Pls drop the heal yourself rhetoric.

[JasonJi72]

I understand that self sufficient characters are better to run with, and that crowd control spells save mana, but let's be honest; a cleric is a healer no matter what the build is. I have encountered some poorly played divine casters recently while playing my non-cleric characters.

All of my characters are self sufficient, and capable of healing others. If I am in a group with one of my melee's, and they become the primary healer in a group with a cleric or fvs, then something is wrong. Yes people can use potions and wands, but if the dps characters are spending half the battle healing themselves and others, the battle will last much longer, and someone is likely to die. The smoothest runs are the ones where the group stays together, listens to the leader, and kills things quickly.

There has been a lot of discussion on the forums about clerics not using wands and or forcing others to heal themselves, and I think this has led to some players backing away from the healbot role even more. You do not have to play as a healbot (I won't do it), but play your cleric as a cleric. It is a great responsibility to fill the role of a cleric. You will get all the blame and none of the credit, but often you make the difference between success and failure.

Trust me, I understand the heartbreak of running with a chain of bad groups as a cleric, and there is a tendency to back off a bit, considering the cost of carrying those groups. Just make sure you get back on the horse after you fall off.

[redgod]

spoken like a true mana sponge

[Kistilan]

"I'm one of the baddest master raiders of all time. One of the best casters and one of the best tanks of all time. Hold my star. I'm elite, pike. Heal yourself." -- Rick James.

[Ashiel_Dragmire]

Nah I agree with the OP. Looking around on the forums I see a lot of Cleric/Favored Souls griping about how they are tired of having people use up their precious SP as if each Spell Point cost them several thousand plat. Of course, not all Clerics and Favored Souls are like that, but those that are give the rest a bad name.

Everyone SHOULD try to be self sufficient, but if you don't want to be a healer, don't be a Cleric or Favored Soul. I know they are capable of many things and performing multiple roles, but unfortunately the two classes have been type-casted as healers, and we all know it.

So if you want to heal, be a Cleric or Favored Soul. If you'd rather blast people with spells or smash them with weapons, roll a Wizard or a Ranger or something.

[Twerpp]

There has been a lot of discussion on the forums about clerics not using wands...

LOL. If you are genuinely suggesting clerics should wand whip yeah do your server a favor and uninstall.

[Dutch01]

I understand that self sufficient characters are better to run with, and that crowd control spells save mana, but let's be honest; a cleric is a healer no matter what the build is. I have encountered some poorly played divine casters recently while playing my non-cleric characters.

All of my characters are self sufficient, and capable of healing others. If I am in a group with one of my melee's, and they become the primary healer in a group with a cleric or fvs, then something is wrong. Yes people can use potions and wands, but if the dps characters are spending half the battle healing themselves and others, the battle will last much longer, and someone is likely to die. The smoothest runs are the ones where the group stays together, listens to the leader, and kills things quickly.

There has been a lot of discussion on the forums about clerics not using wands and or forcing others to heal themselves, and I think this has led to some players backing away from the healbot role even more. You do not have to play as a healbot (I won't do it), but play your cleric as a cleric. It is a great responsibility to fill the role of a cleric. You will get all the blame and none of the credit, but often you make the difference between success and failure.

Trust me, I understand the heartbreak of running with a chain of bad groups as a cleric, and there is a tendency to back off a bit, considering the cost of carrying those groups. Just make sure you get back on the horse after you fall off.

This

[AllanGreenspan]

Never rub another man's rhubarb.

[LunaCee]

Spoken like one of the whiners for which reason my FvS stays anon and only groups with guildmates. My SP is not there for YOU! It is there for me to assist in completing the quest. In many cases that means soloing the quest while carting around five n00bs who soul-stoned themselves by rushing in madly without any self buffs (they expected me to spend wands and SP giving them all their buffs when the wizard, ranger, and paladin could have shared the load for at least half the basic buffs) and expected me to keep each and every single one of their idiot selves alive while dashing around corners, behind pillars, falling into traps face-first and expecting me to heal them for their stupidity.

HA! Run along and shell out a cool 10K plat or more on pots and live with BYOH. My Paladin is capable of doing a heck of a lot with two cure serious wands, some creative footwork, and an eye on where the party is and what mobs are doing what. Which is also why my pally rarely dies and usually ends up getting away in one piece with the stone of the divine caster with the most remaining SP (or the more effective playing one if it makes enough of a difference) and then resurrects them in a safe spot... and which is why when playing say an FvS I can have a field day soloing a quest on elite and getting nice drops, not have to watch out for stupid, and actually make a lot of money because I'm not hemorrhaging plat on idiots who would suck me dry.

[Dutch01]

Nah I agree with the OP. Looking around on the forums I see a lot of Cleric/Favored Souls griping about how they are tired of having people use up their precious SP as if each Spell Point cost them several thousand plat. Of course, not all Clerics and Favored Souls are like that, but those that are give the rest a bad name.

Everyone SHOULD try to be self sufficient, but if you don't want to be a healer, don't be a Cleric or Favored Soul. I know they are capable of many things and performing multiple roles, but unfortunately the two classes have been type-casted as healers, and we all know it.

So if you want to heal, be a Cleric or Favored Soul. If you'd rather blast people with spells or smash them with weapons, roll a Wizard or a Ranger or something.

Oh ye of little sense! Know that of which you speak before offending others. Clerics and FvS are not your nanny's. You pigeon hole them into a single role, much like others and I can assume you might do with rogues. Clerics and FvS can be extremely effective crowd control and melee characters. Sometimes even the best offense is controlling mobs and not having to heal you. Is healing what clerics and FvS do inherently extremely well? Yes of course it is. Is it the only thing the can or will do? Absolutely not!!! If you haven't already, I highly suggest you try one then get back to us.

[Lleren]

Once your mana is gone, your mana is gone, until the next shrine or you use mana pots.

Stupid play can spend your mana faster then you can recover it.
Don't heal stupid.

"If dps dies its thier own <bleep> fault."

[biggin]

Nope, don't agree with you here, partly anyway. I don't mind playing nannybot sometimes (could be Guiness and sandwich time), but only if the other 5 people are being effective. If after 2 fights I'm out of SP even with helping out CC and people expect me to just start wand whipping/scroll healing, then the answer is most definitely not. I have plenty of plat, but as other people said, it's easier for me to just run, drop a BB, rinse and repeat without having to dump 25k plat on resources.

Even at lower levels playing my Bard, when I get into the mix and I get low I know to start bunny hopping and wand whipping myself if I'm out of SP so I can get back in there or until the healer can catch back up. My wands are cheaper for me anyway and I always tell the healer not to waste resources on me (SP or consumables) unless we're in the thick of it. Unless it's guildies or friends, I actually feel bad about them having to spend what they may make out from the quest just to keep me alive. I'm not saying a 20 Barb should jump around drinking heal pots, but if there is a way for you to be at least a little self sufficient and self buff that goes a very long way.

[stilldamom]

Nah I agree with the OP. Looking around on the forums I see a lot of Cleric/Favored Souls griping about how they are tired of having people use up their precious SP as if each Spell Point cost them several thousand plat. Of course, not all Clerics and Favored Souls are like that, but those that are give the rest a bad name.

Everyone SHOULD try to be self sufficient, but if you don't want to be a healer, don't be a Cleric or Favored Soul. I know they are capable of many things and performing multiple roles, but unfortunately the two classes have been type-casted as healers, and we all know it.

So if you want to heal, be a Cleric or Favored Soul. If you'd rather blast people with spells or smash them with weapons, roll a Wizard or a Ranger or something.

SP are NOT free, (they cost plat/DDO points when we are constantly casting on people that are not on our screen) and NO WHERE in the word CLERIC do I see the word HEAL. As a cleric I carry para/disrupting/smiting/holy/pure good/etc. If my sole purpose in life was to heal someone else, I would not be spending my heard earned plat on items such as these, to keep myself alive when hot-headed DPSers decide to run ahead, around corners, behind pillars and through portals (as someone else stated) without so much as a care in the world about the rest of the group.

[Draclaud]

Never rub another man's rhubarb.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn0ecHHHUGo

+1 for using that quote. Brings back memories

[Ashiel_Dragmire]

Oh ye of little sense! Know that of which you speak before offending others. Clerics and FvS are not your nanny's. You pigeon hole them into a single role, much like others and I can assume you might do with rogues. Clerics and FvS can be extremely effective crowd control and melee characters. Sometimes even the best offense is controlling mobs and not having to heal you. Is healing what clerics and FvS do inherently extremely well? Yes of course it is. Is it the only thing the can or will do? Absolutely not!!! If you haven't already, I highly suggest you try one then get back to us.

I've done it before, wasn't for me. I don't like playing nanny, which (while I realize that Clerics and Favored Souls are extremely capable Crowd Controllers, Offensive Casters, and Melee) is what most people seem to expect those two classes (and to a lesser extent Bards) to be. I'm not trying to offend anyone, I'm just sayin' it how I see it.

SP are NOT free, (they cost plat/DDO points when we are constantly casting on people that are not on our screen) and NO WHERE in the word CLERIC do I see the word HEAL. As a cleric I carry para/disrupting/smiting/holy/pure good/etc. If my sole purpose in life was to heal someone else, I would not be spending my heard earned plat on items such as these, to keep myself alive when hot-headed DPSers decide to run ahead, around corners, behind pillars and through portals (as someone else stated) without so much as a care in the world about the rest of the group.

Spell Points in and of themselves are free. You get them when you rest, finish a quest, or get DV'd by a Cleric. Elixirs and other SP restoring items are not free. Believe me I know that (which is why I give my elixirs to hard working, intelligent casters of all types. And while the word "Heal" isn't in Cleric or Favored Soul, you can't deny that that is exactly what the majority of the population (especially around lower levels with newer players) considers the two classes to be.

If I see a Cleric wand whipping heals during a quest and it isn't because s/he didn't manage their SP properly, I'll offer them some gold/plat to cover part of the cost or just hand them any wands I loot, because I know those are certainly not free.

Honestly, I think it's great that you can do it all, I wish I could, but I'm not cut out to be a Cleric/Favored Soul, because I don't want to be responsible for others actions or inactions and then get yelled at for not spamming heals. Instead I just take to the front lines and do my best to kill things quickly and efficiently while at the same time try to make it easier for healers to heal me (which as a WF isn't that easy).

[TheDjinnFor]

LOL. If you are genuinely suggesting clerics should wand whip yeah do your server a favor and uninstall.

I believe he is referring to the first 8 levels of the game where clerics can be drained dry by one, really, really bad fight. If lowbie clerics have no mana they better be **** sure they're either smashing heads or wand whipping, and even if it's the groups fault that gives them no reason to pike.

[Clay]

A cleric/FvS heals yes. A cleric/FvS also kicks some major butt.

No good cleric/FvS complains about group healing... they complain about a party member that asks for every remove that they can simply and easily do themselves. There is no reason not to have remove: blindness, curse, fear, poison, lesser restore, cure pots on any character. I get annoyed when asked constantly for simple thing should be done individually. I never begrudge a heal on a melee kicking ass and taking names... but having to hold their hand with these little things makes me wonder how they got to the upper levels.

I guess what good divines mean more is: have the ability to heal yourselves should the situation require it. But that is long, so it usually gets shortened to: be self sufficient or even byoh (if running without a divine)

[Woody00]

Nah I agree with the OP. Looking around on the forums I see a lot of Cleric/Favored Souls griping about how they are tired of having people use up their precious SP as if each Spell Point cost them several thousand plat. Of course, not all Clerics and Favored Souls are like that, but those that are give the rest a bad name.

Everyone SHOULD try to be self sufficient, but if you don't want to be a healer, don't be a Cleric or Favored Soul. I know they are capable of many things and performing multiple roles, but unfortunately the two classes have been type-casted as healers, and we all know it.

So if you want to heal, be a Cleric or Favored Soul. If you'd rather blast people with spells or smash them with weapons, roll a Wizard or a Ranger or something.

No, no, and no. A well built/geared/played BC is a thing to behold and FvS's are like bards; they are good healers if they want to spec for that. I never assume any FvS I party with is a main healer unless they have a name like SirHealsYou, then its safe to assume they are healer builds. Yes we gripe about our sp, mainly because of players who look at it like a type of damage shield. I as a healer would rather aggro a mob and drag them through a BB then let the melee types sit and fight it out some times because its cheaper than throwing the heals. If I as a cleric tell you to stop tanking because you cant take it then listen to me. Clerics, FvS, Bards, and any other healer type can tell how much fort you have and how many hp you have without MyDDO. Just because you think you can does'nt mean you can. A lot of players look at having a cleric in the party as an excuse to play recklessly or not learn to play at all. We signed up to have fun first, not be babysitters/scapegoats for horrid players.

[Stormanne]

Until you are willing to play a cleric or favored soul yourself, you've no business making claims as to how those two classes should be played. If you think that they are there to babysit you, that is your opinion, and is quite possibly not shared by the cleric that is with you.

[Zombiekenny]

If you expect a cleric to spend plat to keep you alive then you are stupid.

[Ashiel_Dragmire]

I should quit while I'm ahead because for the most part I agree with you. I'll just comment and go along my merry way.

No, no, and no. A well built/geared/played BC is a thing to behold and FvS's are like bards; they are good healers if they want to spec for that. I never assume any FvS I party with is a main healer unless they have a name like SirHealsYou, then its safe to assume they are healer builds. Yes we gripe about our sp, mainly because of players who look at it like a type of damage shield. I as a healer would rather aggro a mob and drag them through a BB then let the melee types sit and fight it out some times because its cheaper than throwing the heals. If I as a cleric tell you to stop tanking because you cant take it then listen to me. Clerics, FvS, Bards, and any other healer type can tell how much fort you have and how many hp you have without MyDDO. Just because you think you can does'nt mean you can. A lot of players look at having a cleric in the party as an excuse to play recklessly or not learn to play at all. We signed up to have fun first, not be babysitters/scapegoats for horrid players.

A well-geared BC is probably a sight to behold. Unfortunately I've yet to see one (nobody's fault, just a statement). And I also agree with you on Favored Souls, I generally (as the party leader, ALWAYS) make sure that they are healers. Heck, I ask Clerics the same thing about half the time (this thread is making me wonder if I should up that to all the time). I listen to the healers if they ask me to do such and such (unless they ask me to do something I know I'm incapable of doing). And I'll admit that when I first started playing that a cleric in the group meant go wild. Then I got tired of dying.

This is a poor comparison I'm sure, but I know what it is like to be type-casted by your Class. It seems like all of the PuGs I'm in think that a Warforged Fighter equals a tank. I'm not a tank, I'm DPS (I'd like to say I'm a good one, but that's up to you I suppose). So from now on I'll make sure that Clerics and Favored Souls are in fact healers rather than just assuming.

Until you are willing to play a cleric or favored soul yourself, you've no business making claims as to how those two classes should be played. If you think that they are there to babysit you, that is your opinion, and is quite possibly not shared by the cleric that is with you.

I'm not (or at least I don't think I am) stating that ALL Clerics and Favored Souls must be healers, I'm just stating a stereotype that permeates the game.

Anyway, I'm gonna duck out before I get too much Divine Aggro. Hope I didn't tick too many people off.