Pugs dont Fail, Pug leaders do.

[Gunga]

Communication is required bi-directionally and you are correct Gunga, if the puggers won't communicate and / or take direction... Fail.

Heya Min.

I'm sure Impaqt and a bunch of us are fine raid leaders.

But as I sit here reading this, I'm reminded of my most recent pug which was a nightmare. Not because instruction wasn't given, but because people didn't listen.

So to make a blanket statement that it's the leader's fault because they did a poor job communicating is really misleading and, in fact, just not the case.

[wulfhen]

No.

But ok, if it makes you feel better.

Eh. Whatever.

And as someone who only Pugs, I disagree with your assessment. Most of the good groups I've been in are either because someone has attempted to take charge, and people have listened, or because people are already aware of the quest and know how to quickly slot into a group.

The bad ones? Individual players running off into lots of different directions because nobody is taking charge, or someone who says a few things that nobody listens to.

They're both problems and make a lot of Pugs very annoying.

And we're both wrong. In regards to sweeping generalizations anyway.

[Jiipster]

I just want to make it clear that I was not said WF Wiz from Erebus. Had it been me, there would've been several very, very spectacular wipes.

[Gunga]

because people are already aware of the quest and know how to quickly slot into a group.

We definately do not have to agree.

But this statement alone is precisely why people think they don't have to listen. They know it all, they've done it before, so, headphones off, haste me and give me a fire.

"Whatever" is right.

[wulfhen]

We definately do not have to agree.

But this statement alone is precisely why people think they don't have to listen. They know it all, they've done it before, so, headphones off, haste me and give me a fire.

"Whatever" is right.

People would be wrong if because they know the quest think they don't have to listen in a pug.

And my comment specifically mentions knowing how to slot into the group, which means following someones lead. Be it the heavies, the rogue, or whomever, without any clear instruction to do so. Those are the sort of people you want in a pug where someone doesn't pick up the mic/type out what to do.

And I'm still not sure how you can disagree. From the indication I'm getting, you're saying pugs always 100% fail because nobody listens? It's never any other reason, is that correct?

[Ministry]

...

But as I sit here reading this, I'm reminded of my most recent pug which was a nightmare. Not because instruction wasn't given, but because people didn't listen.

So to make a blanket statement that it's the leader's fault because they did a poor job communicating is really misleading and, in fact, just not the case.

Agreed.

The best pugs can work, despite a poor leader if people know what to do and do it and the best leaders can fail if people just don't/won't do as required.

I've seen the best of leaders like Gaxpar just lose it after seeing a bunch of ill equipt people who just can't do what they need to do (survive, walk and talk at the same time, etc.) and I've seen some of the not so great leaders do well because they have the best people on their raids.

In the end, you will succeed on some raids and fail on others. It's a game, but kinda like life. No biggy. We can post advice and anecdotes and have fun about it all, but in the end... all we can chose to do is count the plat when we succeed and laugh it off and go get a big ole beer when we don't.

[Kyrn]

Of cause, there's the times where the PuG leader is fresh in leading a raid (I don't see how any fresh PuG will manage to get Titan raid done since there are just too many multi-task factors which the leader can't even supervise directly), or is simply due to circumstance unqualified to lead at that portion.

Of cause, I'm speaking for myself here, since I'm the only one I can really represent. Admittedly, my raid completitions are low. (only completed the low level ones (Von, Titan, DQ, *cough*TS*cough*), none of them other than TS over 10))

The first time I lead a VoN raid, I made the critical error of not making sure there's enough people with high wis. This came about because all the other VoN runs I went to at that time, always had people who knew the run, and effortlessly completed the rune section.

Another instance, there was a VoN raid that I was leading, that due to circumstance I was called away for the majority for the raid (I passed leader to someone, said someone returned leader to me when I came back, just in time to down the guardian at the end). Seeing that I don't even know the class levels of a full half of the team, how can I be qualified to make a judgement call on who gets to beat down pillars?

(and on that note, I need to apologise again)

[Seelowe]

first of all, I like this thread.
it starts off with a nice story, continues with ppl taking opposite sides of arguments and becomes somewhat of a consolidation thing later on.

had to chuckle when sergeant Doc was mentioned as an example
on that note: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFNeBRc7W7s

anyway, imho the truth is somewhere between the two extremes. a mediocre leader with mediocre members will probably have higher chances of success than an excellent leader with non-cooperative group or a good for nothing leader with some excellent members (there is too many crucial things ppl can do to mess up a raid).

on the other hand some brilliant key players can bring a raid back to life either by taking control of an afubar situation or simply by soloing/duoing/trioing the final stages.

my personal horror experiences with raids that are lead poorly is hound on anything other than normal. there is a bunch of approaches and almost no good ones it seems. in that scenario it doesn't really matter how well you listen. if your raid leader ignores or simply never understood the circumstances under which certain things happen and instructs you to do jack about them. tis ALL him in that case and one of those times, that the pug didn't fail. the leader did hands down in my book.

now, titan for example... different story. you can't be everywhere. like if that fvs puts down a couple of blade barriers on the pillars... nothing the leader can do about it^^ (true story btw and no, not a filthy pugger but one of the guys of a 1337 guild. poor chap misclicked it seems )

[Chai]

Nowdays everyone could go afk and still only have a 50% chance of failing on the Reaver.

The air elementals are so easy to kill, you can strangle them with a cordless phone.

You dont carry people through that type of failure. Your backpack does. Or in this case, they sit in the death lobby and listen to smooth jazz music while the raid is completed.

[weyoun]

I was in a pug reaver last night. Mostly guys from a guild I had never ran with or seen before. I don't think I had ever grouped with any of them before. The party leader asked me to explain things as most of the people had only done it once or twice and there were a few first-timers. So I did, in probably more detail than a few would have liked. I had them do the tank/charge method, just to show them the typical way. The tank had some difficulty understanding what he was doing at first but it wasn't long before he was holding agro nicely and the casters were getting charged. In fact, we got 3 balls with elementals immediately - not the best circumstances for a group full of people new to the raid. After it was over I got tells from two different people saying how nice it was that people were explaining things again.

The reason I'm posting this is to reiterate your point. The leader knew better than to try and lead it because he wasn't sure of what he was doing. So he deferred. The difference between your story and this one is just as simple as someone knowing the limits of their ability and wanting to succeed more than to look cool. So I give that party leader credit.

I think 2 named items dropped.

[Impaqt]

I was in a pug reaver last night. Mostly guys from a guild I had never ran with or seen before. I don't think I had ever grouped with any of them before. The party leader asked me to explain things as most of the people had only done it once or twice and there were a few first-timers. So I did, in probably more detail than a few would have liked. I had them do the tank/charge method, just to show them the typical way. The tank had some difficulty understanding what he was doing at first but it wasn't long before he was holding agro nicely and the casters were getting charged. In fact, we got 3 balls with elementals immediately - not the best circumstances for a group full of people new to the raid. After it was over I got tells from two different people saying how nice it was that people were explaining things again.

The reason I'm posting this is to reiterate your point. The leader knew better than to try and lead it because he wasn't sure of what he was doing. So he deferred. The difference between your story and this one is just as simple as someone knowing the limits of their ability and wanting to succeed more than to look cool. So I give that party leader credit.

I think 2 named items dropped.

Who are you and what have you done with lysol?

[Dandonk]

Asking if anyone is new is not sufficient. Its rather pointless in fact. In a Reaver raid, you could have 20 completions and still not have a good idea as to what is actually happening and what needs to be done...

Especially this. Admittedly I'm slow (my RL int is barely above room temp, ask anyone in my guild), but for most raids it's taken me 30-40 completions to be relatively sure of what needs doing where, for all roles. And even now I'm nowhere near "perfect", whatever that is.

[weyoun]

Who are you and what have you done with lysol?

I don't have a problem blasting people when they need it as anyone who's played with me has most likely seen. I also don't have a problem helping when asked. I can't tell you how many times I've taught the titan green side to random puggers (with and without ddoor). If my experience was one-sided all the time I'm sure I would find difficulty pugging as much as I do. Most of the time my shenanigans are just poking fun of something someone is doing that is useless/ineffective OR drilling pile-ons (not running water in 3 gets under my skin) OR the straight-up hating I give moochers and beggars.

[Josh]

Cool Story Bro! eh?

Yes sir!



Or even better

[Missing_Minds]

Heya Min.

I'm sure Impaqt and a bunch of us are fine raid leaders.

But as I sit here reading this, I'm reminded of my most recent pug which was a nightmare. Not because instruction wasn't given, but because people didn't listen.

So to make a blanket statement that it's the leader's fault because they did a poor job communicating is really misleading and, in fact, just not the case.

Communication is a two way street. If one side is, but the other side isn't... Good luck.

If NO side is, you are doomed to fail.

[MorningStarSE]

This happened to me on S a few day ago /rolleye..

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=236177


I still admit that i had a few wrongs (minor issue, under-level, etc..) though i don't think or believe the group leader had to act like this...

[Gunga]

Communication is a two way street.

Captain Obvious thanks you.

[Turgar]

Every raid is different in several aspects, but one factor that seems to be a common thread in every quest/raid to some degree or another, is the noobtard factor.

We can try as hard as we like to complete a raid, but if one person does just the right thing it's a wipe. If this wasn't there, raids wouldn't be a challenge for anyone.

The downside of all this is that when we raid with people we don't know, the possibility that they are just a pileon or worse, a person who will wipe the raid with a critical decision is unknown.

I'd like to say that I have never made a mistake that caused a failure, but I did learn. One of those key things I learned the hard way, is to take leap of faith off my key bindings when healing on a raid. Ever have your healer fly off the platform into the Lava in an Epic DQ run because their kid walked up and touched their keyboard?

Lol that was the last raid I did with my kids staying with me lol.

The point of this story, is that people do stupid stuff. Pugs fail for many reasons; sometimes its a critical error, sometimes its the raid leader giving poor directions, and sometimes it's just because 75% of the people in the raid are gimp/pileons.

MyDDO at least can give some insight into the gimp factor, so thank you Turbine for small graces.

[Wyrmnax]

Communication is a two way street. If one side is, but the other side isn't... Good luck.

If NO side is, you are doomed to fail.

If no side is, you set up fraps.

[synkos]

Well, let me chime in with my shroud experience yesterday. It was a leader unknown to me, second person to join was a lvl17 monk with 25% fort and a belt of resistance. I should've skipped it on that. I hate MyDDO. I don't wanna know things like that. I don't care. But he got some people from respectable guilds and I said what the hell, I'll hop in. I mean, it's shroud right? Everyone's done it xxxx's of times..

The leader is micless but types vigorously and I respect that. Those guys from respectable guilds take initiative and we chatted away setting up things. Everything goes smoothly, one of the better portal dps groups I've seen. The leader gives clear instructions on what to do. We go without a hitch to 4 and then we jump on harry. Healers agree on who's first in healing and it all starts. I start noticing that my red bar is going way more down than it should before I get hit with a heal. First thing I thought is "uh-oh". I was getting healed from almost dead to half. At that point we start wiping, from the lowest HP guys to me (only barb so I'm guessing one of the biggest red bars if not the biggest). I thought about my options, maybe jumping out and whipping some pots? It was too late at that point, my best bet was that I'll catch more heals at harry..

No communication whatsoever. Nobody said anything. I wanted to yell out "we need those heals faster" but I don't feel like throwing around demands when I still consider myself new to the whole shebang. The only thing the leader managed to say was "well that's a wipe". The other cleric said nothing.

Well, that ruined gaming for the evening and I went on doing other things, cursing myself for staying silent even tho I risked being called an idiot. but come on. someone? anyone? there were guys from those respectable guilds that I've mentioned before. They're probably not all that new. Couldn't anyone say anything ? I'm not gonna stay silent anymore and enjoy another "well that's a wipe" on something that really isn't nuclear science..

Maybe I'm most to blame for not screaming out for the other healer to chime in. I'll just blame myself.

/venting