Favored souls and Evasion. Not sold at all. In fact ur gimping urself.

[Anthios888]

Actually yes, he skips all the THF feats...

Let me give more background. I found one of my notepads when I was deciding on my own build.

Please keep in mind that the following numbers are specific to my build, 18 fvs / 1 ftr / 1 barbarian, when I was comparing between warforged and human with khopeshes. I have the advantage of fighter haste boost (not included) & barbarian power attack (included). When I was in favor of rerolling to warforged, I calculated 290 DPS for khopeshes and for 305 for SoS, in the most ideal DPS situations (trash mobs with no fortification or DR).

The warforged was using epic bloodstone, the ravager set (which the previous poster does not use), and greater two handed fighting. Ravager set adds 7 damager per swing, including on every glancing blow. It had an extra damage from starting with 18 strength instead of melkor's 16, and it also had that power attack enhancement. The 305 number was also calculated using twitch fighting. Subtracting the difference for 7 damage per swing for ravager set and greater two handed fighting, the warforged is far behind the khopesh build. Twitch brings it even further behind. It needed those three elements to compete.

Here's how I quantified greater two handed fighting for my build, Rocka, who was using greataxes and had either 38 or 40 strength (I can't recall). It came down to about 10% DPS -- equivalent to Tempest. Skipping tempest is something a ranger should think twice about, and generally non-tempest rangers do not consider themselves to be in the top tier of ranger DPS.

Since I do not have the calculator on this computer, I cannot give you a definite number for the abovementioned warforged's DPS. I hope this gives you some illustration of what I was talking about.

For reference, the khopesh build had the ability to use marilith chain, because it is a human, which opened up the trinket slot for litany of the dead (read: more to-hit). I am 90% sure it was using knost's set instead of ravager set to help fit things in. Also please note that for this particular build, lightning II khopeshes outdamages chaosblade just slightly on trash mobs (more or less comparable). On classes that have more dps to start with, the chaosblade tends to take the lead over both SOS and Lightning II.

In my prior calculations, I found that elf scimitars were nearly identical to khopesh assuming identical weapons (really surprised me!).

For me, it came down to the versatility. When the warforged wasn't wearing SoS, its DPS dropped by at least a quarter. I like the ability to wearing a weighted weapon in the offhand, of having a better selection of weaponry (wanted to use my earthgrab picks, smiting scimitars, etc etc). That works for me. Warforged works for many others, and it works quite well. They're one of the most accessible, playable builds out there.

What's really difficult about this discusussion is that it illustrates the problem with this thread. Some people are willing to get the "greater" two handed or two weapon fighting feats (and imp crit) by splashing on their favored souls. They may get evasion or other perks for doing so. Those who stay pure have to work with fewer feats but get a fantastic capstone. Both are great options! But, everything is situational. I feel it's wrong to overstate the DPS on a pure build that cannot access the extras, and at the same time, to minimize the loss of DR on those that can't. DDO has trade offs and this is exactly what makes building so personalized and rewarding.

edit - 90 DPS on the wf fvs came just from glancing blows, assuming single target.

[Anthios888]

Comparing stats is not a good way to come to this conclusion. LOL. Too many other factors come into play besides stats. I have encountered far too many DIVINE TWF builds that barely fight thier way out of a paper bag. OR the ones that are somewhat decent cant really heal a party very well in raids or epics and even then, still really dont do decent enough dps to replace a pure DPSer. There are much better class options for high DPS TWF. TWF Divine builds are really mediocre in comparison.

Now you're just making opinions. There are some really fantastic two weapon fighting builds out there that have every capability your build has. Look around a little more.

[Gercho]

Anthios, i think dps calculations have some value, but what about the to hit? i guess your calculations were assuming you hit with 2 on both chars, now a THF will have +4 to hit from eSOS -3 from power attack (-4 in your case) and the human twf will have -4 to hit from twf (i doubt you have otwf), so in the end the THF will have +4 or +5 to hit (+6 if you are not using epic weapons), is that makes you miss 10% of your attacks (besides the 1) then it makes a big difference.

On a side note, obviously mellkor doesnt cares about paper calculations, so you wont convince him using them

In the end, i still think there are no absolutes, and its a good thing, i lean for the mellkor build cause it seems easier to equip than the twf equivalent (eSOS seems much easier to get that just one epic chaosblade, or the epic marilith chain) and allows me to be pure FVS.

[Mellkor]

Let me give more background. I found one of my notepads when I was deciding on my own build.

Please keep in mind that the following numbers are specific to my build, 18 fvs / 1 ftr / 1 barbarian, when I was comparing between warforged and human with khopeshes. I have the advantage of fighter haste boost (not included) & barbarian power attack (included). When I was in favor of rerolling to warforged, I calculated 290 DPS for khopeshes and for 305 for SoS, in the most ideal DPS situations (trash mobs with no fortification or DR).

So it looks like to me the SoS is better, by your own numbers. an epic SoS would be even better. Also I am running other equipment and abilities you havent considered, such as Shintao set, (red dragon armor soon to be aquired) to name a few (I realize this is for your build) and all the WF PA enhancements,. And against DR mobs the THF build is even better since DR affects a lower percentage of damage per swing on the THF. Even by your own numbers I dont see how TWF is better, let alone "far behind" as you seem to claim. Your numbers seem to show that the THF is slightly better vs non DR mobs. THF only pulls ahead more VS DR mobs from there....

[Anthios888]

So it looks like to me the SoS is better, by your own numbers. an epic SoS would be even better. Also I am running other equipment and abilities you havent considered, such as Shintao set, (red dragon armor soon to be aquired) to name a few (I realize this is for your build) and all the WF PA enhancements,. And against DR mobs the THF build is even better since DR affects a lower percentage of damage per swing on the THF. Even by your own numbers I dont see how TWF is better, let alone "far behind" as you seem to claim. Your numbers seem to show that the THF is slightly better vs non DR mobs. THF only pulls ahead more VS DR mobs from there....

Sorry, no. My numbers were already including epic SoS. I can't remember if I included Shintao set -- I think I did, because I have the set on my build. It's possible I did not, as torc is standard for builds like this. It's one of those things that helps certain builds.

I'm not trying to attack -your build-. I am talking about the differences and advantages each style has. Your statements that you do 3x as much DPS are simply false, and while I appreciate the enthusiasm you have for your warforged, I think you're making a very misleading case. What you're not understanding is that a two weapon fighting build -can bypass the dr- where a two-handed fighting build can only do so by sacrificing a huge amount of damage. Pointing to crit numbers without taking into consideration that you're losing 15 or more damage every single swing is just betraying your lack of understanding.

By losing greater two handed fighting, not using the ravager set, not twitching, and with the other discrepancies I mentioned, I would estimate your DPS somewhere between 200 and 250. Remember that 80 of that 305 DPS was from glancing blows on the main target -- much of which came from the greater two handed fighting. The 305 is on a really top end, geared toon twitching its head off, If I get a break, I'll be happy to calculate your toon's DPS for you, but I'm not sure you want to hear the answer.

[Anthios888]

Anthios, i think dps calculations have some value, but what about the to hit? i guess your calculations were assuming you hit with 2 on both chars, now a THF will have +4 to hit from eSOS -3 from power attack (-4 in your case) and the human twf will have -4 to hit from twf (i doubt you have otwf), so in the end the THF will have +4 or +5 to hit (+6 if you are not using epic weapons), is that makes you miss 10% of your attacks (besides the 1) then it makes a big difference.

On a side note, obviously mellkor doesnt cares about paper calculations, so you wont convince him using them

In the end, i still think there are no absolutes, and its a good thing, i lean for the mellkor build cause it seems easier to equip than the twf equivalent (eSOS seems much easier to get that just one epic chaosblade, or the epic marilith chain) and allows me to be pure FVS.

What a well-reasoned post. That's exactly how I feel about it. I chose the two weapon version for myself for reasons of versatility, but I might even make the warforged just to enjoy the DR aspect of favored souls at the expense of DPS.

Here is a comparison for you to see the to-hit differences between the "standard" builds we're talking about. As you can see, all are very viable (and as viable as each other).

Attack Roll (Level 20 Warforged Lord of Blades Favored Soul)
20 Base Attack Bonus
14 STR modifier (18 base + 5 levels + 2 tome + 6 ravager ring + 3 exceptional + 2 yugo + 2 rage = 38)
4 Spectral Gloves epic
3 Divine Favor
10 Sword of Shadows
1 Child of the Lord of Blades
4 Greater Heroism
1 Haste
5 Backstabbing +5
-8 power attack
-4 twitch fighting
-----------
50 to-hit

Attack Roll (Level 20 Khopeshes - Cleric or Favored Soul + 2 yugo + 2 rage)
20 Base Attack Bonus
15 STR modifier (18 base + 5 levels +2 tome + 1 litany + 1 human + 6 ring + 3 exceptional + 2 yugo + 2 rage = 40)
4 Spectral Gloves epic
3 Divine Favor
6 Chaosblade
1 Litany of the Dead
4 Greater Heroism
1 Haste
5 Backstabbing +5
-4 two weapon fighting without oversized
-5 power attack
-----------
50 to-hit


Attack Roll (Level 20 Elf Valenar Favored Soul)
20 Base Attack Bonus
15 STR modifier (18 base + 5 levels + 2 tome + 1 litany + 7 epic item + 3 exceptional + 2 yugo + 2 rage = 40)
4 Spectral Gloves epic
3 Divine Favor
5 Greensteel Lightning II scimitar
1 Child of the Elf Scimitar Dude
1 Litany of the Dead
4 Greater Heroism
1 Haste
5 Backstabbing +5
2 Valenar enhancements
-4 two weapon fighting without oversized
-5 power attack
-----------
52 to-hit


These seem to be reasonable to-hit numbers across the board for a healer self-buffed.


Also.. please keep in mind

• Anyone with proficiency can use epic SoS for these dire to-hit situations we're all so concerned about. I will have an epic SoS on my khopesh favored soul as soon as I hit level 20 again. If the build needs that extra to-hit (+4 from 2wf, +4 for +10 weapon), it's there.
• Things like shintao set (which I keep around as a swap for hard-to-hit situations) would apply to all builds but are kind of situational. Good to keep in mind if you need to boost your hitting.
• Backstabbing is never a guarantee, but it benefits all builds and should be included in a divine melee's gear. Two weapon fighting is disproportionately advantaged.
• Effect procs like tempest set and ravager set benefit two weapon fighting and two-handed fighting equally as they apply to glancing blows

P.S. -- Tou don't need epic chaosblades, or any epic gear to hit similar DPS on a favored soul. Regular old Marilith chain at seeker 6 is a great item. Lightning II khopeshes or scimitars are about equivalent. Just subtract -1 to-hit. For a greatsword, there is obviously much wider difference between epic and greensteel.

[Gercho]

well, i was missing the -4 to hit from twitching...

[Mellkor]

These DPS calculations seems too much like vodoo to me. I am basing my observations on actual practice, not theory. These DPS calculators have proven themselves to be hogwash in my experience useing them. People focus way too much on them and there are too many factors to consider, invariably some get left out. I am not sure what you mean by you bypassing DR and I cannot. if a mob has dr 15 as in your example, it is only a small % of my total dam output that it is almost insignificant, so I have no need to use a DR bypassing weapon. In the case of TWF it is a significant factor because that 15 dr IS a significant chunk of your damage per hit. You dont seem to understand this yourself! Who cares about 15 dr when a normal hit is 80 or so and a crit is 300 or so. Also when you use a weapon to bypass DR you end up doing less dps than your best weapon vs a fully vulneable mob. SO again your theoretical numbers mean squat in those cases.

[Anthios888]

it Is Only A Small % Of My Total Dam Output That It Is Almost Insignificant, So I Have No Need To Use A Dr Bypassing Weapon. .

Lol.

[Anthios888]

Back to the original topic. My point is that the people who are getting evasion are losing out on the capstone. I love the capstone. It's super uber. In terms of sole survivability, I think OP nick is right as always that it helps you more universally than evasion.

But the feats don't fit in on many pure builds. Look at the corners Mellkor has had to cut to achieve his goals on a warforged favored soul.

Those who are doing 18 favored soul / 2 monk (or similar) are not only getting evasion, but they're getting two feats and some new enhancements and proficiencies. Evasion is a nice second best to DR / 10. Those two feats translate into a lot of DPS whether you are talking about greater two weapon fighting or greater two handed fighting.

On your standard warforged favored soul (I am using Melkor as an example, because he has a very typical and effective build), the additional damage difference from glancing blows using the feats is nearly 10% increase in total DPS. It's almost like a ranger going without tempest.

Here's an example of how the attention to details can change DPS around. Whether you believe in calculators or not, every player can do the basic math to see that when you're adding consistent damage sources, you're going to do more damage per second.

You don't have to believe my numbers. Just think about how adding almost 30% attack speed would increase your effectiveness. Think about how a ravager set, which adds 7 damage (2d6) to every glancing blow and attack, would increase your damage. Think about how having 75% of your attacks have glancing blows and having those glancing blows be more potent would increase your damage.

Melkor's Favored Soul - 248 DPS
Melkor's Favored Soul against DR - 162 DPS

• 16 power attack + 13 strength modifier +2 favored soul feat + 2 favored soul enhancements + 2 shintao monk set bonus + 10 weapon (Epic Sword of Shadows) + 3 divine favor +8 bard song = + 56 damage
• Backstabbing from Tharne's Goggles 50% of the time
• Seeker 6
• Force ritual on Epic SoS
• No twitch; 102 attacks / minute
• No Two Handed Fighting feats; Glancing Blows on 50% of attacks with no additional glancing blow damage
• 0% fort, 0 DR opponent in first number
• DR / 15 and 25% fortification in second number

Look at the possible upgrades you could make on your own platform:

Melee-specced Warforged Favored Soul - 356 DPS
Melee-specced Warforged Favored Soul against DR - 244 DPS

• 16 power attack + 15 strength modifier +2 favored soul feat + 2 favored soul enhancements + 2 shintao monk set bonus + 10 weapon (Epic Sword of Shadows) + 3 divine favor +8 bard song = + 58 damage
• Backstabbing from Tharne's Goggles 50% of the time
• Seeker 8
• Ravager set -- 2d6 on every attack and glancing blow
• Force ritual on Epic SoS
• Twitch; 130 attacks / minute (more possible with practice - Shade says 138)
• Greater Two Handed Fighting feats; Glancing Blows on 50% of attacks (reduced because of twitch) with additional glancing blow damage
• 0% fort, 0 DR opponent in first number
• DR / 15 and 25% fortification in second number

This is a very generous amount of DR and fortification to consider. I am trying to keep this build in the most favorable situation possible. Much more DR or fortification and the character would need to switch to a mineral II to overcome the loss of dps from DR.

The second setup does almost 144% the DPS of the first build. The people who choose to splash for feats are not getting "nothing" in return.

It's not just "evasion builds" vs. "non evasion builds". There's a lot more to it. So many people are looking at a /2 monk splash and all they can think of is an ac / finesse build -- not a true strength build. The extra feats allow for the same metamagics while still giving some survivability in the form of evasion.

Build variety is a good thing! Play what you enjoy. It's just bad form to discount every other option out there, and tends to keep you from being your best .

[Gunga]

It's just bad form to discount every other option out there, and tends to keep you from being your best .

You're smart.

[Anthios888]

You're smart.

You're cool. Will you be my Valentine?!

[aristarchus1000]

Fantastic summary by Anthios888, and coincides with my damage calculations (apparantly I need to spread around rep). By the way, whether you believe in dps calculators or not, the strength based Elf build (I use Gratch's since he has a long running post in this forum) had around 250 dps as well, and that is using Min2s. Much easier to acquire compared to the eSOS. Better weapons than Min2's are also available on a situational basis.

(for what it's worth, I have some doubts on dps calculators, but they do represent raid boss/portal dps pretty well, since things like reach and glancing don't really apply. Against trash, I actually think TWF is better because utility of vorpals/disruptors/weighted)

My WF FvS is pretty much on hold. The DR is certainly nice, but my Elf 18/2 generally completes the same quest using the same methods 50-75% faster. Damage is better, plus the utility of using double vorpals, disruptors, or greater banes, etc speeds things up considerably. It sometimes requires extra heal scrolls, but often not since the healing is less effecting on the WF. (it takes me 15 minutes to farm up enough gold for 100 heal scrolls. the cost is trivial either way). Sometimes it requires some more skill, but the same can be argued for playing without Evasion.

Neither the DR or Evasion is required in any build (or else all other classes other pure FvS are gimp), but you need to gear up properly if you don't have it. For me, that's a Bloodrage Symbiont for 5 DR (or a warchanter), and 4 clickies from shroud T2 weapons. It's not as good as static DR, but it's pretty darn close most of the time. I think with Earthen Guard DT robes (if I ever get it) I'll have all the DR I want.

Monk 2 is choice, and very reasonable one, with pros and cons. The main thing I miss by not going pure is lack of True Rez, and i'm also missing Mass Death Ward. This is annoying, but not game breaking, imo. At least not any more game breaking than not having evasion.

Neither is gimp, let's not kid ourselves. Let's just enjoy the fact that the FvS is a very strong character class and both the pure and 2 monk options are perfectly viable. I have personally found that I have to backup or raise the pure build cleric/fvs on raids because they tend to drop dead in raids. I'm sure people on this thread are better players, so I'm not judging the build. Still, I'm definitely enjoying my raid survivability and my character, and I encourage everyone to do the same without calling each other names.

[AylinIsAwesome]

For myself, I prefer pure FvS because I like having 3 of each level 8 and level 9 spells, and the DR is nice.

But I also recognize the benefits of taking a Monk splash, and I don't think it's gimp. It's just that I like the pure ones better myself.

What does irk me though, is claiming that one type of FvS is someone claiming that a FvS is gimp because that person would rather play a different kind of soul.

[Xithos]

These DPS calculations seems too much like vodoo to me. I am basing my observations on actual practice, not theory. These DPS calculators have proven themselves to be hogwash in my experience useing them. People focus way too much on them and there are too many factors to consider, invariably some get left out. I am not sure what you mean by you bypassing DR and I cannot. if a mob has dr 15 as in your example, it is only a small % of my total dam output that it is almost insignificant, so I have no need to use a DR bypassing weapon. In the case of TWF it is a significant factor because that 15 dr IS a significant chunk of your damage per hit. You dont seem to understand this yourself! Who cares about 15 dr when a normal hit is 80 or so and a crit is 300 or so. Also when you use a weapon to bypass DR you end up doing less dps than your best weapon vs a fully vulneable mob. SO again your theoretical numbers mean squat in those cases.

The point being made is that the epic Sword of Shadows although an amazing weapon is not even close to being the best once you start cranking up the difficulty on what you are running. The 15 DR you mention is not a big deal, but once you start getting into DR 30 and DR 60 territory the epic SoS is not a good choice and you should use something else; Anthios understands this because DPS calculations are not complete "Voodoo". Furthermore, a TWF FvS can use the Sword of Shadows on mobs almost as effectively as a WF FvS because of the lack of Two-handed Fighting feats on the WF variants. If you have the energy you can play around with some numbers using A_O's DPS calc found here http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...=1#post2354192 or make your own. Finally, TWF are not limited to using their best DR bypasser on trash mobs. I have Lightning Strike Khopeshes for non-DR and also have a radiance Scimitar I use from time to time.

[Mellkor]

Well noone has resorted to name calling. LOL. nothing wrong with a good debate.

Still, I can do things on my WF Favored soul that my TWF or any TWF divine build I have grouped with cant do, such as tank sulu in von or horoth in TOD because he hits so much harder with that epic SoS.

To each his own.

[Mellkor]

Back to the original topic. My point is that the people who are getting evasion are losing out on the capstone. I love the capstone. It's super uber. In terms of sole survivability, I think OP nick is right as always that it helps you more universally than evasion.

But the feats don't fit in on many pure builds. Look at the corners Mellkor has had to cut to achieve his goals on a warforged favored soul.

Those who are doing 18 favored soul / 2 monk (or similar) are not only getting evasion, but they're getting two feats and some new enhancements and proficiencies. Evasion is a nice second best to DR / 10. Those two feats translate into a lot of DPS whether you are talking about greater two weapon fighting or greater two handed fighting.

On your standard warforged favored soul (I am using Melkor as an example, because he has a very typical and effective build), the additional damage difference from glancing blows using the feats is nearly 10% increase in total DPS. It's almost like a ranger going without tempest.

Here's an example of how the attention to details can change DPS around. Whether you believe in calculators or not, every player can do the basic math to see that when you're adding consistent damage sources, you're going to do more damage per second.

You don't have to believe my numbers. Just think about how adding almost 30% attack speed would increase your effectiveness. Think about how a ravager set, which adds 7 damage (2d6) to every glancing blow and attack, would increase your damage. Think about how having 75% of your attacks have glancing blows and having those glancing blows be more potent would increase your damage.

Melkor's Favored Soul - 248 DPS
Melkor's Favored Soul against DR - 162 DPS

• 16 power attack + 13 strength modifier +2 favored soul feat + 2 favored soul enhancements + 2 shintao monk set bonus + 10 weapon (Epic Sword of Shadows) + 3 divine favor +8 bard song = + 56 damage
• Backstabbing from Tharne's Goggles 50% of the time
• Seeker 6
• Force ritual on Epic SoS
• No twitch; 102 attacks / minute
• No Two Handed Fighting feats; Glancing Blows on 50% of attacks with no additional glancing blow damage
• 0% fort, 0 DR opponent in first number
• DR / 15 and 25% fortification in second number

Look at the possible upgrades you could make on your own platform:

Melee-specced Warforged Favored Soul - 356 DPS
Melee-specced Warforged Favored Soul against DR - 244 DPS

• 16 power attack + 15 strength modifier +2 favored soul feat + 2 favored soul enhancements + 2 shintao monk set bonus + 10 weapon (Epic Sword of Shadows) + 3 divine favor +8 bard song = + 58 damage
• Backstabbing from Tharne's Goggles 50% of the time
• Seeker 8
• Ravager set -- 2d6 on every attack and glancing blow
• Force ritual on Epic SoS
• Twitch; 130 attacks / minute (more possible with practice - Shade says 138)
• Greater Two Handed Fighting feats; Glancing Blows on 50% of attacks (reduced because of twitch) with additional glancing blow damage
• 0% fort, 0 DR opponent in first number
• DR / 15 and 25% fortification in second number

This is a very generous amount of DR and fortification to consider. I am trying to keep this build in the most favorable situation possible. Much more DR or fortification and the character would need to switch to a mineral II to overcome the loss of dps from DR.

The second setup does almost 144% the DPS of the first build. The people who choose to splash for feats are not getting "nothing" in return.

It's not just "evasion builds" vs. "non evasion builds". There's a lot more to it. So many people are looking at a /2 monk splash and all they can think of is an ac / finesse build -- not a true strength build. The extra feats allow for the same metamagics while still giving some survivability in the form of evasion.

Build variety is a good thing! Play what you enjoy. It's just bad form to discount every other option out there, and tends to keep you from being your best .

The only significant difference here, really is twitch. The ravenger set, GTWF, and seeker 8 are relatively minor.

[Steveohio]

How does having your weapon hit harder in any way effect your tanking ability?

Also, debating dps #'s based on teh biggah hits isn't exactly scientific and years of parsing other games dps will generally(not always)tell you that more swings = more dps.

Adding in the on-hit effects such as vorpal also gives a non-dps means of killing at roughly 2x the probability, 8 attacks vs 4. A pure soul that wants all the healing feats just cannot get all the melee feats to boot, thats where the monk splash matters + the evasion and other stuff. Otherwise we would see alot more 2rogue/18fvs, but theres roughly 25x more monk splashes out there than rogue.

Again its a matter of preference.

[Mellkor]

How does having your weapon hit harder in any way effect your tanking ability?

Also, debating dps #'s based on teh biggah hits isn't exactly scientific and years of parsing other games dps will generally(not always)tell you that more swings = more dps.

Adding in the on-hit effects such as vorpal also gives a non-dps means of killing at roughly 2x the probability, 8 attacks vs 4. A pure soul that wants all the healing feats just cannot get all the melee feats to boot, thats where the monk splash matters + the evasion and other stuff. Otherwise we would see alot more 2rogue/18fvs, but theres roughly 25x more monk splashes out there than rogue.

Again its a matter of preference.

I epics vorpals dont work, or most on hit effects for that matter. With a lot of mobs with DR in epics, hitting hard with a weapon matters the harder you hit, the less impact DR has, its that simple. As for more damage per swing affecting tanking ability???????!! I think that is self evident. LOL

[Steveohio]

Really, so you take less incoming damage per hit by doing more outgoing damage per hit?
Hows that work for you?

Is this like the fuzzy math where you do 3x the dps of a twf with no thf feats?

Your correct on the bigger hits bypass DR better and the epic vorpal thing, but you do have to actually do quests before you can stoll into epic. Albeit we all aim for the end game with builds, there is other content besides epic.