Pls drop the heal yourself rhetoric.

[JasonJi72]

I understand that self sufficient characters are better to run with, and that crowd control spells save mana, but let's be honest; a cleric is a healer no matter what the build is. I have encountered some poorly played divine casters recently while playing my non-cleric characters.

All of my characters are self sufficient, and capable of healing others. If I am in a group with one of my melee's, and they become the primary healer in a group with a cleric or fvs, then something is wrong. Yes people can use potions and wands, but if the dps characters are spending half the battle healing themselves and others, the battle will last much longer, and someone is likely to die. The smoothest runs are the ones where the group stays together, listens to the leader, and kills things quickly.

There has been a lot of discussion on the forums about clerics not using wands and or forcing others to heal themselves, and I think this has led to some players backing away from the healbot role even more. You do not have to play as a healbot (I won't do it), but play your cleric as a cleric. It is a great responsibility to fill the role of a cleric. You will get all the blame and none of the credit, but often you make the difference between success and failure.

Trust me, I understand the heartbreak of running with a chain of bad groups as a cleric, and there is a tendency to back off a bit, considering the cost of carrying those groups. Just make sure you get back on the horse after you fall off.

[redgod]

spoken like a true mana sponge

[LunaCee]

Spoken like one of the whiners for which reason my FvS stays anon and only groups with guildmates. My SP is not there for YOU! It is there for me to assist in completing the quest. In many cases that means soloing the quest while carting around five n00bs who soul-stoned themselves by rushing in madly without any self buffs (they expected me to spend wands and SP giving them all their buffs when the wizard, ranger, and paladin could have shared the load for at least half the basic buffs) and expected me to keep each and every single one of their idiot selves alive while dashing around corners, behind pillars, falling into traps face-first and expecting me to heal them for their stupidity.

HA! Run along and shell out a cool 10K plat or more on pots and live with BYOH. My Paladin is capable of doing a heck of a lot with two cure serious wands, some creative footwork, and an eye on where the party is and what mobs are doing what. Which is also why my pally rarely dies and usually ends up getting away in one piece with the stone of the divine caster with the most remaining SP (or the more effective playing one if it makes enough of a difference) and then resurrects them in a safe spot... and which is why when playing say an FvS I can have a field day soloing a quest on elite and getting nice drops, not have to watch out for stupid, and actually make a lot of money because I'm not hemorrhaging plat on idiots who would suck me dry.

[steeldocparker]

Spoken like one of the whiners for which reason my FvS stays anon and only groups with guildmates. My SP is not there for YOU! It is there for me to assist in completing the quest. In many cases that means soloing the quest while carting around five n00bs who soul-stoned themselves by rushing in madly without any self buffs (they expected me to spend wands and SP giving them all their buffs when the wizard, ranger, and paladin could have shared the load for at least half the basic buffs) and expected me to keep each and every single one of their idiot selves alive while dashing around corners, behind pillars, falling into traps face-first and expecting me to heal them for their stupidity.

HA! Run along and shell out a cool 10K plat or more on pots and live with BYOH. My Paladin is capable of doing a heck of a lot with two cure serious wands, some creative footwork, and an eye on where the party is and what mobs are doing what. Which is also why my pally rarely dies and usually ends up getting away in one piece with the stone of the divine caster with the most remaining SP (or the more effective playing one if it makes enough of a difference) and then resurrects them in a safe spot... and which is why when playing say an FvS I can have a field day soloing a quest on elite and getting nice drops, not have to watch out for stupid, and actually make a lot of money because I'm not hemorrhaging plat on idiots who would suck me dry.

i feel you a fellow cleric - BC < superhealer from 10 miles away in the bottom of a dungeon all alone because i spent time to loot after i healed everyone up then off thy go in single - dieing 1 by one - with the constant squeeeeeel of HEAL ME - only problem is there r 5 of them and one of me so for now i only tnk/dps teams i go with another cleric/healer - 2 helping each other and the party alot btr than 1 cleric trying to help 5 good luck and have fun I'm only human donate some heal wands to ur clerics in a party - or maybe just your favorite healer - it would be nice

[systemstate]

i feel you a fellow cleric - BC < superhealer from 10 miles away in the bottom of a dungeon all alone because i spent time to loot after i healed everyone up then off thy go in single - dieing 1 by one - with the constant squeeeeeel of HEAL ME - only problem is there r 5 of them and one of me so for now i only tnk/dps teams i go with another cleric/healer - 2 helping each other and the party alot btr than 1 cleric trying to help 5 good luck and have fun I'm only human donate some heal wands to ur clerics in a party - or maybe just your favorite healer - it would be nice

Your post appears to be overrun with pesky smileys... You should put down some sticky traps or something.

[Mr_Ed7]

Are Clerics expected to heal?
You bet they are.

Are they strictly healers?
No of course not.

Do you have to make a healing cleric?
No, however people will expect you to heal.

Play your Battle Clerics (redundantcy) but you will have to make your intentions known, and don't expect to keep that 6th spot if there is not another character playing the role of "healer".

On a personal note my cleric level 18 is specced for healing.
When I made my Favored Soul, I did not want that role.
So while I can heal, I will only do so in emergency purposes and will fill my party with a cleric to do so.

[ryingar]

Spoken like one of the whiners for which reason my FvS stays anon and only groups with guildmates. My SP is not there for YOU! It is there for me to assist in completing the quest. In many cases that means soloing the quest while carting around five n00bs who soul-stoned themselves by rushing in madly without any self buffs (they expected me to spend wands and SP giving them all their buffs when the wizard, ranger, and paladin could have shared the load for at least half the basic buffs) and expected me to keep each and every single one of their idiot selves alive while dashing around corners, behind pillars, falling into traps face-first and expecting me to heal them for their stupidity.

HA! Run along and shell out a cool 10K plat or more on pots and live with BYOH. My Paladin is capable of doing a heck of a lot with two cure serious wands, some creative footwork, and an eye on where the party is and what mobs are doing what. Which is also why my pally rarely dies and usually ends up getting away in one piece with the stone of the divine caster with the most remaining SP (or the more effective playing one if it makes enough of a difference) and then resurrects them in a safe spot... and which is why when playing say an FvS I can have a field day soloing a quest on elite and getting nice drops, not have to watch out for stupid, and actually make a lot of money because I'm not hemorrhaging plat on idiots who would suck me dry.

Don't forget the casters who recently decided that they aren't going to cast/carry Haste... When I'm healing and the caster doesn't throw haste (within reason of course), no heals for that guy.

[Havenor]

Not going to directly address any singular points brought to light so far, but am going to respond in a relatively general way to some.
Cleric is the premier healing class in the game, with spell selection being weighted heavily towards healing and condition cures, and enhancements slanted towards making healing spells more powerful and efficient, as well as the persistent heal spells allotted at almost every spell level.
Favored Soul is a very close second, with Empowered Healing meta, AND Empower Spell also affecting heal spells, with their deep power pool they can, if specced for it, come darned close to equaling a healing cleric.
I have next to no experience with bard other than as a hagglebot, but from what I have seen they rank in a pretty far third in the healing race.
Who's fourth? Paladin? Way back there. Yes they can heal, but that's like saying a straight rogue can tank. They can do it, but there's certainly better choices for it.
As for the Warforged question, at later levels WF get not only a few ranks of Healer's Friend but also an item or two which decrease the penalty they take when being healed by divine magic, making them just as easy for a cleric to heal as a sorcerer.
Back when I rolled my first cleric, I knew I was going to be the healer for the party. Yes I had my suit of chain mail (AC5 baby!) shield and mace, and I would be up on the front lines with the Fighter, while the Magic User cast his one Magic Missile or Sleep spell for the day, but I knew that as soon as either myself or the Fighter got hit, I was pulling out one of my very limited Cure Lights or somebody was taking a dirt nap. (Back in '75 0 was dead). So yeah, clerics were intended to be warriors of the church, but part of their job as such was healing the front line combatants.

Ok, switching hats;

Nobody wanted to play the cleric. Nobody wanted to be stuck swinging a crappy little mace and playing walking bandaid. That's one of the reasons for the development of the Paladin. A Holy Warrior who could heal when necessary, but whose primary role was combat. Fast forward 35 years (god I feel old now, thanks all for bringing up 'original D&D guys) and the cleric class has changed significantly. While they are most efficiently used in the role of healer, they can be used to good effect as an offensive caster, and have a couple of serious whuparse spells in their repertoire. As nasty as an arcane? Not hardly, but still pretty impressive, especially when combined with the durability their healing/buffing lines give them.
But to address the meat of the matter; yes, it can cost a good healer (whether it be cleric, fvs, bard, pally, or whatever) to keep a group up and running even when things go as planned. To me, (healing) potions are a very expensive means for the melees to keep themselves rolling, and should typically be used to augment the healer's efforts in tough fights. Mana potions are an exorbitantly priced means for the healers to keep some blue in the bar they use to keep the red in the bars. Wands are great for after fight cleanup, not exactly cheap, but comparatively inexpensive. Scrolls can be really good for midfight emergencies, but they carry a bit of a pricetag also.
So melees, and I am speaking to myself here also; you can choose to spend a little bit of plat and play smart (use group tactics and party cohesion to reduce total damage taken, take it smart slow and safe) or spend a lot of plat and go nuts trying to go as fast as you can and rely on the healer using the wands/scrolls/pots which YOU have provided to try to keep your arse up and moving, or raise you when they can't.
Some people have put it very well in this thread; You can't heal stupid. I like 'God tells me to help those that help themselves' And by helping themselves, I don't necessarily mean using their own healing wands when I still have over half a blue bar left, I mean doing what they can to make my job doable.
True story, in a pug group other day (level 5 and 6 toons) on my healnanny FvS, with paladin, cleric, barb, rogue, ranger. Barb insists on charging a hallway filled with ogres and aggroing all of them. Rogue follows suit, ranger plinks until they reach melee range and then lines up next to paladin to melee. Cleric steps up next to ranger and alternates with melee and offensive spells. So 5 minutes later myself, paladin, and ranger are carrying the soulstones of the cleric, barbarian, and rogue, and I am at 0 power from trying to keep the pally and ranger healed as well as I could, while the cleric's power bar is still nearly full. Did I throw any heals at the cleric, barbarian, or rogue? Nope. Why? Cause you can't heal stupid, and I won't try. Did I use about 700 sp's healing the paladin and ranger? Sure did. Why? Because they did what they were supposed to do. I love the fact that you can play a battle cleric. But they are not a melee class, they can't tank as well as a melee class, and if they are drawing aggro from the melees, they can heal themselves, I'm focusing my energies on taking care of the people who are doing what they are supposed to do.

[Zachski]

I love the fact that you can play a battle cleric. But they are not a melee class, they can't tank as well as a melee class, and if they are drawing aggro from the melees, they can heal themselves, I'm focusing my energies on taking care of the people who are doing what they are supposed to do.

W-w-w-what!?

The Battle Cleric wasn't even healing HIMSELF!?

Umm... that's the entire reason you GO battle cleric. To be a melee that can heal yourself. Beat the enemy by outlasting them, letting the Healer Cleric worry about one less Melee, that sorta thing.

[Kistilan]

"I'm one of the baddest master raiders of all time. One of the best casters and one of the best tanks of all time. Hold my star. I'm elite, pike. Heal yourself." -- Rick James.

[Twerpp]

There has been a lot of discussion on the forums about clerics not using wands...

LOL. If you are genuinely suggesting clerics should wand whip yeah do your server a favor and uninstall.

[TheDjinnFor]

LOL. If you are genuinely suggesting clerics should wand whip yeah do your server a favor and uninstall.

I believe he is referring to the first 8 levels of the game where clerics can be drained dry by one, really, really bad fight. If lowbie clerics have no mana they better be **** sure they're either smashing heads or wand whipping, and even if it's the groups fault that gives them no reason to pike.

[Twerpp]

I believe he is referring to the first 8 levels of the game where clerics can be drained dry by one, really, really bad fight. If lowbie clerics have no mana they better be **** sure they're either smashing heads or wand whipping, and even if it's the groups fault that gives them no reason to pike.

Yeah, well in any given low level group theres few others than can also wand whip. Bards, Rangers, Pally, and arcanes can repair, especially with all the splashes out there. Why should it always be the cleric that pay$ to wand whip a class than can do it themselves? Anyone with a wand can easily get themselves back to full health in seconds by alternating wand/pot/wand/pot in seconds at 8th and below.

If its the groups fault especially they should take some responsibilty and suck down pots to compensate for their lack of skill.

[Fenrisulven6]

Why should it always be the cleric that pay$ to wand whip a class than can do it themselves?

Spot on.

Its no surprise that the peeps who don't carry pots and expect to be wand-whipped... don't carry wands to hand over to the cleric.

Its not about the healer's "role", its about expecting someone else to cover the cost of your heals.

[azrael4h]

I believe he is referring to the first 8 levels of the game where clerics can be drained dry by one, really, really bad fight. If lowbie clerics have no mana they better be **** sure they're either smashing heads or wand whipping, and even if it's the groups fault that gives them no reason to pike.

In the first 8 levels of the game, if you don't have CLW/CMW wands, you've been a dumb player. You can get these for free using collectibles. My level 5 Cleric is sitting with 8 CMW wands, all were free. I gave all of her CLW wands to my Rogue, who needs them more (his UMD isn't high enough for CMW yet). All of those were free. I have not dropped one copper on wands in this game except when I bought two arcane wands for a level 2 wizard guildie. My Paladin? I keep giving them away, so I don't know how many wands she had.

So wand whipping is not exactly a difficult thing to do for a new character, nor is it costly. You get CLW/CMW pots from the same collectors. I'm sure later level areas have collectors with similar, higher level, rewards as well.

The Cleric falls into a role of general support (Bards and Favored Souls depend on build, so don't count here, you never know what one of them can do). You always have healing spells available; to refuse to use them and cost the party an adventure is folly.

Of course, we all get groups where the Rogue is too busy sneaking to deal with traps, so the Barbarian always needs heals because he wants to run back and forth through traps. That's when you put away the wands for competent groups later on. Basic resists? Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, etc? Those can easily be stockpiled for free early on, so if you want them, you can have them no matter the class. Though I've gotten plenty of wands of those free as well; I just sell them. Even on Elite, I've not found any instance where the spell version was absolutely required, and only rare instances when they are at all (due to locked runes or what have you...). I keep the pots I find, give them out as needed. Easy and free.

I have only used Protection from Energy on other players, and of course Healing and Lesser Restoration etc... Other buffs are either used when I solo, or taken out for spells better suited for group play. I pretty much only heal when someone is down to 50% or less (Arcanes get more often, since they're squishy).

BTW, I have literally had a player (not a Barbarian) run through a trap, then decide to run back. Then ask for a heal. This was at the START of a long dungeon too, with some time before the rest shrine. Another player also ran through (the Rogue), but just took off alone, with a soon-coming message of "Your party member xxxxx has died". Which left me and a Ranger basically alone in a long dungeon set on Elite.

And the other night, it was reversed slightly; I was farming Durk's for Muckbane on Elite with a Cleric and a Fighter. I was on my newly created Rogue, who I made because my Guild has none to speak of. While I was in the middle of disarming the fire trap, the Cleric RAN THROUGH THE TRAP! Of course, being on Elite, and only level 3, he died instantly. Why have a Rogue if you'll just blitz through the traps (and die)?

This is why I rarely party with anyone outside my guild, and never on my Cleric. Though I need to party with a Warforged eventually, so I can dump my Oils of Repairs. I keep them too, for any Warforged I might party with, and have never managed to do so.

[winsom]

LOL. If you are genuinely suggesting clerics should wand whip yeah do your server a favor and uninstall.

Thats not fair. healing with wands is a very smart spell point-saving strategy for many levels.

Not everyone reading the forums is currently playing a cleric with a Heal spell or over 1000 total SP.

[bcgone]

LOL. If you are genuinely suggesting clerics should wand whip yeah do your server a favor and uninstall.

Can I get an AMEN brother.

To each his own. However, I dont heal bad pugs anymore unless I see some serious effort to use good battle tactics. The minute 3 tanks head in 3 directions and all end up at 5% health, I leave the group. Its not about mana and scrolls, its about wasting time and resources with players that dont understand the benefits of smooth fast runs. Just my 2 cents.

[Dutch01]

I understand that self sufficient characters are better to run with, and that crowd control spells save mana, but let's be honest; a cleric is a healer no matter what the build is. I have encountered some poorly played divine casters recently while playing my non-cleric characters.

All of my characters are self sufficient, and capable of healing others. If I am in a group with one of my melee's, and they become the primary healer in a group with a cleric or fvs, then something is wrong. Yes people can use potions and wands, but if the dps characters are spending half the battle healing themselves and others, the battle will last much longer, and someone is likely to die. The smoothest runs are the ones where the group stays together, listens to the leader, and kills things quickly.

There has been a lot of discussion on the forums about clerics not using wands and or forcing others to heal themselves, and I think this has led to some players backing away from the healbot role even more. You do not have to play as a healbot (I won't do it), but play your cleric as a cleric. It is a great responsibility to fill the role of a cleric. You will get all the blame and none of the credit, but often you make the difference between success and failure.

Trust me, I understand the heartbreak of running with a chain of bad groups as a cleric, and there is a tendency to back off a bit, considering the cost of carrying those groups. Just make sure you get back on the horse after you fall off.

This

[Ashiel_Dragmire]

Nah I agree with the OP. Looking around on the forums I see a lot of Cleric/Favored Souls griping about how they are tired of having people use up their precious SP as if each Spell Point cost them several thousand plat. Of course, not all Clerics and Favored Souls are like that, but those that are give the rest a bad name.

Everyone SHOULD try to be self sufficient, but if you don't want to be a healer, don't be a Cleric or Favored Soul. I know they are capable of many things and performing multiple roles, but unfortunately the two classes have been type-casted as healers, and we all know it.

So if you want to heal, be a Cleric or Favored Soul. If you'd rather blast people with spells or smash them with weapons, roll a Wizard or a Ranger or something.

[AllanGreenspan]

Never rub another man's rhubarb.