Pls drop the heal yourself rhetoric.

[AylinIsAwesome]

When I'm on either of my two Favoured Souls in PuGs I use my blue bar to heal. It's there to help me complete the quest, and generally speaking the more people alive the better our chances. (Some exceptions, like the 6 CON Elven Wizard I ran with earlier today, do exist).

But I never start throwing plat at a quest I'm PuGing.

When I'm on one of my 8 non-Favoured Souls, and I'm pugging I don't expect the Cleric, Favoured Soul or Bard to throw plat at the quest either. Once the blue bar is gone, it's gone to me. But I always expect them to heal the party. Though I always prefer it if they'd also beat stuff down in melee, or do some crowd control and throw out some Blade Barriers as well.

[Orratti]

As a cleric I will do everything possible to keep a party alive, use wand, sp pots, blue bar the whole nine yards but if you are determined to die I promise that I can't stop you. I will also do this on a ranger, a bard, a pally or any character that can swing a wand. If I am playing a warforged I will either be a caster who can heal themselves or carry a stock of a hundred repair pots that I will replace as I use them. If you aren't doing everything you can to help out with healing, damage or aggro control then truly you are the one who isn't a team player. Talking about how awesome your kill count is and how everybody should keep you alive because you are the man shows this excellently. Saying things like "you" clerics and favored souls shows that you don't play one. Once you pug one to cap then you can talk about what is rediculous.

It isn't easy keeping a party up. It's not one person's responsibility to ensure the survival of the group it's the group's responsibility. You CAN'T heal stupid, I know, I've tried. I will go along with a party and do what I can but when I see it isn't going to work I make my apologies and move on. Most of the time you can blame a party wipe on one person, the guy in the front. Most of the time that guy is a melee. Sometimes it is the healer that is responsible. Sometimes it is the whole group. I don't spend my time throwing out blame. I either stick it out or move on. Do your part to stay alive, after all if you die it IS your fault. Either for using bad tactics, for relying too heavily on someone that it turns out you can't rely on, or for getting in over your head.

[Baloran]

I don't know about lvl 10+, but in the lower levels, where clerics do not have blade barrier or comparable damage spells, I think the group benefits much more from the cleric who keeps the raging THF power attacking frenzy barbarian alive with heals than from the meleeing cleric who expects the barbarian to be self sufficient during the fight. Sure, the cleric can burn some sp on command or hold person, but at low levels the said raging Barabrian will take the enemy down in two-three hits, and will only lose a few hit points, which are in the end cheaper to heal (sp wise).

Expecting the melees to drink pots during the fights will severly decrease the damage per second. If for example a lvl 6 barbarian with normal gear (i.e. +2 keen greataxe) has to drink two pots of cure serious during the fight, he will lose about 3-5 swings (just guessing, don't know how much attacks you lose), dealing an average of at ~40 points of damage per attack. That would be 120-200 points of damage not dealt. The cleric would have to cast only one cure serious spell for roughly the same amount of healing (healing enhancements, devotion item), costing 20 sp. What can a lvl 6 cleric do with these 20 sp which will benefit the party more than healing the mentioned barbarian, effectively dealing 120-200 points of damage with his cure serious spell?

Healing between fights is a different story. But please consider that some classes cannot use wands. Healing with wands between fights is much cheaper than drinking cure pots, especially if you consider the scroll/wand enhancements. So in my eyes it is unfair to say to the melee: I expect you to do the dps and get hurt badly and heal yourself with healing pots which cost you 5000 platinum for one quest, whereas it would cost me only 500 platinum to give you the same amount of healing with my wand of cure moderate wounds.

Basically this means: I'm the cleric, I 'm to cheap to spend money on the quest (of course I will heal myself betweeen fights with my sp, no need to drink pots), but you are the fighter/barbarian, you will have to spend lots of money on pots.


That said, I usually buy cure wands with my barbarian and hand them over to the cleric to heal me between fights, but if the heals are not used up, I expect to get my wand back.

[Zachski]

By the way, to the person who said that it's the Cleric/FVS's duty to heal the Warforged, too...

Umm, wow, double-sided logic there. You said each character should do what they're best at.

Then you turn around and say that Wizards and Sorcerers, who are the BEST at healing Warforged, are strictly DPS, and that Clerics and FVS, who have the almighty Blade Barrier and are essentially divine versions of Wizards and Sorcerers, are more or less limited to healing with some DPS here and there.

Oh, but we can't cut into the Sorcerer's or Wizard's precious SP, nooo... meanwhile, the Cleric's and FVS's SP are the property of everyone but the Cleric and FVS.

Hypocrite much? If you expect the Clerics and FVSes to heal people, then I expect the Sorcerers and Wizards to heal Warforged. Heaven knows they'd only have a FRACTION of the load unless the entire party is Warforged.

Just like the Cure-series spells are a staple of the Cleric, I suggest that all Wizards scribe Repair spells and all Sorcerers have at least one high level repair spell just for situations where there's a Warforged in the party.

For the record, no one's asking that a Barbarian with no UMD heals himself with a wand. All they're asking is "If you want to get special healing, give me a wand rather than make me buy one". If you have the UMD to use a wand, use it yourself, because you can.

You have to be self-sufficient before you can be of use to a party. Heck, that's how teams work PERIOD. If you can't take care of yourself, then you're nothing more than a burden to any team.

Oh, and the moment a Cleric or FVS chugs an SP pot, their SP is no longer a "free resource".

[GhoulsTouch]

I just ran with a group who just couldnt keep together with my pure cleric. I was running all over trying to keep everyone on their feet as the spawn scattered them every which way. I had to fight their leftovers to get to them so I myself wouldnt be overwhelmed. And when the smoke clears only one barbarian is left pushing daisies. "Healer!" he said "*** why didn't you heal."

I had healed him on several passes trying to get in the line of sight of others to heal them and explained to him that I was healing everybody. I am not going to let four people die while focusing on just one. Sorry, I didnt mean to waste my time on spoiled brats. "No you didn't he said". At that I left him to rot, I dont mind healing people who are struggling but I am not going to waste my time with people like that. Just because I wasnt keeping him at full hp while trying to keep everyone else alive doesnt mean I wasnt healing.

So I have to heal everyone including myself while involved in combat and get that kind of disrespect when you die like it's my fault?

Man up when you die. Blame the monster, trap or whatever not the healer. I watched these same people grab healing potions out of rubble and I didnt see a single one drink one. I pick them off the ground heal them a couple times and run off to the next and their health bars stayed the same! Then a minute or so goes by and they are dropping in hp again!

I went out on the same dungeon at lower levels with lower level people as the only healer and by staying together and knowing what we were doing (as a group) cleared that quest in half the time and resources without a single death.

I healed that guy for the last time needless to say.

[Ashiel_Dragmire]

You've not played a cleric much, eh? It shows. Lame argument - clerics face all of those same costs as well, having to buy components, pay for repairs, and buy overpriced Devotion items on the auction house every level or two. We also need weapons, armor, and other items, because most of us play solo too.

Played much? Nope. Tried it, wasn't for me. Lame argument? Sure. It was mostly in there to point out how ridiculous it is if people don't want to participate just because it costs in game money. I'm not saying that Clerics and FvS can only participate by healing, but when they are the two classes most capable of healing, I'd say that restoring the HP of party members is a large part of their participatory factor. If you're capable of casting non-heal spells that's all fine and good. If it makes more sense to SP wise to toss a Blade Barrier rather than a Heal, then by all means do it. It just seems like some of the pro-Self Sufficiency people here are anti-healing others.

Self-Sufficiency is a great thing that everyone should strive for. Like people said, if you can't take care of yourself you're not going to be helpful for long. But even the most self-sufficient people won't be able to take care of themselves as well as a dedicated healer could, unless of course said people are healers themselves. Unfortunately, especially around lower levels with no "rich uncle" toons to toss you a few thousand platinum at Lv 1 (or 4 for Vet), gathering more than a decent amount of Cure Potions/Repair Oils will be a difficult endeavor.

[CSFurious]

hirelings are actually getting better when it comes to healing so with the exception of endgame & raids you do not need a "healbot" to play this game at all

If a someone is playing a dedicated heal bot cleric, there is not a single other class that is more expensive. At the lower levels, the spell points that a cleric has is not enough to keep a party, that does nothing to help themselves, alive. So the cost for wands falls upon the cleric along with the cost for spell components and item/weapon repair. If you want to have a dedicated cleric to run with you, either roll one up yourself to see what it is like, or be willing to pony up some wands, mana pots, or plat to help out.

[CSFurious]

clerics with a clue want the frenzied berzerker in their party because they understand that as long as they support him, the quest will be a piece of cake

Oh don't get me wrong... I'll toss the occasional heal on that FB barb who is cruising through the dungeon while I remove casters on ledges and generally contribute in my own way.

[CSFurious]

if you have a wf barb or fighter in the party, it is more efficient for an arcane to heal

however, even the divine casters need to heal the wf especially if his dps is making the quest very easy and successful by quickly shredding the enemy with dps that few, if any, classes can match

no well played thf frenzied berzerker is a liability to any any party in this game, you should gladly heal them, even if you are a cleric/FvS, because they are currently the greatest sustainable dps in this game, and, therefore, are the most important member of the team

By the way, to the person who said that it's the Cleric/FVS's duty to heal the Warforged, too...

Umm, wow, double-sided logic there. You said each character should do what they're best at.

Then you turn around and say that Wizards and Sorcerers, who are the BEST at healing Warforged, are strictly DPS, and that Clerics and FVS, who have the almighty Blade Barrier and are essentially divine versions of Wizards and Sorcerers, are more or less limited to healing with some DPS here and there.

Oh, but we can't cut into the Sorcerer's or Wizard's precious SP, nooo... meanwhile, the Cleric's and FVS's SP are the property of everyone but the Cleric and FVS.

Hypocrite much? If you expect the Clerics and FVSes to heal people, then I expect the Sorcerers and Wizards to heal Warforged. Heaven knows they'd only have a FRACTION of the load unless the entire party is Warforged.

Just like the Cure-series spells are a staple of the Cleric, I suggest that all Wizards scribe Repair spells and all Sorcerers have at least one high level repair spell just for situations where there's a Warforged in the party.

For the record, no one's asking that a Barbarian with no UMD heals himself with a wand. All they're asking is "If you want to get special healing, give me a wand rather than make me buy one". If you have the UMD to use a wand, use it yourself, because you can.

You have to be self-sufficient before you can be of use to a party. Heck, that's how teams work PERIOD. If you can't take care of yourself, then you're nothing more than a burden to any team.

Oh, and the moment a Cleric or FVS chugs an SP pot, their SP is no longer a "free resource".

[kittikatgurl]

I feel a bit of an odd one out here. I agree with the original statement. I run a cleric, reincarnated at level 20. She is capable of well pretty much anything. She is well geared out with raid gear, and is working her way quite nicely through epic raids. She can offensive cast with the best of them and often does. But if I am in a party of dps, I am healbot. No questions asked. Mana bar? Often not run down by the shrine, as I alternate heal scrolls with mana. I carry at least 10 mana pots on me at any given time, many donated. I will spend no more than a couple of pots on a competent party and none on an incompentent one - unless someone offers to reinburse me. Often enough my pots and costs get covered without me even asking.

I play my cleric well and I love playing her. So much so that I rolled a FvS healbot to do the same job with a larger mana pool. I finance these toons through my other players, and I agree, I would love to have someone healing for my ranger or my dps bard even close to the way i cleric. I have had many good healers, but equally many who do not care for the party at all. Why roll a cleric if you don't plan on healing. My first toon was my cleric (gimped but now reincarnated to a decent build) and I realised early on that it would be an expensive class, that never stopped me playing it and the friends I have made make it worthwhile.

[bcgone]

LOL. If you are genuinely suggesting clerics should wand whip yeah do your server a favor and uninstall.

Can I get an AMEN brother.

To each his own. However, I dont heal bad pugs anymore unless I see some serious effort to use good battle tactics. The minute 3 tanks head in 3 directions and all end up at 5% health, I leave the group. Its not about mana and scrolls, its about wasting time and resources with players that dont understand the benefits of smooth fast runs. Just my 2 cents.

[Anderei]

Points as far as I see:

* Every non-newbie player should have remove blindness/disease/curse/posion/lesser restore with them, no need to rely on a cleric for that. And time wasted on party chat (this or that pleeeas)

* Exepcting the cleric/fvs to throw in a ton of pots/scrolls/wands is bad, why should playing a devine be more expensive than any other toon, when the blue bar is up its up, and its likely used up because of some error(s) (either by the party or the devine)

* However (as recently discussed somewhere else), an evoker cleric that outright refuses to use his blue bar to heal others, because "everbody has to be his own house", "becase we're all elite", is an uneffectivly used party slot, since an arcane with the same level in the slot could do better in DPS (firewall > bladebarrier), in one-shotting (Banshee > Destruct) or CC (mass hold > greater command) etc.

[Khimberlhyte]

Played much? Nope. Tried it, wasn't for me. Lame argument? Sure. It was mostly in there to point out how ridiculous it is if people don't want to participate just because it costs in game money.

There is a difference between participating and subsidizing you, a distinction that appears to escape you. Participating means using my blue bar. Subsidizing you means using consumables that cost me money. I always participate, but I will never subsidize you. For a change, why don't you try naming another class besides clerics that is expected to buy expensive consumables ($wands >>> $tools or components) that only benefit other party members? Can't do it, can you?

[Tarackian]

My goodness the selfishness of so many posters. This thread could in fact be a billboard for why not to PUG. The stupidity of it all......

[Arlith]

Oh ye of little sense! Know that of which you speak before offending others. Clerics and FvS are not your nanny's. You pigeon hole them into a single role, much like others and I can assume you might do with rogues. Clerics and FvS can be extremely effective crowd control and melee characters. Sometimes even the best offense is controlling mobs and not having to heal you. Is healing what clerics and FvS do inherently extremely well? Yes of course it is. Is it the only thing the can or will do? Absolutely not!!! If you haven't already, I highly suggest you try one then get back to us.

No doubt. But you know, when people put up an LFM for a Cleric/FvS and there is no "be self sufficient" or "BYoH" in the LFM then odds are they expect a healer. If you join be prepared to heal or explain that you do not heal, you are melee or CC and then let the party decide if you are a fit for their group. If they decline your obviously uber presence, bow out with grace. Don't get all high and mighty, put on your best jack assery hat and come in the forums to gripe about sub-standard toons. Same goes for whiney ass casters and haste. Get over yourself.

What I don't understand is why clerics/FvS with this attitude group at all. Obviously they need nothing from anyone. So the only reason I can see why they group at all is so they can post carp like this in the forums.

As for everyone else, don't worry about this junk. These guys are more prick than elitist.

[Arlith]

I just ran with a group who just couldnt keep together with my pure cleric. I was running all over trying to keep everyone on their feet as the spawn scattered them every which way. I had to fight their leftovers to get to them so I myself wouldnt be overwhelmed. And when the smoke clears only one barbarian is left pushing daisies. "Healer!" he said "*** why didn't you heal."

This has nothing to do with being self sufficient. This is all stupid play. Someone like that barb could have all the pots/wands/scrolls/healers in the world and still die. Parties like this have problems that have nothing to do with healing. But sometimes, a good healer can bring a party like this back from the brink. Explain that you aren't going to run around like a chicken with your head cut off giving out heals. Most players with more than one brain cell will realize after a death or two that they need to stay in sight of the healer. If they don't then the problem has nothing to do with their pots or your mana, they are just oxygen thieves. Darwinian rejects that our over tolerant society has allowed to fumble their way to young adulthood and further contaminate our genepool.

[Bufo_Alvarius]

There is a difference between participating and subsidizing you, a distinction that appears to escape you. Participating means using my blue bar. Subsidizing you means using consumables that cost me money. I always participate, but I will never subsidize you. For a change, why don't you try naming another class besides clerics that is expected to buy expensive consumables ($wands >>> $tools or components) that only benefit other party members? Can't do it, can you?

LOL, how many wands/pots/scrolls can you buy for 1 metalline of pure good weapon? I sure didnt buy those weapons for ME. I only ever use them for the group. Yet i still fork over plat/pots etc all the time.

Easiest to get a group with, Easiest to get a guild with, and defining factor in party success. Needed in all high lvl quests. Can solo anything. You poor, poor clerics, whatever will you do? It must be sooo hard farming larges in amrath solo? Too bad all that solo loot you get over melee cant buy you consumables huh?

[Timjc86]

if you have a wf barb or fighter in the party, it is more efficient for an arcane to heal

however, even the divine casters need to heal the wf especially if his dps is making the quest very easy and successful by quickly shredding the enemy with dps that few, if any, classes can match

no well played thf frenzied berzerker is a liability to any any party in this game, you should gladly heal them, even if you are a cleric/FvS, because they are currently the greatest sustainable dps in this game, and, therefore, are the most important member of the team

Especially if they have an epic SoS. It's pretty crazy.

[Phidius]

Oh, good... this thread is still here. I was afraid it would have died out before I got a chance to contribute

"Must be self-efficient"

I have never felt the need to put that in an LFM.

The message it conveys is:

"I can heal myself. I hope you can heal yourself. If you can not heal yourself do not expect me to for I am not a team-player."

I find it much easier to just use "BYOH".

I don't know about lvl 10+, but in the lower levels, where clerics do not have blade barrier or comparable damage spells, I think the group benefits much more from the cleric who keeps the raging THF power attacking frenzy barbarian alive with heals than from the meleeing cleric who expects the barbarian to be self sufficient during the fight...

I can't think of anything in the lower levels that "needs" a highly specialized DPS toon to complete. I've never gotten my barbarians past level 6, for example.

On the other hand, I've found that at the lower levels, avoiding damage is better than uber DPS.

...No matter how awesome you think your Battle Cleric build may be, you're not even close to what a Fighter or Barbarian could do with that gear at high levels...

Yeah - they can die. I've seen a Barbarian boast about how fast he can pull aggro from the WF Titan in the Weapon Shipment. Too bad he didn't come to an understanding with the cleric ahead of time.

If you need a dedicated healer in a quest like the Weapon Shipment, you should either rethink the class you've chosen to play, or revamp your playing style.

I have no problem taking on the role of the dedicated healer on any of my toons when the situation calls for it. However, those times are much rarer than many people realize.

There is a difference between participating and subsidizing you, a distinction that appears to escape you. Participating means using my blue bar. Subsidizing you means using consumables that cost me money. I always participate, but I will never subsidize you. For a change, why don't you try naming another class besides clerics that is expected to buy expensive consumables ($wands >>> $tools or components) that only benefit other party members? Can't do it, can you?

LOL, how many wands/pots/scrolls can you buy for 1 metalline of pure good weapon? I sure didnt buy those weapons for ME. I only ever use them for the group. Yet i still fork over plat/pots etc all the time.

You use up an entire Metalline of Pure Good weapon in one quest? Wow... you should consider binding them - they last much longer that way.

[Hellllboy]

OMG!

How many times are we going to rehash this subject?!?

Is it the Clerics job to heal? Is it the FvS job to heal?

Yes & No

This complaining about "you wont heal me" or "im a battle Cleric I don’t have to heal people" or "im not spec'd out to heal" gets so very old after 4 years.

What ever happened to a party working as a team and doing what is necessary to complete common goals? When did an individual become more important than the group that is participating in a quest?

Why can't a Cleric or a FvS do both-fight and heal? The contribution they bring to a battle field could save a great deal of hit points in damage sustained by a melee class. The healing they can drop while in combat can substantially turn the tide of a battle in the groups favor.

If a Cleric or FvS has any experience playing this class (with exception of a few unique builds) they should be able to do both-in fact-I find that playing either class and not doing both is rather boring.