Pls drop the heal yourself rhetoric.

[Mentor61]

My point is:
clerics are reduced to pure healbots in epic unless they are melee specced.

Amrath may or may not be the endgame but there is little reason to repeat those quests. 1 time on normal/hard for flagging, 1 time on elite for Yugoloth favor and you are done. But the epic content has to be beaten over and over again until you get desired seals and shards. 99% of his time my capped cleric spends in raids and epics. No place for offensive casting there.

very true dat.And it also get expensive in a hurry if things go pear shaped

[Angar]

Angar, once again you seem to be reading more into my post that what I am saying.

When mentoring one new to the game, yes, it is better to start on a simple melee, or a less offensive cleric. But I always demonstrate that a cleric is more than just healing the red bars. Especially in a pug group you actually spend less manna healing if you use the cleric capabilities to the full. With a simple tower shield and a holy smite you can act like an intim and save the bbn a hole lot of damage... you can greater cmd a large number of mobs, sound burst, so on and so forth. And yes, I demonstrate this to new players on a cleric and show how they can make grouping in pugs more enjoyable. And with that "simple" melee... the addition of one Rog level in a Ranger makes that ranger more versatile and IS easily managed by a person new to the game.

I never advocated that everyone play exotic hybrids. I am simply arguing against the Clerics/FvS heal-bot mantra that is being espoused in this thread. My advocating against pigeon holing the divines is not the same as saying that a fighter has to be a primary healer. (Though I have seen a dragon marked halfling paladin-fighter play that role.)

The game design and mechanics allow for a great variety of builds and game play. I love that about the game and try to share that great feature with new people. The point is to have fun, isn't it? So, I say to them have fun. Explore. Try new things. At the same time, this is what will be expect of you in X raid. If you are a melee FvS and are join a raid asking for a healer type either you accept that limitation for that run, or don't join the lfm. But that is a lot different that saying, FvS shouldn't be melee. Nor is it necessary to limit new players to the "basics" because they are not experienced.

I see what you are saying, and I agree that one of the draws of this game is the ability to play each class in multiple ways. I have met some players who can do amazing things with oddball builds that blows me away. It is certainly one of the reasons that so many players have stuck around even after running the quests to death.

This thread was directed at situations where you are not grouped with guild or with friends, which means PUGs. When you are dealing with PUGs, you are typically dealing with the 80% of new players who have probably not mastered a simple fighter or caster. My only real point here is that while there is a variety of ways to play the game once you really understand the way the game works, the simplest way to play is the old standby of a Melee, a Caster, and a Healer, then fill the rest of the group however you want. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with this idea, and it happens to work.

On top of this, because it is the simplest and most effective way to put together a group, when the group is looking for a healer, they are looking for the stereotypical healer, not a hybrid, cross class, or multi-class toon. It is widely accepted that since Clerics and Favored Souls are the best healers in the game, hands down, then it should go without saying that any LFM with only a cleric/FVS in the class selection is looking for a healer.

There is no reason anybody should get offended by this. If you choose to play your toon outside the general stereotype, just accept that joining a PUG will probably cause a problem, particularly if that PUG is looking for a specific class. It isn't hard to send a tell to the party leader asking if it is OK to have a caster who doesn't buff or haste, or a cleric who prefers to melee and will only heal if the party is about to wipe because of a lack of healing. Some people are OK with this, and some are not. It is best to make sure before it turns into an argument of whether all players should be self sufficient or be babysat by the cleric (or whether casters should have firewall and haste).

There will always be idiots out there who really think the world revolves around them, and hopefully these players will not discourage clerics from continuing to take on the role of healer. The door swings both ways, however, and a cleric who gets offended at being asked to heal is just as bad as a melee who expects the cleric to keep him alive when he zergs ahead into a crowd of mobs.

[Chai]

The point being, in WoW, the priest class was balanced for solo, party, or pvp play, both as a caster and a healer. Sure a priest couldn't melee, but the game was setup in such a way that they didn't need to. In DDO, everything you give to a class is taking away from something else. If you spec a cleric to be exceptional at offensive spells, he will still be an adequate healer, but only because the best non-cleric-or-fvs doesnt have nearly the capacity for healing as a poorly specced cleric. If you spec that cleric for melee, you are giving up so much wisdom that your offensive spells will be tough to land. You can spec him to be exceptional at healing, but then he will suck at melee and not be very solo friendly. And, of course, there is no PvP balance to speak of.. clerics are good against some classes and not so much against others. Yes, when you get into extremes, WoW was very generic in build options, but any class could effectively play the game as a solo player, party player, or in pvp. The same thing can not be said for DDO.

In DDO, you can make any class exceptional at what it does normally, and sometimes you can make them do things very well that are secondary to that class, but you can't make them exceptional at something outside the primary or secondary roles of that class. There are a few multi or cross classed toons that can excel in one given aspect of the game, and good players can find a synergy that works with other players to form well balanced groups with an odd assortment of classes, but there is only ONE combination of classes/roles that works every time, in every quest. That is healer/melee/caster/maybe rogue. Stick to that and you can do ANY quest or raid. The only thing that changes is how many of each you might need.

Yes, you can make classes work in this game for most anything, but you can't make a wiz cast divine buffs and drop mass heals on a group, you can't make a fighter who is exceptional at melee dps and still able to do all the arcane buffs and cast AoE DoTs, and you can't replace a cleric or FVS as the best healer in the game.

What you can do is learn the game well enough, and build toons with the right equipment so you can do things without all the benefits of a well rounded group. There is nothing you can say, or any comparison you can make to another game, however, that is going to make me substitute a wizard as a healer in an epic von, or put a cleric as a main tank in a hound. There are some things you might be able to get away with in a guild group, but a group looking for a healer is a group looking for a cleric or favored soul. Simple as that.

You are still trying to pidgeonhole a cleric as a healer only. If you stop looking at a divine caster as a mere healtard / possible nuker, you see the full potential DnD offers that WOW, EQ, LOTRO, and all the other cookie cutter class role games do not. A divine caster icon in the group panel doesnt mean healbot as a role.

None of these extreme examples even prove what what was being said earlier in either direction. What I was arguing for, is that divine casters are MORE versitile in DDO than a cookie cutter game like WOW. No one expects a melee to buff or a wizard to cast divine buffs. What I am saying is you are not pigeonholed into having to take certain abilities and can build your own toon, rather than look at 3 spec charts and decide if you want to be a shadow priest for damage, a holy for heals, or a discipline for PVP. In PnP DnD, a divine CAN actually cast arcane spells depending on which domains they posess, and a wiz can cast a spell that will allow him to replicate any other spell in the game of that level or lower, both divine or arcane.

You would never see anything intelligently thought out class wise like the exploiter build in WOW or another cookie cutter MMO. Its not possible, as you have a chart you can pick from, and if the skill you want is not on that chart, tough. Roll up the class that has it.

There are fighters in DDO that run around with full on UMD to 40 and use heal scrolls and healing amplification to heal themselves in battle when needed. You dont find this anywhere else.

You can usually tell how dynamic an MMO is going to be by the diversity of its speciality classes (rogues, bards, rangers, etc.) There will always be tanks, healers, and nukers / DPS role based classes. For those of us who think outside the box, and want to play something else, what is there? EQ had enchanters and bards, which were both fun. What does WOW have... Sheep, sheep again pls, keep him sheeped. Now sap the other one pls...lawls. You are either dps, healtard, or tank in WOW, period. /sleep

In DnD, rogues remove traps, pick locks, move through traps to disarm them, swim through obsticle courses to obtain needed items, UMD scrolls for buffs, wands for heals, scrolls for reses etc., assassinate, sneak attack, bluff,

In WOW, rogues are a melee dps class, a stun locking device, and nothing more. They pop a chest in a dungeon every once in a great while, but they arent anywhere near as dynamic as DnD rogues. They also are an un-needed class. I have been on alot of raids in WOW over the time I played where rogue wasnt even on the LFM list. They are out DPS'd by hunters who dont have to stand dangerously close to raid bosses, and outlived by the plate wearing tanks who are up there DPSing with them, and the dps fighters and pallys are putting the same dps down as a rogue can and needing less heals.

[Eladiun]

I've tried to stay out of this thread but I'm bored and it's Friday... This is the ultimate troll topic and this same topic has thousands of treads going to back before launch. I just came back to the game in January after a year or so hiatus but my opinions on this topic are well documented in previous threads. (I'll ignore FvS because I haven't been back long enough to have an opinion nor have I unlocked one yet. My only observation from what I have seen so far they can heal as well as Clerics.) I hate Battle Clerics...sorry I just do. You may be the best Battle Cleric ever but I find 1 out of 10 is actual good enough to handle both roles (The main problem with a Battle Cleric is melee rage or zerger focus. You get so absorbed in the fight that your not watching your party's status and people start dropping. It happens to all melees the red numbers are hypnotic...) and I don't think those odds are worth it. If I want a melee for my party I have much better choices than a melee Cleric. (Please note: I have no issue with offensive casting Clerics as long as they don't refuse to heal anyone which is a different story altogether. A well built Cleric has enough mana for both and as others have pointed out sometimes spending mana offensively is the best way to save it.) A good Cleric is a shepherd who is tending his sheep...

Angar makes a great point the biggest difficulties arrive when you are not honest with a party about your desire to not heal or you join a group that is looking for a last spot healer and obviously expecting someone who is going to fill that role. If your build is great have the courage of your convictions...tell the party what you are. If you get das boot you get das boot...if you really are that good you will build a reputation. It's no different than a rogue with a junk disarm filling the last spot in a trap heavy quest and complaining that people are pigeon holing his build when he blows all the traps.

Now on the topic of self-sufficiency...there is no valid excuse not to be self sufficient. I'm your shepherd not your mommy and your piggy bank rolled into one. The carry infinite wands and scrolls jive is bunk. It may be free to play now but I'm not paying your way. Yes, every class has associated cost but some player expectations are a bit out of wack in terms of what clerics should carry. Self-sufficiency means carrying your own weight. I'm not asking everyone to heal but have wands if you can use them. That way if the cleric gets incapped you can get him up or if the %$%& hits the fan you can help. I always have wands on my capable characters so I can top myself when zerging or chip in when necessary if they are too expensive for you why do you expect the Cleric to have an infinite supply .You should not run a whole dungeon with a party hat because you have no remove pots. You should not stand there sizzling because you have no resist pots. I don't expect a 400 point tank to heal himself with pots but to be able to pop one in a pinch....there is no reason to have no pots. Especially if you plan on running around corners and zerging out of my line of site. At minimum carry the 5 resists, lesser restore, the remove set, and cure pots...20 of each will not bankrupt you or cripple your inventory. This is never a problem with good/great players...the guys topping the kill counts in high level content or leading great raids always have a stocked medicine cabinet. It isn't all about leet gearz cheap gearz is just as important. Learn by example...

/rant off

[Fenrisulven6]

breaks crate

out falls potion of clw

watches as 5 toons without pots race by....

[JasonJi72]

Wow, I thought this post would have died by now. I'm on vacation in Vegas, taking a break from the tables to see what is going on back 'home'.

I posted this because there have been many posts about people needing to rely solely on themselves, and not to rely on the healer. Trust me, I am all for self reliance where it is feasable. When I play a non-cleric, I would much rather spend plat than take away from the divine spell pool because there are many other sweet spells there other than healing, and nothing compares to an amped up healing spell in the thick off a tough battle. Unfortunately, I have seen the non-healing attitude reflected in gameplay by a small minority, but it was enough to make me feel that the issue needed addressing.

Since I opened this post I have been told to uninstall the game to do everyone a favor, and that I did not understand the mechanics well enough to make any statement about healing. I do not feel it necessary to respond for the advancement of my argument, but I did not think it was appropriate to say such things.

The bottom line is that there have been passionate discussions from both sides. It seems to me that there is a certain cost associated with any quest. A warrior buys potions, and rogues bards mages and clerics buy scrolls and wands (with some base potions); this is the way of the world so to speak. Yes a barbarian should drink potions, but should he be expected to heal 450 hp with potions? Throw him a heal for crying out loud.

Good communication can save more mana than not healing, and healing spells are cheaper than raise and healing. Like I said in my original post "If a self-sufficient DPS character is filling the role of the primary healer with a divine caster in the party, there is a problem". If you play a divine caster that way, you will most likely make several 'friends lists'.

Now since I know nothing about the game, and should uninstall to save you all some headache, you can take my opinion with a grain of salt. It is however my opinion, and we all know what those smell like.

[Dragonhyde]

I have a suspicion that his concentration skill wasn't up to par or something. We were also on elite and they were getting hit hard and often. But yeah, if you are going to frontline as a cleric, and I am the dedicated healer of the group, I will assume you are going to be taking care of your own heals.

This reminds me of when I was leveling my casting cleric...did a run with a 2 meelee,2 mages and a "self proclaimed battle" cleric who told me right away that he doesnt heal stupid and that DVs are not worth taking because he can't use them on himself. And apparantly not healing stupid extended to himself because the battle cleric died every other fight. I get cussed out halfway through the quest because I filled the mana bar up on the wiz that was actually helping the group and killing stuff. Thats when I decided that even though people dont want to be pigeonholed by class then they should know enough about their strengths/weaknesses to play a class outside the box.

[Clay]

My point is:
clerics are reduced to pure healbots in epic unless they are melee specced.

Amrath may or may not be the endgame but there is little reason to repeat those quests. 1 time on normal/hard for flagging, 1 time on elite for Yugoloth favor and you are done. But the epic content has to be beaten over and over again until you get desired seals and shards. 99% of his time my capped cleric spends in raids and epics. No place for offensive casting there.

So, in a face-off in overtime in your end the defense-man is focused solely on defense therefore all coaches at all levels should teach all defense men to play defensively?

You are talking about one aspect of the game that a minority of the population will be playing to its full extent and yet you think that we should be teaching people new and old to build and play divine casters as a pure healbot because that is what happens in epic.

As well, have you considered, in OOB for example, having the Offensive FvS go in first, drop a BB and kite the room around while the rest of the party works on the mobs one at a time? I guarantee you you will use less healing power than if the fighter goes in first and the FvS just heals him.

Your point that in an Epic DQ2 my offensive FvS plays as a heal bot has nothing to do with my argument that FvS can and should be capable of doing more. The fact is my FvS can heal epic AND solo Amrath.

And really, I don't understand what it is about my posts that got your banties all in a punch but here are a couple more fallacies from your post:

Unless you have exploited the boots of anchoring you will always need to repeat the Amrath quests. That is repetition more than normal and elite. Unless you are a selfish prick and refuse to help a guildmate or friend through there you will repeat Amrath more than normal and elite. It is also a pretty nice way to make money. That is repetition more than normal and elite.

So, please clarify for me the errors in my position:

Clerics and Favored Souls can be more than just a heal bot. Threads preaching that they should stop offensive type casting are limiting the capabilities of the class(es) and would decrease their effectiveness in group play.

[Ashiel_Dragmire]

[WF Barb voice on]Me can answer that. Me take place of caster by hitting caster really hard. Caster fall down and me take his place. That how me get movie tickets without waiting in long line.

Also, Wiz and Sorc am good healer. Wiz and sorc heal me all the time and then me not hit them really hard. Cleric and FvS are pretty, but cleric whine too much when me get hurt.[/WF Barb voice]

Lol. That's all I've got to say about that.

[Clay]

My only real point here is that while there is a variety of ways to play the game once you really understand the way the game works, the simplest way to play is the old standby of a Melee, a Caster, and a Healer, then fill the rest of the group however you want. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with this idea, and it happens to work.

There is no reason anybody should get offended by this. If you choose to play your toon outside the general stereotype, just accept that joining a PUG will probably cause a problem, particularly if that PUG is looking for a specific class. It isn't hard to send a tell to the party leader asking if it is OK to have a caster who doesn't buff or haste, or a cleric who prefers to melee and will only heal if the party is about to wipe because of a lack of healing. Some people are OK with this, and some are not. It is best to make sure before it turns into an argument of whether all players should be self sufficient or be babysat by the cleric (or whether casters should have firewall and haste).

I don't entirely disagree with this, and perhaps it is just semantics but Clerics get some very useful spells that used by even low and mid levels. A group of level 5s going into Tangleroot will have a better run with a Clr using soundburst then a clr just healing.

[Krag]

So, in a face-off in overtime in your end the defense-man is focused solely on defense therefore all coaches at all levels should teach all defense men to play defensively?

You are talking about one aspect of the game that a minority of the population will be playing to its full extent and yet you think that we should be teaching people new and old to build and play divine casters as a pure healbot because that is what happens in epic.

As well, have you considered, in OOB for example, having the Offensive FvS go in first, drop a BB and kite the room around while the rest of the party works on the mobs one at a time? I guarantee you you will use less healing power than if the fighter goes in first and the FvS just heals him.

Your point that in an Epic DQ2 my offensive FvS plays as a heal bot has nothing to do with my argument that FvS can and should be capable of doing more. The fact is my FvS can heal epic AND solo Amrath.

And really, I don't understand what it is about my posts that got your banties all in a punch but here are a couple more fallacies from your post:

Unless you have exploited the boots of anchoring you will always need to repeat the Amrath quests. That is repetition more than normal and elite. Unless you are a selfish prick and refuse to help a guildmate or friend through there you will repeat Amrath more than normal and elite. It is also a pretty nice way to make money. That is repetition more than normal and elite.

So, please clarify for me the errors in my position:

Clerics and Favored Souls can be more than just a heal bot. Threads preaching that they should stop offensive type casting are limiting the capabilities of the class(es) and would decrease their effectiveness in group play.

I'm not denying that offensive spellcasting used to be helpful at lower levels.
I'm not trying to convince anyone to play pure healbots.

My intention is to share the disappointment. I've capped offensive cleric only to find out that regardless of the skill, gear or build all you can do in epic is watching the red bars.

[Yagi]

This reminds me of when I was leveling my casting cleric...did a run with a 2 meelee,2 mages and a "self proclaimed battle" cleric who told me right away that he doesnt heal stupid and that DVs are not worth taking because he can't use them on himself.

Are dvs really needed? I have some clrs where dv simply doesnt fit, I have some who have specific gear for them and such and have plenty of dvs, and honestly they just seem like a nice little extra, but thats about it.

[Fenrisulven6]

I dont pick up DVs unless theres nothing else worth choosing.

[Dragonhyde]

Are dvs really needed? I have some clrs where dv simply doesnt fit, I have some who have specific gear for them and such and have plenty of dvs, and honestly they just seem like a nice little extra, but thats about it.

sorry to revive just wanted to answer....I like dvs on my cleric but they are not necessary....but if your cleric chooses not to take them and is not effective in a quest do not expect to be the person my dvs will go to :P

[oweieie]

You are still trying to pidgeonhole a cleric as a healer only.

It should take all of 0.1 seconds of thought to realize that a melee class who spends all their feats, all their enhancement points and gets bonus feats on top of that and special class abilities and gets to put all their points into strength all to raise their melee powers is going to make clerics look utterly worthless as meleers. Which they are. A cleric who melees is utterly worthless.

[Garbudo]

It should take all of 0.1 seconds of thought to realize that a melee class who spends all their feats, all their enhancement points and gets bonus feats on top of that and special class abilities and gets to put all their points into strength all to raise their melee powers is going to make clerics look utterly worthless as meleers. Which they are. A cleric who melees is utterly worthless.

1 Cleric can solo DQ 2 Elite. Blade Barrier?

That is all.

[REALb0r3d]

**EDIT** C-RAP is censored?

Heres how it goes.

Melee types... bring curse pots, heal pots, clickys, **** casters don't have a better spell version of or **** with a definitive effect that is the same as the spell, and **** to use between encounters.
Casters you don't want to buff a melee with a better spell version than a pot exists... seems silly.

COMBAT!
1) If melee types are fighting they're losing hp most likely
2) If they stop fighting to heal themselves things are still alive nipping hp off
3) If they keep fighting and the healer type heals them monsters die
4) After monsters are dead melee types eat a few pots and whip themselves if they can
5) Everyone makes smores over bonfire of monsters corpses

THE END

[Zachski]

**EDIT** C-RAP is censored?

Heres how it goes.

Melee types... bring curse pots, heal pots, clickys, **** casters don't have a better spell version of or **** with a definitive effect that is the same as the spell, and **** to use between encounters.
Casters you don't want to buff a melee with a better spell version than a pot exists... seems silly.

COMBAT!
1) If melee types are fighting they're losing hp most likely
2) If they stop fighting to heal themselves things are still alive nipping hp off
3) If they keep fighting and the healer type heals them monsters die
4) After monsters are dead melee types eat a few pots and whip themselves if they can
5) Everyone makes smores over bonfire of monsters corpses

THE END

Spoken like someone who doesn't understand what Clerics and Favored Souls can actually do.

[REALb0r3d]

Spoken like someone who doesn't understand what Clerics and Favored Souls can actually do.

I have no idea... why... someone with a healing spec. class char would expect... a DPS char... to stop DPSing... to heal themselves... with... pots and wands. Used to be when I was going down and I used tuck tail and run to start gulping and whipping I might get a potion and a whip and then I'm healed for more than my total hp and in time that I needn't even start self medicating.
A story for you now and not to say I have anything against healer types, but on one occasion... I was in a group where the FvS decided he was going to solo without telling us and went about BB kiting/turtling/swinging occasionally and letting everyone die while telling the rest of us it was a tried and true tactic for this quest. Yes he did carry our stones to the shrine and I don't join groups to pike (unless its DQ... someone give me a tactic for a DPS that works in there please). A barb or stalwart defender or even a ranger is going to have a hard time occasionally keeping themselves up in a mob of orthons and devils.

As to whether I know what a healer type can do. I know what they can do. They can solo most anything when setup right. In a party when someone is going down in the middle of a melee they should probably heal them. Thats all I'm saying. If you want to act like one of your jobs isn't to heal someone when they're going down just solo the quest.
Isn't that the end of the discussion?

[Zachski]

I have no idea... why... someone with a healing spec. class char would expect... a DPS char... to stop DPSing... to heal themselves... with... pots and wands. Used to be when I was going down and I used tuck tail and run to start gulping and whipping I might get a potion and a whip and then I'm healed for more than my total hp and in time that I needn't even start self medicating.

First of all, talking to me like I'm slow isn't earning you any happy points.

Second of all, if you had bothered to READ the thread, you would know that when Clerics are telling people to heal themselves, they're telling them to heal themselves out of battle. You know, when they're NOT being pounded on by enemies.

Finally, which is better? Spamming heals on the Barbarian who's aggroed every high-damaging enemy in the area? Or making all of those high-damaging enemies lay on the ground so the Barbarian can wail on them with absolutely no repercussions?

As to whether I know what a healer type can do. I know what they can do. They can solo most anything when setup right. In a party when someone is going down in the middle of a melee they should probably heal them. Thats all I'm saying. If you want to act like one of your jobs isn't to heal someone when they're going down just solo the quest.
Isn't that the end of the discussion?

Hahaha, I knew it, you really don't know what a Cleric or FVS can do.

I'm not talking about soloing. I'm talking about what they can offer to a party besides healing. But I guess you see "Cure Serious Wounds" and can't wrap your mind around anything past that. The buffs, the crowd control, and then Blade Barrier, one of the more damaging spells in the game.