Favored souls and Evasion. Not sold at all. In fact ur gimping urself.

[Mellkor]

yep, I do, because the mob is dead faster. less incoming damage.

[Steveohio]

Ah ok got it.

Stupid shield blocking turtles, next time I'll just tell them to whip out the weapons and hit things because the faster things die the better they are as tanks?

Stupid Stalwart Defenders shoulda went Kensai!

Also you do realize when you say the ravager set, +2 more seeker, and GTHF aren't signifcant, but they add more to your damage output than the Lord of the Blades bonuses do?

356 compared to 248 is pretty significant, I know my calculator is just some voodoo device thats probably lieing to me, but thats roughly 50% more.

[Anthios888]

Ah ok got it.

Stupid shield blocking turtles, next time I'll just tell them to whip out the weapons and hit things because the faster things die the better they are as tanks?

Stupid Stalwart Defenders shoulda went Kensai!

Also you do realize when you say the ravager set, +2 more seeker, and GTHF aren't signifcant, but they add more to your damage output than the Lord of the Blades bonuses do?

356 compared to 248 is pretty significant, I know my calculator is just some voodoo device thats probably lieing to me, but thats roughly 50% more.

For him it's at least 35-40 DPS by just adding those items and feats. Something I'd sure think about.

[Mellkor]

Ah ok got it.

Stupid shield blocking turtles, next time I'll just tell them to whip out the weapons and hit things because the faster things die the better they are as tanks?

Stupid Stalwart Defenders shoulda went Kensai!

Also you do realize when you say the ravager set, +2 more seeker, and GTHF aren't signifcant, but they add more to your damage output than the Lord of the Blades bonuses do?

356 compared to 248 is pretty significant, I know my calculator is just some voodoo device thats probably lieing to me, but thats roughly 50% more.

Firstly please reread what I said, you compleatly misunderstood. I will spell it out for you a second time. I said that they are not that significant RELATIVE to what twitch fighting adds to dps. next time read and understand before you spout off such vileness
and yes shield blocking turtles would be better tanks if they could actually hit things and damage them. I am sorry if the concept of things dying faster is better than letting them beat on you is incomprehensable to you. Nothing more I can say really.

As for your builds the way you are equiping yourselves and the feats you are taking, you gotta give up too much on the divine side, may as well be a ranger or barb or even a pally, it just takes too much away from the healing abilites to be really great at it.

[Steveohio]

Have you ever looked at a monk splash divine? really?

Because they do have the ability to have all the same meta feats (empower healing, maximize, quicken, and empower[which you dont have]) as well as the full GTWF line, toughness and power attack. Imp crit isnt needed because we roll with min2's more than likely.

As well as all the same 4 mass cures, mass heal.

How or what exactly is too much being taken away from the divine side/healing here that we should just go with a ranger/barb/ftr/whatever that can't group heal?

Also we are pretty aware of what your saying that in regards to tanking; things dieing faster = better tank, however its wrong. Damage avoidance, mitigation, max HP, and threat is what makes a tank a tank. So in a way, sure your build, or any other pure WF FVS is SLIGHTLY a better tank than another pure fvs, and moreso a monk splash.

But no divine actually builds to be a tank, because unlike dps, those things don't stack relative to party size, you are designating that assignment to someone specialized in it. Anyone built to be a tank that isn't actively tanking is not optimal in ANY raid or group setting and you would be better served to just bring in someone that can do more dps.

[Gercho]

Anthios, a couple questions, how do Ravager set works if you dont have the THF feats?
Do you have a link to share with a dps calculator? i have been toying with a fvs 16/fighter 2/monk 2 (or different variations) to be able to fit all the thf feats, obviously losing a lot on healing, but i would like to know how much dps i could get from that splash to see if i want to sacrifice the healing for it...

About the dps comparison, well, its a little unfair you include twitching in the second and not in the first, cause you can twitch with both builds, and if you dont like twitching you wont twitch with any of those, so its not really a build comparison but a build and style of play comparison.

[Mellkor]

Have you ever looked at a monk splash divine? really?

Because they do have the ability to have all the same meta feats (empower healing, maximize, quicken, and empower[which you dont have]) as well as the full GTWF line, toughness and power attack. Imp crit isnt needed because we roll with min2's more than likely.

As well as all the same 4 mass cures, mass heal.

How or what exactly is too much being taken away from the divine side/healing here that we should just go with a ranger/barb/ftr/whatever that can't group heal?

Also we are pretty aware of what your saying that in regards to tanking; things dieing faster = better tank, however its wrong. Damage avoidance, mitigation, max HP, and threat is what makes a tank a tank. So in a way, sure your build, or any other pure WF FVS is SLIGHTLY a better tank than another pure fvs, and moreso a monk splash.

But no divine actually builds to be a tank, because unlike dps, those things don't stack relative to party size, you are designating that assignment to someone specialized in it. Anyone built to be a tank that isn't actively tanking is not optimal in ANY raid or group setting and you would be better served to just bring in someone that can do more dps.

No improved crit? wow, now thats a major DPS boon in my favor, that is convienently also factored in on your DPS arguments/calculations. So no improved crit when, as you say, you often use various non min II weapons will make decent dent in your DPS numbers as calculated above.

I have played and do play divine/monk splashes, and they are a real advantage with evasion over pure in about 3 quests. I deleted the FvS splash builds, and kept the cleric splash builds. I think it works great and adds a lot of advantages with almost no disadvantages on a human caster focused cleric. However there is no way I could trade 5 or 6 feats to make room for the combat feats you mention without some major sacrifes in healing ability even after sacrificing the casting related feats. Having the limitation of only one lev 9 spell slot is reason enough to not even consider a /2 splash on FvS, IMO. Plus you have sacrifice some of the best upper level spells and buffs for the party. Remove any 1 spell from my pure FvS spell list, and I would really miss it let alone losing a few more than that with a /2 splash. My primary focus is to be a first a healer/buffer, secondly DPS, I sacrifice nothing in healing and buffing ability and still do as good a job healing as any cleric (better really, but only because I have around 500 more SP than the typical lev 20 cleric), while also doing nearly as good a job at DPS as possible with a divine character. These splash FvS builds always seem to strive to be DPS focused first, healing second. Which is fine for some folks, but I have seen (and experienced it first hand) these /2 FvS builds struggle too much in epics and end game raids compared to pures for me to endorse FvS splash builds for endgame use. If you don't care about end game they may be ok, but certainly not for me having played both, I choose the Pure FvS to take to the bank, every time. The pure WF FvS fills my character concept I have for it far better than a /2 FvS splash ever could.


as for this comment; Damage avoidance, mitigation, max HP, and threat.....makes a tank a tank. I disagree with this. There is no point to turtling up and getting pounded on when in most cases you can accompish the same thing and more with a dps build by kiting and swinging away at the same time. The best defense is a strong offense. Personally, the fastest quest times and easiest to finish have always been done when I quest with those who embrace this philosophy. The only time I turtle up is when I need SP or am protecting a caster (which by the way I have almost the best DR you can get while shield blocking without even trying). They may be very few times where turtling is an advantage, but it is not often enough to focus a build for that when those situations are easily dealt with via other methods.

Another big issue I had with the /2 FvS build was lack of extend meta feat. Spent too much time refreshing buffs/pots. (that should really be factored into those DPS numbers, lol as well as time for self healing, party healing, etc) (yet another reason to put little faith into DPS calculators for non DPS builds). With extend those 4+ min buffs usually lasted long enough to not have to refresh during battles. The ~2 min versions often didnt last long enough to persist through battles, especially in end game. My guy does fine with just Divine power and divine favor and GH.

[Anthios888]

Anthios, a couple questions, how do Ravager set works if you dont have the THF feats?
Do you have a link to share with a dps calculator? i have been toying with a fvs 16/fighter 2/monk 2 (or different variations) to be able to fit all the thf feats, obviously losing a lot on healing, but i would like to know how much dps i could get from that splash to see if i want to sacrifice the healing for it...

About the dps comparison, well, its a little unfair you include twitching in the second and not in the first, cause you can twitch with both builds, and if you dont like twitching you wont twitch with any of those, so its not really a build comparison but a build and style of play comparison.

DPS Calculator
I do not really have a link to share the DPS calculator, but if you would like to PM me, I can try to e-mail it to you. The calculator was designed by Jaerlach (adapted over time from an old one, maybe?) and has never been released. He and I were working on a DPS project to tabulate baselines for every popular build, but we scrapped the project since he quit DDO, I have less time, and the controvery would inevitably make the game less fun for me.

It's a nice calculator and has helped me come to informed decisions about how to do my own equipment, which items to craft, and which abilities to prioritize. I am not the type of person who is soley moved by numbers that come in a vaccuum (have a look at my builds), but I think they can still inform making good decisions. He has updated it to take into account smiting, divine sacrifice, monk punch rotations, glancing blows and frenzied berzeker, fight durations & short-term buffs. The downside is that it's really confusing to use! His help file is a little esoteric.

Warforged FVS DPS numbers
I apologize if you felt the numbers were misleading. I had originally calculated the numbers at work to show Melkor how someone could take his exact build and rework it (through lesser reincarnate, gear changes, and playstyle changes) to do substantially more DPS. Thus, if "tanking ability" = DPS, then perhaps he is not specced for "tanking ability" as he says here but instead for healing as he says in his own thread.

As I said in a follow up, the difference is still like 40 DPS even if both builds are twitching or not twitching. Attack speed is the easiest factor to consider. You can tell for yourself simply by multiplying the number by 107 / 130 (# of attacks without twitch / # of attacks with twitch). Just keep in mind that the tally is increased because of the fact that greater two handed fighting makes the weight of glancing blows more substantial when you're not twitching (~10 more dps).

Two handed fighting will have glancing blows on 50% of attacks with no feats, with 2hf, or i2hf. Taking the Greater Two Handed Fighting feat increases that rate to 75%. Twitching drops that number back down to 50%. Each level of two handed fighting feat line also increases the damage on each glancing blow.


Ravager Set and Glancing Blows
The way Ravager set works -- and this is something that very few people have been talking about -- is that it adds 2d6 to every single attack. Initially, people talked about it mostly as a damage over time thing. That is probably why very few builds take advantage of it. The DoT does still apply, but is difficult to take into account in DPS calculations.

That 2d6 (as well as the 1d4 from Tempest set) will not only apply after every swing, but will also attach to every glancing blow. For example, if you are wearing both sets and your glancing blow would have been for 30, you'll see something like 30+7+2 on your screen. That's a huge increase! Approximately 9 damage per second on your autoattack number just with one item (and much more if you are fighting more than one target). If your forte is taking on a pack of monsters, this is something to take seriously.

I should also note that the ravager set does not work on constructs or undead. Some people get around this by using a Frenzied Berzeker set to swap to against these types of foes.

[Steveohio]

I'm not really trying to argue with you here, but you do keep coming back to a lack of feats when you are a 2 monk splash. That splash actually allows you to keep your healing as good as it can get, as well as picking up 2 extra feats which you can then alocate towards dps. you seem to be saying that your hurting either your offense or healing, when in fact you have the ability to do both now. At a loss of DR and spells. Offense is good right?

Also those aren't my dps numbers. Most non WF builds aren't going to have a eSoS, they are gonna have min2 weapons, thus negating any need for it. I honestly have no clue how to calculate reliable dps numbers, because of the various factors that come along, such as casting. However its fairly obvious that the more dps feats you have the better your dps will be. And any other non-wf fvs can just get a esos and use it also, losing 4 dmg off the top and the lack of WF PA. Not a huge deal IMO.

Also, how can you disagree that those are the things that make a tank a tank?
Otherwise your just a DPS build, which is fine, and sure, you can do most everything in the game without that dedicated tank, however Elite and epic level raids they make it a whole lot easier. And yes, when you have a group full of top tier dps builds along with filling in the other requirements you do generally go through quests faster.

However, Id love to see some elite raids trying to agro kite suulo or harry around in elite with a non intimidating FVS. As a healer, once I caught wind of that proposed strategy I'd laugh my ass off and go join another group.

You seem to be making wild assertations here, yet in other threads you tell people not to mislead others.
firstly, that you do 3x more dmg than a fully specced out TWF soul
secondly, that you can do things other souls cannot, yet I've not seen any examples other than I hit harder so i can tank better, while an evasion based soul can actually complete more quests solo than a non evasion(those 3 you mention, but im sure theres more)
thirdly, that somehow with more feats, your dps and healing capabilities are worse than a pure
fourth, that tanks are about dps, not ac, hp, damage mitigation, and agro generation.
fifth, that a build with more feats neglects to take extend, when they could if they wanted to. player choice again I
sixth, that just by having the GTWF line you automatically suck at healing and suck at dps, so you should just go melee class.

Now, if you wanna say, you like the DR, more spells or the esos over greensteel more than a splash build thats fine. But to say that your build(pure) trumps all other fvs out there is pure folly which seems to be what your saying to me. Its not all that hard to have a WF 18/2 fvs build that has everything you have minus a few spells(which some dont feel the need for) and DR, but gain better dps and keeping the same healing capacity. Sure your buffing won't be as good, due to lack of certain spells, but more often than not you'll be running with a cleric in raids anyways, and I find buffing other people to be a pia and leave that to the silly clerics.

I myself, as a heavy splash 16/2/2 dwarf fvs/pal/monk that gets asked by virtually any pug i run with if I can heal, have 0 issues running as the only healer in epic or elite quests. Nor as the 2nd healer of 2 healers in any raids I've run, epic included. I know the limitations of my toon, and don't pretend to have the buffs you do, or the spell point pool of a pure. However I have certain things which no other FVS build out there has.

Such as elite saves + evasion, the highest hp possible without a healing penalty, and dual 2d8 x3 min2 greensteel weaponry(when i craft it) and full GTWF line along with all the metas for healing. The only thing I really miss out on can be made up through mneumonic potions(mass cures instead of mass heal takes more sp) or scrolls. The DR is negligable at best to me, and I'm not too hot on any of the capstone spells so much that I'd give up all the above.

Then again my character concept is different that yours and this whole thread is pretty much a giant roundabout with the same things repeated over and over, that there is not one single best build out there.

[Anthios888]

Steve, I think the essence of what you're saying is dead on. I just wanted to add that the epic Sword of Shadows really is a wonderful weapon for a character that is already using two-handed fighting. On some builds, just changing weapons adds as much as 50% DPS. Even if you cannot get an epic sword, a lightning II weapon tends to add between 15%-20% additional DPS. That is why so many are picking up the improved critical feat on builds that would otherwise have skipped it in mod 6.

For perspective, here's my DPS spread on my human favored soul. See how much of a difference there is between the mineral II and the SoS for this build, and how using the SoS without extra feats or gear does not really come close to competing with 2wf.

Rocka's DPS (not including haste boost*)

• Mineral II Greataxe -- 160 DPS (no twitch)
• Epic Sword of Shadows -- 239 DPS (no twitch)
• Earthgrab Heavy Picks - 268 DPS (need to recraft as one is +3 wis)
• Epic Sword of Shadows -- 304 DPS (twitch)
• Mineral II Khopeshes -- 307 DPS
• Lightning II Khopeshes - 310 DPS without power attack
• Epic Chaosblades -- 312 DPS
• Lightning II Khopeshes -- 340 DPS

40 STR
Epic Marilith Chain
Knost's Set
Shintao Set
Litany of the Dead
Power Attack (+1 barbarian enhancement)
50% sneak attacks
+8 Bard Song

*Haste boost adds about 7% attack speed increase over a 5-minute fight.

[Xithos]

Steve, I think the essence of what you're saying is dead on. I just wanted to add that the epic Sword of Shadows really is a wonderful weapon for a character that is already using two-handed fighting. On some builds, just changing weapons adds as much as 50% DPS. Even if you cannot get an epic sword, a lightning II weapon tends to add between 15%-20% additional DPS. That is why so many are picking up the improved critical feat on builds that would otherwise have skipped it in mod 6.

For perspective, here's my DPS spread on my human favored soul. See how much of a difference there is between the mineral II and the SoS for this build, and how using the SoS without extra feats or gear does not really come close to competing with 2wf.

Rocka's DPS (not including haste boost*)

Mineral II Greataxe -- 160 DPS (no twitch)
Epic Sword of Shadows -- 239 DPS (no twitch)
Earthgrab Heavy Picks - 291 DPS
Epic Sword of Shadows -- 304 DPS (twitch)
Epic Chaosblades -- 342 DPS
Mineral II Khopeshes -- 349 DPS
Lightning II Khopeshes - 352 DPS without power attack
Lightning II Khopeshes -- 384 DPS

40 STR
Epic Marilith Chain
Knost's Set
Shintao Set
Litany of the Dead
Power Attack (+1 barbarian enhancement)
50% sneak attacks
+8 Bard Song

*Haste boost adds about 7% attack speed increase over a 5-minute fight.

That looks like a good assesment of Raid Boss DPS considerations (DR not considered for Lightning Strike) given your gear and build. Another point of note in my mind is that when running most epics you will be getting a lot more sneak attack than just 50%; any rogue sporting radiance will be giving you max sneak attack and anytime a critter succumbs to a weighted stun, stunning blow, or monk fist you get them also. Most meleesouls I know sport Tharne's Goggles for the additional + to hit as well as the sneak and that will pull the Lightning Strike DPS ahead even further.

In the event that a mob is not under any of the above "Death sentence" conditions, a meleesoul is still a secondary DPS compared to classes like Fighter and Barb so you won't have the aggroe and still get your sneak attack damage. TWF benefits a great deal more than THF for sneak attack damage. Also, have you considered using the Verik's set to get your haste boosts up to 7 and then switching to the Shintao after you have exhausted them? I do that on mine and it seems to work fairly well

[Anthios888]

That looks like a good assesment of Raid Boss DPS considerations (DR not considered for Lightning Strike) given your gear and build. Another point of note in my mind is that when running most epics you will be getting a lot more sneak attack than just 50%; any rogue sporting radiance will be giving you max sneak attack and anytime a critter succumbs to a weighted stun, stunning blow, or monk fist you get them also. Most meleesouls I know sport Tharne's Goggles for the additional + to hit as well as the sneak and that will pull the Lightning Strike DPS ahead even further.

In the event that a mob is not under any of the above "Death sentence" conditions, a meleesoul is still a secondary DPS compared to classes like Fighter and Barb so you won't have the aggroe and still get your sneak attack damage. TWF benefits a great deal more than THF for sneak attack damage. Also, have you considered using the Verik's set to get your haste boosts up to 7 and then switching to the Shintao after you have exhausted them? I do that on mine and it seems to work fairly well

Thanks for the ideas and replies. I do use Tharne's goggles. I tend to use 50% as a baseline sneak attack number across all builds just to be fair. I didn't want to weigh my build any higher than the warforged.

The Verik's set is a nice idea, although I must say that I almost never use anything but the Torc. I am an addict and try to have aggro whenever possible (lots of guards and dr items and stuff). I put on the shintao set if I see a miss, and since I included it in the warforged builds, I thought I would also include it to show the potential.

I want to apologize that the numbers I provided were off. The swing speed in my calculator was still set to paladin with zeal instead of a slow old favored soul. I've adjusted my post accordingly. It still led me to the same conclusion/decisions.

[Mellkor]

I'm not really trying to argue with you here, but you do keep coming back to a lack of feats when you are a 2 monk splash. That splash actually allows you to keep your healing as good as it can get, as well as picking up 2 extra feats which you can then alocate towards dps. you seem to be saying that your hurting either your offense or healing, when in fact you have the ability to do both now. At a loss of DR and spells. Offense is good right? I meant offensive casting which really goes without saying for both builds

Also those aren't my dps numbers. Most non WF builds aren't going to have a eSoS, they are gonna have min2 weapons, thus negating any need for it. I honestly have no clue how to calculate reliable dps numbers, because of the various factors that come along, such as casting. However its fairly obvious that the more dps feats you have the better your dps will be. And any other non-wf fvs can just get a esos and use it also, losing 4 dmg off the top and the lack of WF PA. Not a huge deal IMO.

Also, how can you disagree that those are the things that make a tank a tank?
Otherwise your just a DPS build, which is fine, and sure, you can do most everything in the game without that dedicated tank, however Elite and epic level raids they make it a whole lot easier. And yes, when you have a group full of top tier dps builds along with filling in the other requirements you do generally go through quests faster. Which supports my view that tanks (by your definition) are worthless. In elite and epics we NEVER use tanks (as you define it), we find it easy enough to just slighty change our tactics by using aggro management that also does dps. We still complete epics and elite quests quickly via high DPS

However, Id love to see some elite raids trying to agro kite suulo or harry around in elite with a non intimidating FVS. As a healer, once I caught wind of that proposed strategy I'd laugh my ass off and go join another group. we dont have to kite them, we just beat them down. Works great for us

You seem to be making wild assertations here, yet in other threads you tell people not to mislead others.
firstly, that you do 3x more dmg than a fully specced out TWF soul
Yep, I do. Based on playing both, I still assert this. I don't put any faith in this magic DPS calculator that noone can seem to confirm or deny its validity or have available to use to duplicate results, or even peer review. I kill most things 2-3 times faster with this guy than my splash build did in the same quests on the same difficulties ( he wasnt as well equiped as this guy is, but had ok equipment). AND again, you are twisting what I said here, by adding things here I did not say. I base my statements on actual experience, not some number cruncher that cant possibly factor in every variable.

secondly, that you can do things other souls cannot, yet I've not seen any examples other than I hit harder so i can tank better, while an evasion based soul can actually complete more quests solo than a non evasion(those 3 you mention, but im sure theres more)
Again thats not what I said I never said an evasion soul can complete a quest a straight soul can not. There is no quest in this game where evasion is required to complete. There is no quest a straight soul cant do. I also provided several examples of things I have personally done with my straight FvS that I have never seen a splash FvS do

thirdly, that somehow with more feats, your dps and healing capabilities are worse than a pure Once again, evasion gimps you because you loose too much for the gain for so many reasons already discussed ad nauseum in this thread, if you still dont understand this after reading this thread, there is no point discussing it further, we will never agree on any aspect about it.


fourth, that tanks are about dps, not ac, hp, damage mitigation, and agro generation.
Of course they are, you seem to think a tank = bad DPS which makes him worthless if he cant hit the broad side of a barn.

fifth, that a build with more feats neglects to take extend, when they could if they wanted to. player choice again I
Fail to see a point here. Player choice?, yes. I agree.

sixth, that just by having the GTWF line you automatically suck at healing and suck at dps, so you should just go melee class.
Once again, this is not what I said or implied

Now, if you wanna say, you like the DR, more spells or the esos over greensteel more than a splash build thats fine. But to say that your build(pure) trumps all other fvs out there is pure folly which seems to be what your saying to me. Its not all that hard to have a WF 18/2 fvs build that has everything you have minus a few spells(which some dont feel the need for) and DR, but gain better dps and keeping the same healing capacity. Sure your buffing won't be as good, due to lack of certain spells, but more often than not you'll be running with a cleric in raids anyways, and I find buffing other people to be a pia and leave that to the silly clerics.The issues you speak of here are pretty darn important to a primary healer! And are some of the very reasons why a pure "trumps," as you say, a splash build healer FvS.

I myself, as a heavy splash 16/2/2 dwarf fvs/pal/monk that gets asked by virtually any pug i run with if I can heal, have 0 issues running as the only healer in epic or elite quests. Nor as the 2nd healer of 2 healers in any raids I've run, epic included. I know the limitations of my toon, and don't pretend to have the buffs you do, or the spell point pool of a pure. However I have certain things which no other FVS build out there has. I cant believe you have 0 issues as a primary healer, especially in epics and raids with a this build, especially with no 9th level spells and a lot fewer higher level spells, a much smaller SP pool, and especially (I am assuming) if you focused on spells that help yourself, and not the party so much.

Such as elite saves + evasion, the highest hp possible without a healing penalty, and dual 2d8 x3 min2 greensteel weaponry(when i craft it) and full GTWF line along with all the metas for healing. The only thing I really miss out on can be made up through mneumonic potions(mass cures instead of mass heal takes more sp) or scrolls. The DR is negligable at best to me, and I'm not too hot on any of the capstone spells so much that I'd give up all the above. DR is a major reason to go pure, as previously discussed, it really makse a big difference, in my experience as well as for the other reasons already discussed.

Then again my character concept is different that yours and this whole thread is pretty much a giant roundabout with the same things repeated over and over, that there is not one single best build out there.

Certainly agree with this. whole heartedly.

rebuttals in red in red.