Defender of Siberys

[crschoen]

I am thinking about doing a True Reincarnate of my level 20 KotC paladin, and going towards the Defender of Siberys.

The goal would be a tank that can intimidate and take a lot of aggro and damage.

I haven't seen very many Defender of Siberys builds on the forums. Does anyone have experience with them or advice on building one? (for example, is tower shield a must-have?)

[blitzschlag]

I am thinking about doing a True Reincarnate of my level 20 KotC paladin, and going towards the Defender of Siberys.

The goal would be a tank that can intimidate and take a lot of aggro and damage.

I haven't seen very many Defender of Siberys builds on the forums. Does anyone have experience with them or advice on building one? (for example, is tower shield a must-have?)

if you want stay pure (which i recommend) you can forget about intimidate

whats wrong with your kotc? no fun?

[Baahb3]

I'll have to agree with Blitz here, if you want to stay pure you will have a tough time intimidating many boss creatures.

11 ranks (cross class) + 15 item + 10 cha (30 cha) is only +36, with no class enhancements to boost this you would need to spend some of your precious feats to get it up into the usable range, IMO not worth it.

[Rekker]

I still don't understand why Palys don't get Intim as a Class Skill ???

[elraido]

I still don't understand why Palys don't get Intim as a Class Skill ???

They are talkers, not yellers.

[Maldavenous]

18 Paladin/2 Fighter - Elf is my favorite Defender of Siberys build. The key to elf is that you need DEX to max your AC because Defender of Siberys gives a greater max DEX bonus on Shields and Armor as part of its functionality. Elf also gets a damage bonus with Scimitars which isn't a bad weapon choice.

STR/CON are going to be your most important attributes. Of course make sure your INT will get to 13 for Combat Expertise. I believe the DEX total you need for Defender of Siberys if you wear a Daggertooth Belt (which I'd recommend) is 24-26 total buffed. CHA is fairly good because more will get you Divine Might but it's not necessary, you'll hit 50+ Intim with a fairly low CHA. WIS you can leave at 8, get a +6 item to be able to cast spells.

It's a fairly gear dependent character. You'll need the chattering ring and all 3 pieces of Levik's Defender, or at least a +4 Insight Bonus item (Levik's 3 set is +5 and +aggro) as well as a Chattering Ring and just about any other item you'd use on your KotC as well.

[HallowedOne]

I prefer the pally 18/ 2 rogue. Evasion is wonderful on many situations - sully's cl's and arraetrikos's fballs won't hurt at all, for example. Also, you get UMD so u can use Raise Dead, Heal Scrolls, and use mage's wands.

[KKDragonLord]

Whats the max consistent AC for a Siberys build?

[gavagai]

I am thinking about doing a True Reincarnate of my level 20 KotC paladin, and going towards the Defender of Siberys.

The goal would be a tank that can intimidate and take a lot of aggro and damage.

I haven't seen very many Defender of Siberys builds on the forums. Does anyone have experience with them or advice on building one? (for example, is tower shield a must-have?)

I'd go ahead and try it. It's fun -- but it is more expensive and more of an investment than the KotC, and IMO it falls short of being as good at both defensive tanking and offensive DPSing at a Stalwart Defender.

This is an extremely solid and enjoyable build, though I never got it past level 15 for gear-related reasons

That said, I think DoS is atm poorly implemented.

It seems that releasing a PrE that requires a multiclass to be effective is bad design. Rogue and Fighter are useful, but deprive you of arguably the best capstone for tanking.

DPS and AC benefit from stat-spiking; and DoSes are probably the most intensely MAD build. The fact that DoS stances are essentially the same as SDs, but that DoS's will want high CHA, makes DoS lag a bit in STR/CON. Then add the STR enh. from Fighter, and that "bit" can become a +4 STR advantage to the SD. IMHO, of course.

And it's especially bad when the core alternative mechanic (Defender stance's hate generation) is, according to comments I've read on the forums, not working properly. I wouldn't know, however, since most DoSes I've seen sacrifice so much DPS compared to the pure KotC or SD that they may not keep aggro in tank mode, even with +200% hate. :P

I would say if you want to get a taste of Intimitanking, start with a Stalwart Defender. With 7/8 feats (+2 if 2Fighter, +1 if 1Fighter/1rogue), it is hard to cover all the bases. An SD will get a few more build points in STR and CON, more DPS boosting feats and abilities (STR enh, haste boost, weapon spec), and enough feats to learn how to strike a harmonious balance between solid offense and solid defense. You can find out what works and what doesn't work with the flexibility that fighter brings, so you can then try to achieve the same thing with the paladin's 7/8 feats.

Then again, maybe I'm just running with DoSes which, like me, were tremendously undergeared.

[Vormaerin]

I still don't understand why Palys don't get Intim as a Class Skill ???

Because the class skills are based on D&D, where Intimidate is not a force taunt. Its a social skill. Paladins have Diplomacy as their social skill.

In D&D, Intimidate can be used to momentarily debuff a mob (though its rarely worth it), but it has no taunt effect. Diplomacy has no combat applications at all; its detaunt effect is a DDO adaptation.

[Maldavenous]

I prefer the pally 18/ 2 rogue. Evasion is wonderful on many situations - sully's cl's and arraetrikos's fballs won't hurt at all, for example. Also, you get UMD so u can use Raise Dead, Heal Scrolls, and use mage's wands.

The issue I had with the 18Pal/2Rog was the fact that you don't get evasion while you're in heavy armor and Pal/Rog KotC is a heavy armor wearing build.

Do you take off armor for fights you want evasion for?

Over all the only dungeon that's been a real pain without evasion at all is Stealer of Souls. I've done plenty of Enter the Kobolds, Shrouds, etc. without any threat of death without evasion, and I still haven't managed to get firestorm greaves (despite my hundreds of total desert runs).

Yes, evasion is good, but in my case I'm not interested in it enough to carry a second set of armor.

Oh the other Hand the UMD for Rogue does work really well, but it's not nearly as nice for a tank (because you can't cast and stay in Combat Expertise, as well as various other tanking/scroll casting issues) while Fighter gets you 2 more Feats that Ropue does and they come in really handy seeing Paladins get no extra feats .

[Gercho]

If you are KotC you most probably dont have a good ac, if you dont have a good AC, then why will you bother using heavy armor at all? i use just robes with my KotC splashing rogue.

About the intimi DoS, the best way to do it is 18pal/2Fighter, you need the 3 extra feats for Tower Shield, CE and Dodge, so you can maintain the THF feats for DPS situations, with rogue you have to sacrifice DPS completely to be able to tank.

Copying a build from junts:

X. Sample Human Tank

Lawful Good Human Paladin 18 / 2 fighter (fighter at 1 and 8

Str: 15 + 5 levels (30 endgame)
Dex: 12 (qualifies for dodge, theoretical filling-out of best-in-game epic armor)
Con: 14 (22 endgame)
Int: 12 (+1 tome for ce; 4 skill points/level)
Wis: 8 (pattern forming)
Cha: 16 (Dm3 qualified; 26-28 endgame depending on gear)

28 pt version: drop dex 4 points (take skill focus: umd instead of dodge), pick dex+dodge back up when greater reincarnation available

1: Power attack
1f: EWP: Khopesh
1h: Toughness
3: Two-handed fighting
6: Extend Spell
8f: Improved crit: slash
9: Combat Expertise
12: Improved two-handed fighting
15: Greater two-handed fighting
18: Dodge

Fighter 1: 4 ranks in intimidate, 2 in UMD, 2 in tumble.
Paladin levels: intim 2, umd 1 point
Fighter 8: Intim 1, umd 1, 1 point in jump

A +2 int tome really helps have points for other skills!

Enhancements:

Defender of Siberys 1-3 (8 ap)
Paladin Courage of Good 1 (1 ap, pre-req)
Paladin Focus of Good 1 (1 ap, pre-req)
Paladin Resistance of Good 1-3 (6 ap, pre-req but awesome)
Paladin Bulwark of Good 1-4 (10 ap, pre-req but awesome)
Follower of the Sovereign Host (2 ap, pre-req)
Unyielding Sovereignty (4 ap)
Paladin Divine Might 1-3 (6 ap)
Paladin Divine Sacrifice 1-2 (3 ap)
Paladin Extra Smite 1-3 (6 ap)
Paladin Exalted Smite 1-2 (3 ap)
Paladin Toughness 1-3 (6 ap)
Racial Toughness 1-2 (3 ap)
Human Adapt: strength (2 ap)
Human Improved recovery 1-2 (6 ap)
Paladin Divine Righteousness 1 (1 ap)
Paladin Charisma 1 (2 ap)
Fighter Haste Boost 1 (1 ap)
Fighter Strength 1 (2 ap)
Fighter Intimidate 1 (1 ap)
Paladin Extra Lay on hands 1-3 (6 ap)

This character is capabale of the exact same endgame armor class as my tank (85, with perfect gear and raid-buffs), though getting all that takes months. It's also got fully functional two handed fighting for dps situations!

[crschoen]

Thanks all for the advice, this is exactly the information I was looking for before I committed to anything. I didn't realize (obvious to me now) that the Defender's intimidate would not be high enough at end game.

I guess my biggest complaint with my current Level 20 KotC is that he doesn't really excel at anything. He's "OK" at his job but not outstanding.
- no intimidate currently
- AC is average (not enough to qualify as a tank at end game stuff)
- Damage is average (not enough to qualify as a DPS at end game)

So I kind of feel that he is a "jack of all trades, master of none". I thought a TR as a Defender of Siberys might give him a chance to excel at the tank role, but that doesn't sound like the way to go either. I'll look into some of these other cross class builds suggested, thanks.

BTW - I agree with others here that Intimidate in DDO is much more important than p&p, and it should be adjusted accordingly to make it a paladin skill. The fact that a pure level 20 defender of siberys build is not viable for what he is designed for is evidence to this fact.

[Josh]

DoS, while nice on paper is a trap. High AC toons that can't manage aggro are not very effective IMO. A Stalwart Defender is much more effective in that role. If Paladin's had intimi as a class skill I think DoS would be a very viable build.

[HallowedOne]

Do you take off armor for fights you want evasion for?

Over all the only dungeon that's been a real pain without evasion at all is Stealer of Souls. I've done plenty of Enter the Kobolds, Shrouds, etc. without any threat of death without evasion, and I still haven't managed to get firestorm greaves (despite my hundreds of total desert runs).
Yes, evasion is good, but in my case I'm not interested in it enough to carry a second set of armor.

You don't have to carry 2 suits, just wear the light armor. The only problem is that you have to get more base dexterity (in my case, 12) to max out DT Light armor max dex bonus, and without 32 pt builds, it isn't worth it.

And I think that, with max dex, FP & Light armor AC is about the same.

[Chai]

The issue with paladins as intimitanks is that you basically have to go full intim in order to be effective at it and the DPS is pretty gimped at that point compared to a fighter due to limited feats.

A 20 human fighter gets 19 feats, and can go stalwart using about half of the feats to support intim and defense, and the other half to support DPS, ending up with 36 str and full on weapon specialization in stance pre shroud or other raid gear. The DPS ends up to be average to above average while maxing on AC and blocking.

The best I have seen the build explained is here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=216140

[Chai]

The build also has low balance, no blocking support feats, no tumble for moving around in stance etc.

I am not sure why it has khopesh if not TWF. Usually an intim is either tanking and blocking, or damaging. Swinging a weapon with one hand in combat expertise mode is laughable. You could swing a vorpal, but it can be ANY vorpal for the same 20=death effect. I built a multi class tank on this higher AC higher saves principle early on in my DDO experience, and he was good at tanking, but the DPS was infini-gimped. A fight between you and one equal level mob will last until one of you dies of old age.

Dodge is 1 ac, kick that feat to the curb and take the 3 TWF line and slap OTWF on top of it. If you are going more dex to get into light armor you will likely qualify for the TWF line in full.

This might then all be worth while, but still doesnt hold up to a stalwart 20 fighter IMO.

Another caveat: 8 wis + extend spell?

[Gercho]

Are you talking about the build i posted? It has khopesh, cause extra damage in ac mode its good fror hate generation, DoS has a lot of hate generation, so even with a S/B can get the aggro (burning fast his smites for example, the khopesh increased critical its really good when smiting), has all the THF line aswell for situations where dps is required.

This build is too ability point starved to get the dex for twf, and switching to light armor will lower his max AC.

Paladins have another advantages over fighter for tanking, great saves, self healing, can get umd for no fail heal scrolls even with half ranks.

So, i agree that fighters can get more dps for dps situations, but paladins have other abilities that are good for tanking.

About 8 wis + extend, its something almost every paladin does, no paladin requires more than 14 wis to cast spells, and even with 6 start wis for a warforged they can get there with a +2 tome and +6 item.

[Mithran]

If you're looking at elven with a splash of a Class where Intimidate is a Class Skill, I'd recommend Drow 18 Paladin/2 Rogue, instead. When you look at build Ability points, Drow still come out ahead of Elven by a point. The objection that you can't wear Heavy Armor is a wash because your A/C will probably be better where you're allowed more of your Dexterity Bonus. With my Anguirel build, she also has GTWF for a dps-mode where her Intimidate isn't needed. Where it is needed, just turtle up and spam your Intimidate.

Anguirel

Currently, Anguirel

Dual-wielding rapiers for a dps-mode, starting Charisma of 17.

It also takes advantage of UMD.

I've also been thinking about going with two Deathnips in lieu of the rapiers and taking DM instead of Drow Rapier Enhancements.

[spyderwolf]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=220826

thats my pally. in the time he has been releveled , not a single person has pulled aggro on a raid boss. and my guildies have def tried with their fb3 and kensai 3.

if you want max dps dont do it. if you want an exceptional raid boss tank do it.