Pls drop the heal yourself rhetoric.

[BrinLondo]

Forgive me for I have sinned:

I no longer carry wands. If I have a wand, I've bought it for regular group that I travel with, just in case. But I don't carry wands anymore. It does add up. You've touched on a couple of issues that I see and I'll break it down:

The Healbot vs. Battle Cleric debate: Never understood this as a cleric--I'm neither. I'm a cleric. I will almost never "hang back" and just heal. If there's a mob, I'm squaring off with an archer or a caster, until someone else can engage. I'm all for scrimmaging. At the heart of this debate is some basic common sense. It's situational. There are quests, that despite your parties make up, any cleric will need to "hang back" and heal. To do otherwise will be a party wipe. There are other quests were my best use is to "put a blade on a critter."

Communication within the party is key. Don't assume clerics are carrying wands, most of us don't. Our blue mana bar is usually it. We have expensive shopping habits at the AH too. Inform us of big battles to come, buffs needed, etc... (I'd also like to confess that I do "carry" FoM. There was an unfortunate death on the plateau of Giant Hold--a certain frustrated female mage wailed during an Ice Storm--while she was meleeing--"I can't believe our cleric doesn't have FoM!!" I did. Didn't think it was going to be needed--cast it on everyone--but her--which is why she died =)) Here's a tip kiddies: Never speak about your party cleric as if they aren't there or they are a hireling. We have tantrums too!

Cockiness is supreme arrogance and this is the worst. These are the "eliters" who must do every quest on elite, even though they are sorely pressed to complete the quest reasonably well on "hard." I've begun to avoid these groups. It's basic math here to an extent. I have so many SPs, there are so many shrines, and the party simply isn't built well enough or equipped well enough to beat the adventure without it being a slaughter-fest.

There's no better feeling for a cleric to make it to the first shrine in a quest with half of their mana bar still standing! It's a sign that you have a good and well equipped group. Likewise, if your cleric is out of mana constantly from heals, the party needs to concede that it's in over it's head.

Self-sufficiency is important. We clerics die too and unfortunately we can't use our wands while we're dead.

Still I will never subscribe to following a group about and constantly casting heals. Should a party want this, I would suggest a hireling cleric.

I am surprised at the number of people (rangers, bards, and pallys) who give a "ty" when healed. Yes your mana bar is full, but I look at it this way--someone's gotta get me to the shrine if I go down--so why not? There is no right or wrong here, just the need for communication (and FoM for a meleeing mage), and acknowledgment of what a party can realistically achieve.

[Zachski]

If it's the sole job of Divine Casters to heal the party, it's the sole job of Arcane Casters to heal the Warforged

No ifs, ands, or buts. Don't use a double standard.

Clerics and Favored Souls are not primarily healers, although they ARE good at healing (except Warforged). Blade Barrier, Mass Command, all of these spells can PREVENT damage by either killing the enemy or disabling them (except end raids where enemies don't speakie the common tongue)

And the best way to heal is to prevent damage. The best way to prevent damage is to make sure that the enemies are dead. Blade Barrier is arguably the most damaging spell in the game-- why would you want to waste that?


On a side note...

If you're not willing to play a Cleric, don't expect others to listen to you. Heck, the entire reason you don't want to play them is PROBABLY because you think they're nothing but healers. And if you don't like playing them like that, why do you expect others to?

It's the whole "I don't want to do it, so I'll make YOU do it" mentality.

Clerics and Favored Souls SHOULD heal, yes. But it's not their sole or even their primary duty. It's ONE of their duties. Just like healing Warforged is ONE of the duties a Sorcerer and Wizard should be doing.

[Khimberlhyte]

LOL, how many wands/pots/scrolls can you buy for 1 metalline of pure good weapon? I sure didnt buy those weapons for ME. I only ever use them for the group.

Sure you bought them for yourself. Unless you're a monk, and only carry those weapons to quests so that you can donate them to your other party members.

They are not consumed. Wands are. Everyone has repair and equipment costs, I already made that point. Get over it, you're not a precious and unique snowflake. How many of those could you buy for a Superior Devotion VI item? Or a SP storing item? I still buy weapons, armor, +wis items (and +con and +str), fortification items, etc. What, do you think clerics just show up in their Korthos gear or something? Have blue bar, will travel?

Yet i still fork over plat/pots etc all the time.

Uh huh. I'll believe you. Thousands wouldn't.

Easiest to get a group with, Easiest to get a guild with, and defining factor in party success. Needed in all high lvl quests. Can solo anything. You poor, poor clerics, whatever will you do? It must be sooo hard farming larges in amrath solo? Too bad all that solo loot you get over melee cant buy you consumables huh?

Never been to amrath, too many alts so far and haven't hit high level content yet. I have struggled with funds with my cleric all the way to level 11 so far (got XP for 12 in the sands last night), and don't see an end in sight yet. I prefer to run in groups rather than grind loot to buy wands for you, so suck it up, buttercup.

Feel free to roll up a cleric for yourself if you're jealous. There is a reason that many clerics stick to guild runs, which you should learn pretty quickly.

[Arlith]

Just like healing Warforged is ONE of the duties a Sorcerer and Wizard should be doing.

You pay for my halfling sorc to swap out a spell for a repair/reconstruct spell (and swap it back) or give me scrolls/wands and my halfling sorc will heall your wf. The issue is not the same. It is seldom that I run with wf. I feel no need to carry a spell/wands/scrolls for a race I run with once in a blue moon. Now, if that halfling sorc started running regularly with WF, the story would be different. And of course, my halfling wizzie is a whole different story. Just remind me to swap out spells before we enter. She's a forgetfull wench.

I seldom carry wands. I carry a stack or two of heal scrolls on my FvS (and my sorc, rog, and rgr), but it is not often I need them on anyone but my sorc. I keep a few mana pots around too. Honestly though, usually when I need them, it is due to my own stupidity (yeah jack ass, nice going leaving all the metas on when you don't need them!).

I have not been in a "high resource quest" yet where someone (usually more than one) doesn't offer plat/pot/wands/scrolls to offset the cost of healing. If some of you other healers are not seeing that, perhaps it's your "I am not here to heal you" attitude that puts people off.

[Yagi]

Uh huh. I'll believe you. Thousands wouldn't.

Er I've had plenty of people give my clerics/fvs pots/plat/scrolls ect....And I give these things out to other players as well...it surely does happen, and often. Why so hostile?


And do you really consider wands to be a significant expense? I roll up toons on different servers with no other chars to get money from and by the time I am lvl 5 or so I always have many more then I could ever use in any quest or chain of quests with ease, and without farming....they are MUCH cheaper then potions.

In fact I spend far more on my few characters that cant self-heal/buff with anything but pots then I ever do on my chars that cast spells/umd/ ect. And thats before factoring in what I spend on wands/scrolls/plat after the quest to give to clrs/fvs.

Every player that pulls their weight has expenses in consumables. And such expenses are easily sustainable. Suck it up buttercup?

The whole "Take care of yourself" idea in regards to even having/being a divine caster in the group isnt even about the cost of minor things like wands and scrolls, the real expenses of being a caster dont even come into play until high level elite raids where it becomes somewhat reasonable to expect to use some pots. Its more an issue of not wanting to spend your entire playtime in a cycle of only watching red bars constantly in and out of combat and not being able to use your divine caster to its full potential because players dont even try to help themselves and are making you the divine caster operate in a manner thats less efficiant then if the group realized that survival is every player's responsibility.

For instance I dislike having to worry about peoples health OUTSIDE of combat because when I am doing that, it affects my ability to be proactive with my spells as I am tied to being within casting range of whoever is hurt which means that I will probably have to heal more in the next fight then I would have if I could have been out front using my toolset effectively.

[Khimberlhyte]

Er I've had plenty of people give my clerics/fvs pots/plat/scrolls ect....And I give these things out to other players as well...it surely does happen, and often. Why so hostile?

Maybe at higher levels or other servers, but it is pretty rare on Orien at low-mid levels. Hostility comes from dealing with other people's unrealistic expectations, who throw out weak arguments about their repair costs, and who have never played a cleric. It makes the game a lot less fun to play with those people. I enjoy keeping a group up in a tough spot, but hate the endless demands on resources - especially when it comes from people who do little to help themselves. The poster to whom I was responding sounds like the stereotypical bad player that I all too frequently meet in a nightmare PuG.

Every player that pulls their weight has expenses in consumables. And such expenses are easily sustainable. Suck it up buttercup?

No other player class is commonly expected to buy consumables for others. I have only had > 100k gold twice. The first time I bought a medium collectables bag for >80k gold. Another 20k or so on my second bank slot. I'm now buying 20-80k items weekly on the auction house, trying to keep my gear up to snuff. Then there is that fifth inventory slot which needs a portable hole, so 500k gold total unless I get lucky and loot one soon.

At level 11, I could easily spend 20k gold on CMW or CSW wands in an evening if that is what I relied upon to top people up between fights. With my abysmal haggle skill, consumables would consume much of my proceeds from selling loot to brokers and AH.

The whole "Take care of yourself" idea in regards to even having/being a divine caster in the group isnt even about the cost of minor things like wands and scrolls, the real expenses of being a caster dont even come into play until high level elite raids where it becomes somewhat reasonable to expect to use some pots. Its more an issue of not wanting to spend your entire playtime in a cycle of only watching red bars constantly in and out of combat and not being able to use your divine caster to its full potential because players dont even try to help themselves and are making you the divine caster operate in a manner thats less efficiant then if the group realized that survival is every player's responsibility.

For instance I dislike having to worry about peoples health OUTSIDE of combat because when I am doing that, it affects my ability to be proactive with my spells as I am tied to being within casting range of whoever is hurt which means that I will probably have to heal more in the next fight then I would have if I could have been out front using my toolset effectively.

I would submit that there are multiple reasons for "Take care of yourself". When I show up for my first run in the desert and find that 3 party members don't even have disease immunity items, or poison / blindness / curse / lesser restoration pots, I agree, it gets a little frustrating. As does wasting SP spamming heals because the person in front is too lazy or stupid to watch the blue dots spreading across the map as they get hit and dragged down by the mobs (s)he ran past - mobs that the full group could easily dispatch without taking much damage.

[systemstate]

I normally don't mind using heal wands at all. As a matter of fact, I prefer to use them for the first several minutes of a quest at least. Gives me time to see whose red bar needs the most baby sitting before blowing all my sp on other things.

Wands allow me to preserve my sp for times when I really need to dish out the heals. I also like the wand for those potential party-wipe moments. I can cast a heal spell, immediately followed by a wand-based heal since they recharge separately. I can heal nearly twice as fast this way if needed.

1500pp for three mod heal wands last me for several quests usually. For me, it's not a big deal- that's just how I choose to play a cleric. Personally, there's no worse feeling than running out of sp and consequently not being able to rez someone.

I also never considered it to be subsidizing other players. I just consider it supporting my style of play. I must say though, it does get a little annoying when I see someone pick up a 5-pack of heal pots from a broken barrel and then never use them. Then again, maybe they just know I'm going to take good care of them.

More often than not, I get compliments from other players: "Great job with the heals! ; Way to go cleric! ; Saved us from a wipe there."

These compliments far outweigh the small amount of plat it costs me to maintain a steady supply of heal wands.

One last note- Warforged: if you have made the investment in the Healer's Friend enhancements, I am more than happy to invest in keeping you healed!

[SaisMatters]

I've played my Healer for over three years. It was the first character I built. Why? because I knew a healer would be the easiest class for me to get into groups with.
I heal! Why? Because THATS MY JOB!!!!
If I want to tank, I log onto my fighters. If I want to cast songs and spells, I log onto my bards and casters. If I want to pick locks and disable traps, I log onto my rogue. If I want to suck, I log onto my monk!(jk)
Clerics have always been and always will be the primary healing class!!!
As for wasting resourses, meh, most of MY resources are GIVEN to me by appreciative players(whom I always thank). So I'll gladly spend them keeping them alive, cause I know, if they go down, I'm likely next!

[vhortex]

No you don't. Anyone who can use a wand, should. Anyone who can't should buy one for someone else to use on them. Otherwise, no wand healing.

You may think you "have to", but so what?

yes, when playing my warforge, i carry a repair moderate and a cure serious wand.. sometimes more if my cash will allow me and give them to any who are capable to cast it on me.

no problem what so ever with people on a party since getting donations for my warforge (wands only) are coming without even asking. lots of good players are very helpful when they spot you as trying to be self sufficient.

my pallies and ranger always have at least 4 wands to heal myself. 4 moderate and 2 serious healing (serious healing when i am with a lvl 14+ group)

like the person i quoted.. if i can dish out the burden from the healer to heal me. i always do so he/she can drop some spells or melee if he/she wants to

[dkrypt]

When it's a good time to heal, then heal. Do other useful things the rest of the time.

[Khimberlhyte]

One last note- Warforged: if you have made the investment in the Healer's Friend enhancements, I am more than happy to invest in keeping you healed!

Going way offtopic, I don't understand the WF hate that I have sometimes seen. In one recent group, I asked to invite a WF barb guildmate to fill the empty sixth slot. Some party members complained about WF barbs being mana sinks, worst characters in the game, hated, etc. Whatever.

We had finished our run and they sent him an invite. Good thing, as I would have left and joined up with the WF had they not sent him an invite, and it was a decent group apart from that and one other minor issue.

On our next run, the WF required less of my SP than any other player - around a quarter of the person who was complaining about WF barbs. Go figure. I could almost ignore his HP bar in combat as it slowly dropped, knowing that I could hit him at 1/4 of his bar with one SP efficient Heal, rather than the constant CMW and CSW that the fleshy melee characters needed.

[Orratti]

The truth is that healers get tired of being in **** groups then getting blamed for their deaths. You will see that in all the posts. Every healer type says it clearly. I will spend my plat on wands to heal a good group but if you aren't playing well you're on your own. That is what you can read from these posts. Everyone can tell when they are in a bad group. People are dropping left and right, you get a party wipe and have to reenter, there are people all over the place, you name it. Then the blame start getting thrown and it usually gets flung in a single direction- the healer. The reaction for this is simple, start being a **** as a healer and that becomes the rhetoric you are having a problem with. How is a healer to know that if he simply kept your uber self alive you both could duo the quest while carrying everyone else's worthless stones around. From where he is standing the whole group looks fubar. Not to mention that some folks are just learning how to play the class. Healer is a key role in every group. I have played most of the classes and the most challenging is the healer. It can be easy in some groups and near impossible in others.

Playing melee I only need to focus on one red bar, my own,that goes for arcane caster as well. Killing the enemy I don't need to pay attention to their bars at all I just need to know which one is going to hurt the party the most and take that one down first. If the melee and the casters are doing their job well the healer will have an easy time doing his and for that matter if the rest or the party is doing their job well then you really don't even need a healer most of the time. If I'm playing a ranger, bard, or other devine wand user I'll be watching everyone's life bars but if I fail I don't get insulted ever. I get "well you did your best, after all you aren't a REAL healer" then the group looks for a cleric or FvS to fill the role.

Someone pointed out that this argument has been going on for four years. Really this isn't an argument at all. What this is is a bunch of people who are really tired of getting treated poorly for trying to play a class of character that everyone needs and isn't always easy to play. Guild clerics aren't guild because their runs are always smooth or sucessful. They are guild because they aren't going to get all the blame for a failure. A guild will discuss ways of overcoming the failure, change tactics and try again. A pug will throw some blame around and then disband.

[systemstate]

Going way offtopic, I don't understand the WF hate that I have sometimes seen. In one recent group, I asked to invite a WF barb guildmate to fill the empty sixth slot. Some party members complained about WF barbs being mana sinks, worst characters in the game, hated, etc. Whatever.

We had finished our run and they sent him an invite. Good thing, as I would have left and joined up with the WF had they not sent him an invite, and it was a decent group apart from that and one other minor issue.

On our next run, the WF required less of my SP than any other player - around a quarter of the person who was complaining about WF barbs. Go figure. I could almost ignore his HP bar in combat as it slowly dropped, knowing that I could hit him at 1/4 of his bar with one SP efficient Heal, rather than the constant CMW and CSW that the fleshy melee characters needed.

I have had similar experiences with WF. I often find myself blowing my sp on the poisoned, diseased, or just generally damaged fleshies while the WF of the group are still going strong. There have been occasions where the lone warforged fended of the angry mobs alone to give me time to rez/cure disease/cure blind/restore the rest of the group.

[Yagi]

No other player class is commonly expected to buy consumables for others. I have only had > 100k gold twice. The first time I bought a medium collectables bag for >80k gold. Another 20k or so on my second bank slot. I'm now buying 20-80k items weekly on the auction house, trying to keep my gear up to snuff. Then there is that fifth inventory slot which needs a portable hole, so 500k gold total unless I get lucky and loot one soon.

On my non-umd/non-caster characters I use rage pots, barskins+3 (when applicable to the character) Shield of faith+3 (when applicable to the character) Heroism pots, Neut poison, resist pots, prot pots, all manner of cure ailments of course, and often haste pots and other utility potions. These all have short durations and must be reapplied frequently. And I use cure serious pots that cost me 90k gold a stack. I use all of these to operate at peak efficiency at all times, because I can not completely control the flow of combat when in a party.

When I am solo, I rarely use a fraction of what I use in a group, as I can engage in any tactic I wish at any time with no surprises.

Using resources for others doesnt always mean directly using them upon other players.

I'm not trying to say that Divine casters have it easier then any other class or anything, I run them too, I know what it costs on a good run and I know what it can cost on a bad run. But players that are striving to play to their full potential of any class are also spending their plats in quests, and they *could* do without and wait for somebody else to deal with their ailments for them or operate below peak efficiency and slow down the exp per minute of the group.
It can be a bit tough at first if this is your first character and dont know what to run to get item x or what is worth selling on the ah and what isnt ect, you should probably ignore most things on the AH and look at (and sell most items to) the brokers every day rather then having them sit on the auction doing nothing for you. Another thing to help make money is to uncheck the box in gameplay for end rewards being related to classes, this increases your chances to pull things that may sell well on the ah. And if you uncheck this box on your other lower characters as well, you can often pull sp pots to give to your divine.

Also dont buy a portable hole on the ah, you get one free with 75 agents of argonnessen favour by questing in gianthold.

[Khimberlhyte]

It can be a bit tough at first if this is your first character and dont know what to run to get item x or what is worth selling on the ah and what isnt ect, you should probably ignore most things on the AH and look at (and sell most items to) the brokers every day rather then having them sit on the auction doing nothing for you. Another thing to help make money is to uncheck the box in gameplay for end rewards being related to classes, this increases your chances to pull things that may sell well on the ah. And if you uncheck this box on your other lower characters as well, you can often pull sp pots to give to your divine.

Also dont buy a portable hole on the ah, you get one free with 75 agents of argonnessen favour by questing in gianthold.

Thanks for the advice, +rep. I don't like to spend much time on the AH (am really looking forward to the upcoming search feature), but when I want some gear for my character, well, it is only game money, and the character earned it

I'm not sure if I can hold out for the 75 argo favor - I am a bit of a pack-rat, and don't want to hit Gianthold too early - I might need that XP to get me through levels 14-17 without buying too many more packs.

[flynnjsw]

Well the debate will continue since Domains aren't coming any time soon...

[Gunga]

butt

Nice new sig, man. I like that.

[alcmaeon]

My goodness the selfishness of so many posters. This thread could in fact be a billboard for why not to PUG. The stupidity of it all......

how about an AMEN for that.

[Khimberlhyte]

how about an AMEN for that.

This is the weekly BYOH thread. It might be a little late coming, hence the increased participation. There are more pent up feelings that require venting.

I'm eagerly awaiting the weekly Battle Cleric thread - we need another one soon, because the 50,000 existing threads haven't flogged that horse enough yet either. Never have, never will - those topics are gifts that keep on giving.

[Phidius]

I haven't seen an Auction House price gouging complaint in a while, either... or did I just miss it while I was out of town?