the reasons for the development of the Paladin. A Holy Warrior who could heal when necessary, but whose primary role was combat. Fast forward 35 years (god I feel old now, thanks all for bringing up 'original D&D guys) and the cleric class has changed significantly. While they are most efficiently used in the role of healer, they can be used to good effect as an offensive caster, and have a couple of serious whuparse spells in their repertoire. As nasty as an arcane? Not hardly, but still pretty impressive, especially when combined with the durability their healing/buffing lines give them.
But to address the meat of the matter; yes, it can cost a good healer (whether it be cleric, fvs, bard, pally, or whatever) to keep a group up and running even when things go as planned. To me, (healing) potions are a very expensive means for the melees to keep themselves rolling, and should typically be used to augment the healer's efforts in tough fights. Mana potions are an exorbitantly priced means for the healers to keep some blue in the bar they use to keep the red in the bars. Wands are great for after fight cleanup, not exactly cheap, but comparatively inexpensive. Scrolls can be really good for midfight emergencies, but they carry a bit of a pricetag also.
So melees, and I am speaking to myself here also; you can choose to spend a little bit of plat and play smart (use group tactics and party cohesion to reduce total damage taken, take it smart slow and safe) or spend a lot of plat and go nuts trying to go as fast as you can and rely on the healer using the wands/scrolls/pots which YOU have provided to try to keep your arse up and moving, or raise you when they can't.
Some people have put it very well in this thread; You can't heal stupid. I like 'God tells me to help those that help themselves' And by helping themselves, I don't necessarily mean using their own healing wands when I still have over half a blue bar left, I mean doing what they can to make my job doable.
True story, in a pug group other day (level 5 and 6 toons) on my healnanny FvS, with paladin, cleric, barb, rogue, ranger. Barb insists on charging a hallway filled with ogres and aggroing all of them. Rogue follows suit, ranger plinks until they reach melee range and then lines up next to paladin to melee. Cleric steps up next to ranger and alternates with melee and offensive spells. So 5 minutes later myself, paladin, and ranger are carrying the soulstones of the cleric, barbarian, and rogue, and I am at 0 power from trying to keep the pally and ranger healed as well as I could, while the cleric's power bar is still nearly full. Did I throw any heals at the cleric, barbarian, or rogue? Nope. Why? Cause you can't heal stupid, and I won't try. Did I use about 700 sp's healing the paladin and ranger? Sure did. Why? Because they did what they were supposed to do. I love the fact that you can play a battle cleric. But they are not a melee class, they can't tank as well as a melee class, and if they are drawing aggro from the melees, they can heal themselves, I'm focusing my energies on taking care of the people who are doing what they are supposed to do.
I have a suspicion that his concentration skill wasn't up to par or something. We were also on elite and they were getting hit hard and often. But yeah, if you are going to frontline as a cleric, and I am the dedicated healer of the group, I will assume you are going to be taking care of your own heals.
Read up to page 6.
Don't heal stupid, and wand whip with the free CMW wands from Kipling Vranch in the marketplace. Trade over a potion of Lesser Restore/Resist Acid, and let them know that these pots are available cheap at the marketplace. The middle. Of the marketplace. The potion vendor.
Oh yes, and try playing the different classes to get a better feel of how a group can work together.
Anyway, any thoughts on how Curse/Blindness no longer being permanent has affected the basic sufficiency learning curve? My previous experiences found the Harbour and its many Kobold Shamans relatively effective in introducing melee types to the wonders of the potion shop. Now I wonder whether those players who would have displayed such capability would now consider this a waste of plat, given the temporary nature of these afflictions.
Are you being intentionally obtuse? Or do you really think only linearly and attribute to others similar limitations?
This is the party where you are showing your wow colors? The core rules of this game are grounding in a system that allowed for and encouraged flavor. What do you think role playing is but flavor? If you limit your thinking to the melee caster healer,: all the time you are waiting for your lfm to fill, I will have spend productively in dungeons running with whatever comes along.
Until you run a high level (more than 17) clr and/or FvS you are not qualified to comment on what divines can offer for DPS in terms of offensive spell casting capabilities. You think you know but you don't. Try it, try expanding your horizons. You will be better qualified to assist new players and will most likely enjoy the game more.I have not played a fvs yet, but I have a moderately high cleric, and high level rogue, fighter, sorc, and wiz. I have grouped with all sorts, both good and bad, and the one thing I have learned is a good player can make any class work to the limits of that class's capabilities. A bad player can screw up the most basic of toons. It is all about experience and ability. I would put money that a well build sorc in the hands of a skilled player could out dps and out cast a well built fvs given the same circumstances. I would also put money that a FVS can outheal any other class in the game. In my book that means that an FVS is a good primary healer, and under extreme circumstances, an offensive caster. I still won't put FVS with sorc and wiz when needing to pug a caster for my group.
Yes, I am here, trying to enlighten others from the darkness of self imposed limitations.hehe, you are here too..
I say again: There is no class in this game that is limited to the pigeon hole you and people expecting 2-dimensional classes are limiting them to. I really don't know how to say it any simpler for you. I have watched a video of a wizard soloing Vod. I have seen a bbn intim work well with a respectable (not max but workable) ac. I have seen a melee sorc contribute better and more significantly than most fighters you will get. Rogues that tank. I have seen posts in the Achievements of Divine-less shroud runs--and no it was not an all WF party.
As limited in vision as you may be, there are others who look at classes and what granted feats they receive and envision something more than the basic:
Clerics heal
Fighters/barbarians melee/tank
Casters buff and cc.
If it were left to the limits that people are trying to put on the cleric class this game would be a whole hellovalot less fun.
KhyberR e v e n a n t s RenownedThelanis
You still have not answered which divine offensive spells are worth their mana in epic content.
Osmand d'Medani, Stonebearer Eric, Wardreamer
I would have to call bs on the highlight line above, judging by this post you seem upset that a cleric expected you to heal yourself up. Idk about anyone else but I pride myself on not asking a healer or caster for buffs or anything else when I know that I can take care of myself. You seem to be attempting to make this a "the healer wont heal us" as in the party when in fact it is pretty clear this is a "the healer didnt heal me" story. If you are so self sufficient you wouldnt care so much about what the healer is doing. I also think that now that Turbine has made this game as easy as it can be without marketing the game to 5-6 year olds, healers who dont hold everyones hand and allow everyone to be as bad as they can be is a great thing. On my cleric I would not only not heal a high level toon with no hps that has a dying issue, but I would gladly carry your stone to the farthest point away from a shrine and drop you off somewhere where you would realize that end chests are for the living not the underbuilt and undergeared people who cant handle themselves and then blame the healers