Pugs dont Fail, Pug leaders do.

[Impaqt]

So last night I was doing a little toon maintinance and got a Tell... "Care to do a Reaver Raid?" or something to that extent....

He was polite so I figured, what the heck..... I switched to a cleric (I was on my melee FvS and assumed he wanted a healer) and Joined the group.

It was filling slowly so I said I could solo cleric it no problem.. we wound up filling anyway rather quickly so no big deal.

I looked around the group... WF Wiz From Erebus..... Fighter from Inferus Sus.... COuple old friends who just returned to the game from Umber Hulks... and the rest were unknown to me....

Not terible I thought, should go ok.

The leader had asked a couple times if this was anyones "First run" and of course go no response.. Typical... People dont admit that too often. and really, in a Reaver, its not that critical with a few necessary instructions.

We step in and buff, I guess the leader was gonna tank, but didnt make that clear to anyone, as we were about to start, he said something about Lag and rebooting his router.... SOmeone trggered the start and off we went....

I quickly realized we had at least 3 people beating on the reaver... ANd the person who was drawing aggro was pulling the reaver into a corner and holding him there facing the corner... Nearly Immpossible to get charges liek that...
I asked him to pull the reaver out of the corner a couple times He did once, but soon ended up back in the corner... The Raid leader made a couple short comments agreeing with me I think, but never took control of anything. I was not about to since it wasnt my Raid.

ANyway, after a few minutes, I ran out of Spell Points, Couldnt heal fast enough, and got killed. Party wipe ensued.

"Wow, didnt expect that would happen" I thought to myself.... The Leader of the group makes a comment about "Just another Pug Raid Failure"

After everyone recalls out, Most of the group decides to try again... We kept 11 of the 12... Pretty impressive for a misreble failure if ya ask me.... as we are getting ready to reform,. the leader asks again "Is this anyones first time"?

At that Point, I had to speak up...

"Ya know, you still have to actually lead the raid and provide instructions for folks. DOesnt matter if you have 12 peple that know what to do in here, if they all start doing the same thing, the raids gonna fail again"

"Fine, You lead it then" Ding. Alandael has the star. He then said something about being Drunk.....

"OK" I reply.

we break and I reform the group, pop up an lfm and grab an extra Cleric to replace the 1 person we lost to help heal and we go back in.... After a few entertaining tells from friends in the group, and one from the former leader asking me if I was realy gonna lead the raid this time... Obviously, he had no idea who I was... we stepped back in.....


I provided my standard Reaver Raid instructions.

Designated the Tank (Inferus Sus dude) Provided an outline of where the firewalls should be, and made sure I was clear on who was responsible for what. If your not the tank, you are on Ele duty. Pretty simple. But necessary in a Pug.

Not sure what was up, but this was a pretty strange Instance... The tank did Great, we quickly got our buff and all was going smooth. The second cleric I got got killed somehow... Oh well.... then it got weird... I went in for a new Charge.. saw the reaver throwing the charges, Saw the annimation.. but it didnt register on me...
It didnt register on anyone... We hit some lag spikes.... I got incapped somehow.... Things were starting to go Pear shapped..... we lost nearly half the group in an instant.....

I got a Heal of some sort and got back on my feat.. whew.... I quickly reassess the situation. Lost the Tank.... but the rest of my friends were still good to go.... I assigned a new tank and we went back to work. The instance setled down and I was able to get a new charge, the new Tank got Fly... and took off for the lever... He made it, but was unsure as to how it worked. He pulled it, but when I asked if the lever was pulled, I got no response.
He was the only melee left.... and now he was up in the ceiling not doing anything.... Did he not pull the lever?

All the while the Erebus WF Wiz was desperately trying to get a new charge, the other sorc was laying down a firewall here and there.... Our only hope was send someone else to the lever..... SO I went... The wiz got his charge and I told him I was going to the lever, as I got to the lever, I found our melee standing there wondering why the barrier didnt go down.... The one that doesnt go down until the raid is over.... WIth the lever locked down and pulled....

Oh well, Had to check.... Back to the floor.. Storm reaver finaly succumbs to the Firewalls.... and we move on to the puzzle....

It seemed like an Eternity.... No way would we have enough TIme to do the puzzle... But surprisingly, we had plenty of time left... So much in fact that I wonder if the Timer was altered at some point. We had almost half the timer left.....

THe puzzle is done in 5 moves, (Yes, I used a Solver for this run because It was late and we already had one fail... Just didnt want to take the chance)

Congrats get thrown around.. Some raid loot dropped... and everyone is happy.....

Overall, It was a prety Fun run considering......


Cool Story Bro! eh?

SUre, but my point is this....

Most pug raids dont fail "Because they are Pugs" They fail because they dont know what to do. Someone who takes it upon themselves to lead a raid needs to step up and Lead the raid. Asking if anyone is new is not sufficient. Its rather pointless in fact. In a Reaver raid, you could have 20 completions and still not have a good idea as to what is actually happening and what needs to be done...


As a Raid Leader,

Know the raid yourself. You dont have to be an expert. But you should be able to provide direction to the party.

Provide Clear instructions on how you want things to be done. If you dont know, ask for help or suggestions. Figure out who you can Rely on. Figure out who's expendable.

Step up and Take control of the situation when things start to get out of hand.


When things go wrong, they will NOT correct themselves. it will continue to get worse until the party wipes or until someone can get things back on track.

Oh, and this didnt happen last light, but seriously.... Yelling at folks and calling them noobs and saying they suck cause the raid is about to fail is not a good way to rally the troops around you to get a raid (Or any quest) back on track. AS a matter of fact, thats when I stop caring about a completion.



So anyway, Welcome back to the game Anne and Sig.

Thanks for doing a great job Tanking NickF

and to the WF Wiz who's name escapes me right now, You reaffirmed my faith in Erebus. You folks are top notch.

To the folks who wound up in the Penalty Box.... Sorry about that... Nothing I could of done differently..... but Hopefully you learned something about the raid at least.....

[weyoun]

I would have let everyone die and just solo'd it - If I was on my cleric, fvs or arcane. Not healing is key to the pile-on learning process.

[centurian]

Good save Impaqt,/signed

[Impaqt]

I would have let everyone die and just solo'd it - If I was on my cleric, fvs or arcane. Not healing is key to the pile-on learning process.

Dont think the thought didnt cross my mind.....

[HeavenlyCloud]

Oh, and this didnt happen last light, but seriously.... Yelling at folks and calling them noobs and saying they suck cause the raid is about to fail is not a good way to rally the troops around you to get a raid (Or any quest) back on track. AS a matter of fact, thats when I stop caring about a completion.

I usually just see how good are the chances to succeed and just tell him to shut up and see how it's done :O. Usually this make them shut up and start thinking "*** did they do to finish".

Nice story btw :P and i agree.

[Anderei]

Obviously, he had no idea who I was...

And that exactly is?

Otherwise I agree that a good organisation/leadership is it all about. Even if everybody knows how a raid works, there are still different ways to do it, the group having to adept due to its makeup etc. Hardly any Raid works of 12 people running indepently who altough knowing what to do without communicating.

[Impaqt]

And that exactly is?

many, If not most raiders, on Thelanis, especially late night players, know I lead a LOT of raids.

[Ministry]

many, If not most raiders, on Thelanis, especially late night players, know I lead a LOT of raids.

Sorry... who are you?



Oh, one of those fancy raid leaders... ya, I keep getting myddo'ed, so don't get into those.



Yup, with Lysol on this one... sometimes you just have to let people die and just do it yourself as it can be so much easier to just worry about yourself and maybe a few others than a bunch of people that just can't, don't or won't get it.

But, **** good advice to anyone wanting to lead a raid.

...

Thanks for doing a great job Tanking NickF

and to the WF Wiz who's name escapes me right now, You reaffirmed my faith in Erebus. You folks are top notch.

...

Yup, no surprise there.

[wulfhen]

Pretty new here, and damnable new to DDO..

But from my little experience in regards to both just standard 6-man content and raids..

Couldn't agree more.

Doesn't even matter if you have a mic, as long as you're capable of giving clear instructions and warnings via text. Simple stick with me, go for these mobs first, and advance warning of traps just for those of lousy memory.

More often than not, I just see people opening up a group for content they want to get done and assuming that everyone is going to work together as though they're on the same page.

When pigs fly.

[Gunga]

Yeah. OK.

What about Pugs that don't listen to a single word you say?

Your leadership skills should come into question if half the pug can't take direction?

/generalization fail

[wulfhen]

Yeah. OK.

What about Pugs that don't listen to a single word you say?

Your leadership should come into question if half the pug can't take instruction?

/generalization fail

>.< But the original poster didn't make a sweeping generalization. He said *most*, which is a majority. There was no comment about *all*, or the fact that everyone listens to leaders.

[Impaqt]

Yeah. OK.

What about Pugs that don't listen to a single word you say?

Your leadership should come into question if half the pug can't take instruction?

/generalization fail

Yup, sometimes It can be hopeless.....

I find those times to be not as often as most people believe.

Most people Dont want to Suck.

Most people Dont want to Fail.

Its a pretty rare group where 11 People have no interest in listening to instructions or doing what needs to be done.

[Gunga]

>.< But the original poster didn't make a sweeping generalization. He said *most*, which is a majority. There was no comment about *all*, or the fact that everyone listens to leaders.

So you skipped the most easily read part of the thread and went straight for the wall of text?

The term "most" is a sweeping generalization btw...

[Impaqt]

Its true. I Guilty of believing that people want to succeed in general.

[Ministry]

Yeah. OK.

What about Pugs that don't listen to a single word you say?

Your leadership skills should come into question if half the pug can't take direction?

The moment you realize this, break group and re-form without the person(s) that don't/won't take direction.

Unfortunately I have done this a couple of times.

Message out verbally, "sorry all, this isn't going well and I'm going to drop now. Anyone else who wants to reform, I will re-post and you are welcome to hit the LFM and we will go again, without those who refuse to listen and / or do as required."

I hate to waste the time of the people in the group that are solid and want to do well and succeed, but I'm sure they don't mind reforming if we have a higher chance of success and are leaving the pikers.

The only exception to this is "IF" people say something up front. I know Impaqt and many other raid leaders that are happy to give extra explanation / instructions up front to ensure people understand what is required and to ask for help along the way.

Communication is required bi-directionally and you are correct Gunga, if the puggers won't communicate and / or take direction... Fail.

[wulfhen]

So you skipped the most easily read part of the thread and went straight for the wall of text?

The term "most" is a sweeping generalization btw...

A sweeping generalization is "All". "Most" allows for a lot of leeway though it is a generalization because it isn't hard fact.

And yes. I read the post. Whats the point in replying to a post if you're going to skip the majority of it and merely comment on something in the first few lines?

I would say thats akin to trying to say you know the contents of a novel because you read the first chapter.

[Gunga]

Yup, sometimes It can be hopeless.....

I find those times to be not as often as most people believe.

Most people Dont want to Suck.

Most people Dont want to Fail.

Its a pretty rare group where 11 People have no interest in listening to instructions or doing what needs to be done.

We don't all have to agree.

I pug a lot.

I'll make this generalization:

People don't listen.

I think it's a basic part of modern day life. You need to tell people 1,000 times to do something before it finally connects. Advertising is a prime example.

Add to the fact that a great many powergamers have at least some level of ADD, and you don't have yourself a winning model for compliance.

You might have had a nice little pug experience that motivated you to create a WOT thread about your latest epiphany. A pug has it's reputation for a valid reason, and pardon me for not taking your wide-eyed account of the promised land to heart.


But don't take my word for it - go run a few pugs with Doc, the quintessential pug leader. He's brutal. He's a drill sargeant. This is no fun and games, there's a war going on and these devils have got to die. He yells and screams and curses and wins.

Go talk to him about how pugs are just poor misunderstood souls looking for a daddy.

[Gunga]

A sweeping generalization is "All". "Most" allows for a lot of leeway though it is a generalization because it isn't hard fact.

And yes. I read the post. Whats the point in replying to a post if you're going to skip the majority of it and merely comment on something in the first few lines?

I would say thats akin to trying to say you know the contents of a novel because you read the first chapter.

No.

But ok, if it makes you feel better.

[dasein18]

We don't all have to agree.

But don't take my word for it - go run a few pugs with Doc, the quintessential pug leader. He's brutal. He's a drill sargeant. This is no fun and games, there's a war going on and these devils have got to die. He yells and screams and curses and wins..

What? Doc is no fun.. I swear I have had fun in runs with him and have the audio to prove it...

[Impaqt]

We don't all have to agree.

I pug a lot.

I'll make this generalization:

People don't listen.

I think it's a basic part of modern day life. You need to tell people 1,000 times to do something before it finally connects. Advertising is a prime example.

Add to the fact that a great many powergamers have at least some level of ADD, and you don't have yourself a winning model for compliance.

You might have had a nice little pug experience that motivated you to create a WOT thread about your latest epiphany. A pug has it's reputation for a valid reason, and pardon me for not taking your wide-eyed account of the promised land to heart.


But don't take my word for it - go run a few pugs with Doc, the quintessential pug leader. He's brutal. He's a drill sargeant. This is no fun and games, there's a war going on and these devils have got to die. He yells and screams and curses and wins.

Go talk to him about how pugs are just poor misunderstood souls looking for a daddy.

I've been on plenty of Docs raids that have failed.

I've led plenty of raid failures myself.

I'm not sure where you got the impression that I think you have to be mary poppins to lead a raid.....