Pls drop the heal yourself rhetoric.

[Lleren]

On the subject of Clerics/Favored souls spending more plat then mainly mellee characters.

I would be really surprised if the "healing" classes did not end up spending more in game resources over time then any other class type.

Sure I carry around a selection of 20ish weapons, and yes some of those are expensive, but they are all permanent. If I find an upgrade to one, I resell the old one. When I aquire the best of the best versions, they are generally bound by the rules of the game. Those "healing capable" classes carry weapons as well, generally not as many though.

Armor, well we are all buying the same suits, until we sell them all off and get into custom or dropped "bound" armor, or us low AC types go with robes.

On other gear, rings and gloves and things, the best of the best stuff, yep its bound as well. The rest of the stuff we farm for or buy, and either resell once we are done with it, or pass it down to an alt. That is the same across the board, really

The only expendables I buy are potions, and while I may use a bunch of them some times, mostly they don't get used. "Healing capable" classes are buying potions too, and scrolls, and some wands. Most importantly the "healing capable" clases are buying mana potions, which is either through Turbine Points, or AH prices. And they will be restocking frequently if they get a string of bad pugs. If I get a string of bad pugs, then I use some more pots then I normally would. Both of us get a repair bill. Thier restock fee is generally higher then mine. The cost of one mana pot bought on the auction house would restock me many times...

-----------

The short version
The cost of one mana pot bought on the auction house, could completely stock my potions, possibly more then once, certainly more then one bad pug uses. Over time this alone will make playing a class with Mana more expensive then a class without. Thier restocking fee is simply higher.

[azrael4h]

I believe he is referring to the first 8 levels of the game where clerics can be drained dry by one, really, really bad fight. If lowbie clerics have no mana they better be **** sure they're either smashing heads or wand whipping, and even if it's the groups fault that gives them no reason to pike.

In the first 8 levels of the game, if you don't have CLW/CMW wands, you've been a dumb player. You can get these for free using collectibles. My level 5 Cleric is sitting with 8 CMW wands, all were free. I gave all of her CLW wands to my Rogue, who needs them more (his UMD isn't high enough for CMW yet). All of those were free. I have not dropped one copper on wands in this game except when I bought two arcane wands for a level 2 wizard guildie. My Paladin? I keep giving them away, so I don't know how many wands she had.

So wand whipping is not exactly a difficult thing to do for a new character, nor is it costly. You get CLW/CMW pots from the same collectors. I'm sure later level areas have collectors with similar, higher level, rewards as well.

The Cleric falls into a role of general support (Bards and Favored Souls depend on build, so don't count here, you never know what one of them can do). You always have healing spells available; to refuse to use them and cost the party an adventure is folly.

Of course, we all get groups where the Rogue is too busy sneaking to deal with traps, so the Barbarian always needs heals because he wants to run back and forth through traps. That's when you put away the wands for competent groups later on. Basic resists? Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, etc? Those can easily be stockpiled for free early on, so if you want them, you can have them no matter the class. Though I've gotten plenty of wands of those free as well; I just sell them. Even on Elite, I've not found any instance where the spell version was absolutely required, and only rare instances when they are at all (due to locked runes or what have you...). I keep the pots I find, give them out as needed. Easy and free.

I have only used Protection from Energy on other players, and of course Healing and Lesser Restoration etc... Other buffs are either used when I solo, or taken out for spells better suited for group play. I pretty much only heal when someone is down to 50% or less (Arcanes get more often, since they're squishy).

BTW, I have literally had a player (not a Barbarian) run through a trap, then decide to run back. Then ask for a heal. This was at the START of a long dungeon too, with some time before the rest shrine. Another player also ran through (the Rogue), but just took off alone, with a soon-coming message of "Your party member xxxxx has died". Which left me and a Ranger basically alone in a long dungeon set on Elite.

And the other night, it was reversed slightly; I was farming Durk's for Muckbane on Elite with a Cleric and a Fighter. I was on my newly created Rogue, who I made because my Guild has none to speak of. While I was in the middle of disarming the fire trap, the Cleric RAN THROUGH THE TRAP! Of course, being on Elite, and only level 3, he died instantly. Why have a Rogue if you'll just blitz through the traps (and die)?

This is why I rarely party with anyone outside my guild, and never on my Cleric. Though I need to party with a Warforged eventually, so I can dump my Oils of Repairs. I keep them too, for any Warforged I might party with, and have never managed to do so.

[PopeJual]

If you expect a cleric to spend plat to keep you alive then you are stupid.

If a cleric/Fvs shouldn't be expected to spend plat on a quest, then why should a Ftr/Barb/Pal/Rgr be expected to spend plat on a quest?

Maybe, because it will make the quest smoother, easier, faster or just plain possible?

I am having an absolute BLAST on my level 8 WF Barbarian. I know that he's a mana sponge right now for divine healers. I top myself off between fights. I DO expect the healers to keep me up DURING the fight, though. That's what healing is for and every pot that I chug in a fight is that many seconds that I can't swing my axe.

Self sufficient is good. I play a Cleric as well. Having healers that can heal effectively is also good.


(although I do think that it's okay in more challenging quests to reserve your mana only for the party members who actually contribute to the quest's completion...)

[Lerincho]

me thinks this thread should stop healing itself.

Clerics do not equal babysitters. Adventure accordingly. Have a nice day.

[Angar]

I don't know why these threads keep popping up all the time, but I guess it's because it's so fun to comment and see a bunch of people freak out because they don't want to be "restrained" by the stereotypes in the game. Yes, a ditchdigger can go on to do wonderful things in life, but when he is a ditchdigger, people expect him to dig ditches.

I run a Sorc, Wiz, Rogue, Fighter, and Cleric right now as my focus.. I play one or more every night, and never go more than a week without playing all of them at least once. They are all shroud ready, and have all been there, most are there every three-four days. I think I can say that I have experience in a variety of classes, at least enough to comment and not have my opinion dismissed out of hand.

When I am playing my cleric, I understand a few things:
First, I joined a party understanding that I will be the healer, probably the primary healer. Unless I specify otherwise BEFORE joining the group, that is my role. I do not get offended when I join a group and the first question is "do you heal or are you a battle cleric?"
Second, in my role as cleric, I will use my SP to heal. That is why I have it. The caster is there to cast firewalls and finger of death. My equivalent spells work great when I am soloing or when I don't have the responsibility to heal, and if there is any question to my role in the party, see above.
Third, as a healer, I need to use what I have at my disposal to heal. Whether it is scrolls, wands, SP pots, or just my spells, I do my job. However, unlike the first thing I understand (that I am a healer unless otherwise arranged), I am not EXPECTED to use pots, wands, or scrolls unless someone in the party volunteers to pay, reimburse, or give me the items in question.

The exception to the third item is raids. In a raid, I am expected to keep the party alive at all costs. If I don't feel like spending the money to do that, I have a choice to not join the group to begin with. Chances are, the raid needs me, not the other way around. If non-casters find pots in the raid, they usually send them my way, and many times, if it is a guild group that had to PUG a few spots, the leader of the group will offer up some scrolls or pots for my expenses. I might lose a little on one raid, and gain a little in the next.

In guild groups and raids, I just assume I will use pots, scrolls, wands, or whatever, and if it becomes any kind of burden at all, the group will very willingly reimburse me. That is a given in guild groups - we all share (within reason), and we all take care of each other. The same is not always true of pugs, but it is also my responsibility to conserve my SP so I don't have to be faced with the dilemma of whether to use a wand, scrolls, or pots. Usually this means not casting BBs or destruction, and letting the group handle it. I use my judgement on a case by case basis of whether my offensive spells will save me some healing SP or just burn more than necessary.

Yes, in the earlier levels, it is easy to get one bad fight that burns all your SP. Yes, a bad group (fighters with no fortification, casters with 8 con, low dps, rogues who grab too much aggro, etc) it can get costly, and once again, I follow my experience, and if it looks like it will be costly, I will first talk to the group about it, then maybe burn some of a wand or a couple scrolls, but if it gets too bad I will just announce that I am out of SP and they need to self heal til the next shrine. Usually that is all it takes to get a group in line to take less damage.

I don't have any issue with clerics or FVS's not speccing for healing, but if a party is looking for a cleric or FVS, they want a healer, not another caster or melee. Relegate yourself to joining groups who already have a cleric or FVS in their party, and don't forget to communicate. Telling the group leader you don't intend to waste your SP on healing BEFORE you get into the party can go a LONG way toward avoiding the sorts of conflicts to add to your obvious issues with playing a battlecleric or battlefvs outside your sphere of friends.

In case you missed it, I will stress one more time: a party looking for a cleric or FVS is looking for a healer. That is the way the game works. They are not trying to oppress you or fit you to their ideas of what a cleric or FVS should be in this game. Right now, there is no way to put up an LFM for a healer only.. you can type it and then select the two (effective) healer classes in the game, but inevitibly one of you battle clerics will join and cause some problems. Until they have a way to block battle clerics and melee FVS from joining an LFM when all they need is a healer, there will be conflicts. It is no different than a caster joining the group, then when everyone is buffing up, stating that he doesn't do buffs, and is not going to cast firewall.

Oh, and I do spend slightly more money in the long run with my cleric over a melee or other casters, but that is why you have multiple character slots - so you can have other toons to make money and keep you loaded with stacks of 100 heal scrolls, res scrolls, mass moderate scrolls, wands, and SP pots. Then again, I spend a lot on my casters buying components to pass out stoneskin all the time.. I go through 1000 of those (at a cost of over 1k gold each) every few weeks. Not as costly as buying majors, but then again, I never have to buy my majors, I get enough of them with my other toons.

[fytorebus]

Once your mana is gone, your mana is gone, until the next shrine or you use mana pots.

Stupid play can spend your mana faster then you can recover it.
Don't heal stupid.

"If dps dies its thier own <bleep> fault."

This is very true. You can really see the difference with a good and a bad party by observing the hp and sp loss.

[MystDragon]

I'm effectively a new player, and still feeling my way through the Stormreach crowd. I play a cleric.

So whats wrong with wand whipping anyway? I don't get enough SP to even begin to heal all these perpetually bleeding barbs and trap exploding rogues and rangers who think they're tanks, etc. I use those free wands from the marketplace all the time (a blessing on whoever at Turbine decided to provide a useful collectible!), and that little wand from Delera's too.

Now I find out I'm some kind of newb for doing so? All the players I've been keeping alive this way are sneering at me behind their computer screens?

Oh absolutely. Especially at low levels. The problem is mostly as you get beyond wand whipping range as stacks of healing scrolls are very expensive.

I outfit all my lower-level, wand capable characters similarily. There's nothing wrong with that. And by trading in those collectables, I've never had a wand shortage. Now I just buy a stack of them from my higher levels to put on them - but that's just because it's quicker.

I also expect to use them because at a certain point, their usefulness fades a bit. So I have them slated to use up anyhow.

[Zachski]

Umm, no, it shows how much PnP YOU'VE played. Were you there near the beginning? Do you know someone who was there near the beginning? I doubt it.

Clerics are holy warriors, meant to be on the front lines, tossing spells, fighting alongside the fighters, and healing WHEN NECESSARY.

Favored Souls are blessed individuals who FIGHT for the sake of their deity, not heal.

Everyone I know who has played PnP knows these things.

This isn't WoW. Clerics are not healers, they're holy warriors from whatever deity they worship. FVS aren't the Sorc-equivalent of healers, they're blessed individuals who have been told "Go and kill in my name" by their deities.

@ ditch-digger comment: That would only work if Clerics were ditch-diggers. They're not. Clerics are holy priests who have been led into the fray. Favored Souls are individuals chosen by god to go into the fray. There's nothing about "healing" there. Healing is, again, ONE of a Cleric's talents, not their ONLY talent, and not even their PRIMARY talent.

Of course, sure, you can treat them like primary healers. And I can treat Sorcerers and Wizards like primary Warforged healers. I can't believe people don't see the hypocrisy here of forcing Clerics and FVS to do stuff that they wouldn't expect Sorcerers and Wizards to do for Warforged.

These are all stupid stereotypes that people from WoW and Everquest think they can apply to an entirely different world.

This ain't your grandma's MMO. This is Dungeons and Dragons.

EDIT: I should add: I am not saying Clerics and FVS SHOULDN'T be healers. That's what people on the other side of the fence have been trying to twist my statements or the statements of others. I am saying, however, that Clerics and FVS have *freedoms*. It's like a TWF vs. a THF Barbarian, or an Arcane Archer vs. a Tempest, or a Fire/Ice Sorc vs. a Acid/Lightning Sorc vs. a CC Sorc, or a Nuking Wizard vs. a CC Wizard vs. a Generalist Wizard. No one class has a singular path. Even Barbarians have some variety.

A cleric has: Healing spells, Nuking Spells, Crowd Control Spells, buffing spells, debuffing spells, etc. There's several angles that a Cleric or a FVS can approach a situation, but people are so narrow minded they can't get past "Healing Spells"

I tell you, if a Wizard or a Sorcerer had Cure Light/Cure Serious/Cure Critical naturaly as Arcane casters, they STILL wouldn't be considered healers because they're "Wizard" and "Sorcerer", and to people, that means "NUKE FOR BIG DAMAGE", while Clerics or Healers, even with the godly spells such as Mass Command and Blade Barrier, are considered "HEAL ME SO I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT MYSELF" because that's what they're used to in other MMOs.

[Ritesign]

I think (hope? desperately want to believe?) that we can all agree that nobody has any right to tell you how to spend your money, in-game or otherwise. Party members have as much right to tell you to buy and use wands as you have to tell them to buy and use potions. It's even more apparent when they're asking you to use mnemonics, which you'd have to spend TP's on if you wanted a steady stream of them.

That being said, wouldn't it be great if you'd buy and use the wands AND they'd buy and use the potions? How much less useful is a wizard who gripes over the cost of stoneskin components? A fighter who won't spring for some decent weapons? Sure, nobody has any right to control how you spend your in game coin, but why wouldn't you want to spend it doing something useful?

[Zachski]

I think (hope? desperately want to believe?) that we can all agree that nobody has any right to tell you how to spend your money, in-game or otherwise. Party members have as much right to tell you to buy and use wands as you have to tell them to buy and use potions. It's even more apparent when they're asking you to use mnemonics, which you'd have to spend TP's on if you wanted a steady stream of them.

That being said, wouldn't it be great if you'd buy and use the wands AND they'd buy and use the potions? How much less useful is a wizard who gripes over the cost of stoneskin components? A fighter who won't spring for some decent weapons? Sure, nobody has any right to control how you spend your in game coin, but why wouldn't you want to spend it doing something useful?

There's actually a bit of a difference.

For one thing, buffs are "more permanent" than healing. While they do wear out, they wear out predictably, except when there are enemies that dispel buffs, which would cause any headache.

Healing, however, can be blink of an eye. Spending lots of money on something in addition to all the other necessities is hard enough. But when a Fighter insults you for not using your hard-earned items while *fictional scenario that's probably happened* he stands IN A TRAP, not moving, and fighting a monster... yeah. That hard-earned plat can easily go down the drain because of one stupid individual.

Hence the whole "Clerics and FVS own their SP/Wands, not the party".

However, helping the healer Cleric or FVS out is grand. After all, it IS a big job, healing a party, especially when you've got stupid members. Sparing plat, wands, scrolls, etc. helps

Also, if a Cleric or FVS doesn't give you back your healing wand with its remaining charges... then you know not to party with that Cleric or FVS in the future.

Oh, and after having said this about Clerics and FVS having roles other than healing, I think I'm actually gonna roll a healing-focused Cleric. Why? Because I do feel like healing, and healing IS one of the roles. If I choose to focus on it, then go me.

I just... need to figure out what ELSE I'm going to do. I want to be better than a hireling, you know.

[Lleren]

I think (hope? desperately want to believe?) that we can all agree that nobody has any right to tell you how to spend your money, in-game or otherwise. Party members have as much right to tell you to buy and use wands as you have to tell them to buy and use potions. It's even more apparent when they're asking you to use mnemonics, which you'd have to spend TP's on if you wanted a steady stream of them.

That being said, wouldn't it be great if you'd buy and use the wands AND they'd buy and use the potions? How much less useful is a wizard who gripes over the cost of stoneskin components? A fighter who won't spring for some decent weapons? Sure, nobody has any right to control how you spend your in game coin, but why wouldn't you want to spend it doing something useful?

The auction house cost of one mana pot is more then I end up spending for consumables over several bad pugs, let alone average or good pugs. The Cost over Time is not similar in scale, even including weapons, armor, and other gear.

[Ritesign]

The auction house cost of one mana pot is more then I end up spending for consumables

100% true, and I agree completely. I'd never advocate using mnemonics just to keep a failing group alive. I'd even question if it was worth using wands/scrolls. But I stand saying a "healer" (by playstyle, and not class) shouldn't have a problem using wands/scrolls on their group, assuming an average group that's worth keeping alive.

*Throws hands up in mock surrender* And before you guys string me up for frivolous with other peoples plat, every character I have carries whatever healing items his UMD let's him use, and a few reserved just to help the healers.

[Angar]

Clerics are holy warriors, meant to be on the front lines, tossing spells, fighting alongside the fighters, and healing WHEN NECESSARY.

Favored Souls are blessed individuals who FIGHT for the sake of their deity, not heal.

Everyone I know who has played PnP knows these things.

and this is DDO, where clerics and FVS are not only the ONLY effective healers in the game, but are considered a pure healing class by the majority of the population.

This isn't WoW. Clerics are not healers, they're holy warriors from whatever deity they worship. FVS aren't the Sorc-equivalent of healers, they're blessed individuals who have been told "Go and kill in my name" by their deities.

This isn't WoW, you are right.. in WoW, the priest is a primary healer, is squishy as heck, and has some great dot and fear spells. Clerics are not squishy, but even in the most extreme circumstances, a cleric cannot touch a fighter for melee combat. Paladins are the holy warriors. Clerics are the healers. Clerics have a few MODERATE offensive spells, and a horribly built set of enhancements to combat undead. They also have a HUGE set of party buffs and the widest array of healing spells in the game, and their enhancements are specced towards healing.

@ ditch-digger comment: That would only work if Clerics were ditch-diggers. They're not. Clerics are holy priests who have been led into the fray. Favored Souls are individuals chosen by god to go into the fray. There's nothing about "healing" there. Healing is, again, ONE of a Cleric's talents, not their ONLY talent, and not even their PRIMARY talent.

Once again, this is DDO, not DnD, and in this game, a healer is a requirement in nearly every quest, with nearly every party. There are exceptions to everything, but as much as a caster is expected to drop haste on the group, and lay down his primary DoT spell (firewall), as well as use his CC and DD spells, a cleric is expected to cast his various cure and heal spells, and buff the group. If you add a rogue to an LFM for a party with 5 players, you are looking for someone with trap skills or evasion. If you get a rogue with no trap skills, simply because he chose to put all his skill points into bluff, umd, balance, jump, tumble, swim, heal, diplomacy, and haggle, and all his enhancements in assassin and sneak attack, your group still does not need him, they need a rogue, with rogue skills like disarm and trap evasion.
Favored souls are not considered primary healers, but everyone knows that a well built FVS can be a better healer than a cleric, and even a poorly built FVS can heal better than anything other than a cleric. Even if a FVS is specced to be a melee machine with spells to back him up, if a group has an LFM up for either FVS or Cleric, and NO OTHER CLASS, that group is looking for a healer. They only included those two classes because those are the only two effective healing classes. If you join a group as a Cleric or a FVS, you should ALWAYS let the group know if you are going to heal, because if you don't specify it very clearly, it will be implied. This is a fact, and it is indisputable, which is the reason there is conflict in every single PUG where a cleric joins a group then doesn't heal once in the quest. The ditchdigger comment is an "analogy", and like a ditchdigger being expected to dig ditches, a cleric is expected to be a healer. There is an exception in both cases, but you don't hire a ditchdigger to paint your house, you hire a house painter.. (if you still don't get it, the house painter is the fighter that you expect to melee, the ditch digger is the cleric that you expect to heal..)

Of course, sure, you can treat them like primary healers. And I can treat Sorcerers and Wizards like primary Warforged healers. I can't believe people don't see the hypocrisy here of forcing Clerics and FVS to do stuff that they wouldn't expect Sorcerers and Wizards to do for Warforged.

These are all stupid stereotypes that people from WoW and Everquest think they can apply to an entirely different world.

This ain't your grandma's MMO. This is Dungeons and Dragons.

Healing spells and beneficial group buffs make up about 80% of the clerics spell book. Repair spells make up about 10% of a wizards spellbook. It is pretty darn obvious which class was expected to heal. And this ain't Dungeons and Dragons, this is DDO, an MMO based loosely on DnD, but set in an environment far different than the PnP that most rules and stereotypes for DnD were designed. The mobs have mega-times more HP than in PnP, and do mega-times more damage. AC is irrelevant in this game unless taken to the outermost extremes, and most of the skills that made it to the game from DnD don't work anything like they did in the PnP version. Years and years of MMO development and refinement have determined that in this type of environment, a tank class, a caster class, and a healer class are all required for a well functioning party. It is no different in DDO than it is in just about any other MMO out there.

EDIT: I should add: I am not saying Clerics and FVS SHOULDN'T be healers. That's what people on the other side of the fence have been trying to twist my statements or the statements of others. I am saying, however, that Clerics and FVS have *freedoms*. It's like a TWF vs. a THF Barbarian, or an Arcane Archer vs. a Tempest, or a Fire/Ice Sorc vs. a Acid/Lightning Sorc vs. a CC Sorc, or a Nuking Wizard vs. a CC Wizard vs. a Generalist Wizard. No one class has a singular path. Even Barbarians have some variety.

A cleric has: Healing spells, Nuking Spells, Crowd Control Spells, buffing spells, debuffing spells, etc. There's several angles that a Cleric or a FVS can approach a situation, but people are so narrow minded they can't get past "Healing Spells"

I tell you, if a Wizard or a Sorcerer had Cure Light/Cure Serious/Cure Critical naturaly as Arcane casters, they STILL wouldn't be considered healers because they're "Wizard" and "Sorcerer", and to people, that means "NUKE FOR BIG DAMAGE", while Clerics or Healers, even with the godly spells such as Mass Command and Blade Barrier, are considered "HEAL ME SO I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT MYSELF" because that's what they're used to in other MMOs.

Clerics have a path of Healer, Healer/undead killer, or Healer/light melee/light caster. Sorcs and wizards have paths of DD/DoT, DD/CC, or DD/Buffs. They can focus their DD on one of the elements, and now Wizards can choose to focus more thoroughly on the Necromancer side of things, although at a severe penalty to their effectiveness in 95% of the quests in this game. A caster can focus on CC, but like a cleric who doesn't heal, if a caster chooses to forsake all his DD and Buff spells, he is worthless in 90% of the game. Anyone would tell you that a caster that doesn't use DD or firewall and doesn't haste the group is worthless and they would rather do the quest without them.

Clerics can make cool battle clerics, but it was neither the planned primary job for them in this game, nor are they superior substitutes for their caster counterpart or melee classes. FVS can, on the other hand, make effective melee/caster combinations, but only a poorly planned FVS can't effectively heal a party in most cases.

In the end, you play who you want to play, but don't try to convince the rest of the population that your cleric was intended to be a melee/caster and not a healer. If you choose to be a "battle cleric", more power to you, but don't join a party, particularly one looking for only a cleric/fvs, and expect them to accept that you don't want to heal them.

The thing you should always remember is: in a party of 6, you only need 1 healer, 1 caster, and 1 melee. You MIGHT need 1 rogue for traps. That leaves at least 2 slots for all the "other" types of players. Ranged only rangers, bards, dps rogues who don't disarm traps, battle clerics, melee fvs, and any multi-class disaster out there are all extras that can run the quest and probably even contribute, but not replace the key elements. You can squeek by with a different type of party, but you either have to all know how to improvise and work together or you will have a tough time of it. That's just the way the game is. If you don't like it, go back to PnP, or play a single player DnD based game.

[SaisMatters]

Umm, no, it shows how much PnP YOU'VE played. Were you there near the beginning? Do you know someone who was there near the beginning? I doubt it.
Been playing sinse ad+d junior
Clerics are holy warriors, meant to be on the front lines, tossing spells, fighting alongside the fighters, and healing WHEN NECESSARY.

Paladins are holy warriors not clerics

Favored Souls are blessed individuals who FIGHT for the sake of their deity, not heal.
The debate is not about Fv's

Everyone I know who has played PnP knows these things.
All four of your school friends don't count

This isn't WoW. Clerics are not healers, they're holy warriors from whatever deity they worship. FVS aren't the Sorc-equivalent of healers, they're blessed individuals who have been told "Go and kill in my name" by their deities.

Has nothing to do with wow. Go back to any d+d edition, or video games like balder's gate, icewind dale, neverwinter nights or any other party formated d+d video game. If your cleric wasn't the primary healer your party died.

@ ditch-digger comment: That would only work if Clerics were ditch-diggers. They're not. Clerics are holy priests who have been led into the fray. Favored Souls are individuals chosen by god to go into the fray. There's nothing about "healing" there. Healing is, again, ONE of a Cleric's talents, not their ONLY talent, and not even their PRIMARY talent.
Yes IT IS THEIR PRIMARY TALENT
Of course, sure, you can treat them like primary healers. And I can treat Sorcerers and Wizards like primary Warforged healers. I can't believe people don't see the hypocrisy here of forcing Clerics and FVS to do stuff that they wouldn't expect Sorcerers and Wizards to do for Warforged.


These are all stupid stereotypes that people from WoW and Everquest think they can apply to an entirely different world.

This ain't your grandma's MMO. This is Dungeons and Dragons.
D+D has been around since your grandma was a kid!

EDIT: I should add: I am not saying Clerics and FVS SHOULDN'T be healers. That's what people on the other side of the fence have been trying to twist my statements or the statements of others. I am saying, however, that Clerics and FVS have *freedoms*. It's like a TWF vs. a THF Barbarian, or an Arcane Archer vs. a Tempest, or a Fire/Ice Sorc vs. a Acid/Lightning Sorc vs. a CC Sorc, or a Nuking Wizard vs. a CC Wizard vs. a Generalist Wizard. No one class has a singular path. Even Barbarians have some variety.

A cleric has: Healing spells, Nuking Spells, Crowd Control Spells, buffing spells, debuffing spells, etc. There's several angles that a Cleric or a FVS can approach a situation, but people are so narrow minded they can't get past "Healing Spells"

I tell you, if a Wizard or a Sorcerer had Cure Light/Cure Serious/Cure Critical naturaly as Arcane casters, they STILL wouldn't be considered healers because they're "Wizard" and "Sorcerer", and to people, that means "NUKE FOR BIG DAMAGE", while Clerics or Healers, even with the godly spells such as Mass Command and Blade Barrier, are considered "HEAL ME SO I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT MYSELF" because that's what they're used to in other MMOs.

Tell me how many raids have you seen saying...wanted cleric for DPS?? I'd bet none! Infact I've seen MANY "battle clerics" tossed from raids

[Zachski]

In the end, you play who you want to play, but don't try to convince the rest of the population that your cleric was intended to be a melee/caster and not a healer. If you choose to be a "battle cleric", more power to you, but don't join a party, particularly one looking for only a cleric/fvs, and expect them to accept that you don't want to heal them.

This statement right here is frustrating me because this is not what I am saying.

Here, let me bold it out for you.

I am not saying Clerics or FVS should not heal. I am saying they can do things besides heal, and do it well! They are not primary healers. They are holy casters. Healing just happens to be ONE of their duties that they SHOULD do, but not the ONLY thing they should do.

Capiche?

The frustration most Clerics are having isn't that they don't want to heal. It's that they don't want to heal when the person in question is perfectly capable of healing himself. We're talking about things like inbetween battles or in a case where a potion WILL heal a Barbarian enough.

Now then... stop twisting people's words!

[Angar]

I think (hope? desperately want to believe?) that we can all agree that nobody has any right to tell you how to spend your money, in-game or otherwise. Party members have as much right to tell you to buy and use wands as you have to tell them to buy and use potions. It's even more apparent when they're asking you to use mnemonics, which you'd have to spend TP's on if you wanted a steady stream of them.

That being said, wouldn't it be great if you'd buy and use the wands AND they'd buy and use the potions? How much less useful is a wizard who gripes over the cost of stoneskin components? A fighter who won't spring for some decent weapons? Sure, nobody has any right to control how you spend your in game coin, but why wouldn't you want to spend it doing something useful?

Excellent points, but there is a level of expectation in this (and any) game for the players to know their role. A fighter going into a battle against a vampire without any silver weapons is an idiot. A wizard who won't cast Haste on a party is an idiot. Sorry if it is offensive to hear it, but if you can't do your part, you are worthless to the group. Carrying pots for all circumstances should be a given on any toon, and any good leader of a group should at least ask the basics before getting into a quest: do the melee's have cure pots, resist pots, blindness, disease, poison, and curse removal pots? Does the rogue have Int pots (at lower levels), heroism pots, cure wounds pots, and all the others, as well as theives tools and gear to enhance his skills? Does the caster have all the above pots, plus a mneumonic if things get rough? How about wands if he does run out of SP? Does the healer have cure wands, potions, scrolls, etc? Does the melee know what their job is in the quest? Does the caster? Does the rogue? Does the healer? And most important: Does the healer know we added him to this party to heal us?

Yes, not every group understands that there are expectations of his class, but we always have the option of leaving before entering the quest. Ask a couple questions.. Clerics should ask if the melee all have fortification and their own pots for between battles. Casters should ask if it is OK to drop XXXX spells. Melees should ask if they will be getting heals and buffs or if they are expected to cover it all themselves. The more communication and familiarity, the better the group will be.

If you don't expect the next player to spend his money on items he should have, then don't expect the group to be successful.

[Angar]

This statement right here is frustrating me because this is not what I am saying.

Here, let me bold it out for you.

I am not saying Clerics or FVS should not heal. I am saying they can do things besides heal, and do it well! They are not primary healers. They are holy casters. Healing just happens to be ONE of their duties that they SHOULD do, but not the ONLY thing they should do.

Capiche?

The frustration most Clerics are having isn't that they don't want to heal. It's that they don't want to heal when the person in question is perfectly capable of healing himself. We're talking about things like inbetween battles or in a case where a potion WILL heal a Barbarian enough.

Now then... stop twisting people's words!

You made it pretty clear that you think a cleric's ability to heal is secondary to his ability to cast offensively or melee. If you don't think you did, then go back and look at your post. I disagree entirely with that notion. However, what you just posted is closer to what I believe in this game, and that is: a cleric can potentially be something other than a primary healer. However, their primary role is, and always will be that of a healer.

I agree that groups should be as self sufficient as possible, particularly between fights. However, I am the type that will ask the group to gather for a quick group heal between fights. If I run out of SP because of it, then it will be up to the group to take care of themselves until the next shrine. I am also that player who always hands out stoneskin when I am a caster, and always tries to keep the group hasted, and I will use my own cure curse pots on other players to save the cleric SP, or drop heal scrolls when playing my sorc or rogue. If the few thousand gold per quest is an issue, you need to learn to use the pawn shops and auctioneer a little more effectively. I might spend a million gold a week on scrolls, potions, and wands between my toons, but in that time I will usually find at least one item that sells for a few hundred k, and a whole lot of stuff that goes to the pawnshops for at least the difference, and usually much much more. Plus it means the groups run that much more smooth.

[SaisMatters]

You made it pretty clear that you think a cleric's ability to heal is secondary to his ability to cast offensively or melee. If you don't think you did, then go back and look at your post. I disagree entirely with that notion. However, what you just posted is closer to what I believe in this game, and that is: a cleric can potentially be something other than a primary healer. However, their primary role is, and always will be that of a healer.

I agree that groups should be as self sufficient as possible, particularly between fights. However, I am the type that will ask the group to gather for a quick group heal between fights. If I run out of SP because of it, then it will be up to the group to take care of themselves until the next shrine. I am also that player who always hands out stoneskin when I am a caster, and always tries to keep the group hasted, and I will use my own cure curse pots on other players to save the cleric SP, or drop heal scrolls when playing my sorc or rogue. If the few thousand gold per quest is an issue, you need to learn to use the pawn shops and auctioneer a little more effectively. I might spend a million gold a week on scrolls, potions, and wands between my toons, but in that time I will usually find at least one item that sells for a few hundred k, and a whole lot of stuff that goes to the pawnshops for at least the difference, and usually much much more. Plus it means the groups run that much more smooth.

YES YES AND MORE YESES!!!! +1 to ANGAR

[Talon_Oakenleaf]

[QUOTE=Angar;2833207]I don't know why these threads keep popping up all the time, but I guess it's because it's so fun to comment and see a bunch of people freak out because they don't want to be "restrained" by the stereotypes in the game. Yes, a ditchdigger can go on to do wonderful things in life, but when he is a ditchdigger, people expect him to dig ditches.

Wow 4 posts on page 8 - i guess your one of these people

Whats wrong with ditchdiggers? Last time I checked, a ditchdigger operated a large construction machine not a shovel. Must be thier ability to be more than what people like you expect of them.

I say to end this nonsense, all the clerics out there only group with your guilds or better yet unite! Say good bye to PUG's and alot of this attitude.

One other thing - Have a great day people, it's only a game.

[Clay]

blah bla blah... what a lot of talk about what?

Cleric/FvS =/= babysitter.

This is not WoW. Divine casters are so much more mulit-dimensional in this game... as are all classes.

There is no single class that can be pigeon-holed into one role in this game. That is the best part of it. If you can imagine the advantages of a class mixed with something else you have a whole new type of character to play. Some are exceptional, some mediocre, but the journey is the fun part, isn't it? I never thought Wizards could melee... till I saw Oddlived solo VoD. Hmmm... talk about thinking out of the box. There are a great many examples like that.

So, you new people who are expecting this game to be as 2-dimensional as other MMOs please try to expect less and observe, read, learn more.

Angar, I challenge you to go through Sins of Attrition with a healing clr and a bunch of bbns... then go thru there as a soulstone in a battlecasting FvS pocket. And then tell me that the Clerics in the game have moderate (lol) offensive spells. Have you even played a high level divine?

And please, can we put a hold on these whiny threads.