Hard Rock / Heavy Metal. WF,

[Seelowe]

I have a habbit of lurking on the forums everytime I am about to roll a class I have not played before. same goes for my bard project, so after looking at several bard builds out there I have come up with something that seems appealing to me.

now, what I would appreciate is for some of the ppl that have hands on experience with playing a bard to take a look at the build and point out any obvious flaws, shortcomings, mistakes, etc.

the concept is a warchanter build, melee focused, taking a spash of 2 fighter and 2 barbarian for the extra feats/rage/dmg. he keeps the full 2hf line, IC-slashing, one toughness, extend and maximize.

I am not quite sure about the maximize there, considering swapping it for Force of Personality. I suppose that will depend on if I want to be more selfish and keep myself able to cast while in melee or simply use the mass cures to help the healers top off the group between fights. still torn about this but I am leaning towards the latter. after all, this build would lose out a lot if it doesn't rage/madstone etc as often as it can.

so, here is the general template:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.32
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Heavy Metal
Level 20 Chaotic Neutral Warforged Male
(2 Fighter \ 2 Barbarian \ 16 Bard) 
Hit Points: 312
Spell Points: 590 
BAB: 16\16\21\26\26
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 9
Will: 8

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    24
Dexterity             8                     8
Constitution         16                    20
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom                6                     6
Charisma             16                    20

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

[B]
[/COLOR]
Level 1 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+3)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Perform (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Spell (1): Expeditious Retreat


Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting


Level 3 (Barbarian)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1.5)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 4 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 5 (Fighter)
Skill: Concentration (+0.5)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack


Level 6 (Bard)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Swim (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Spell (1): Focusing Chant


Level 7 (Bard)
Skill: Perform (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+3)
Spell (1): Remove Fear


Level 8 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Perform (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Rage
Spell (2): Soundburst


Level 9 (Bard)
Skill: Haggle (+2)
Skill: Perform (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Spell (2): Blur
Spell (1): Cure Light Wounds


Level 10 (Bard)
Skill: Haggle (+3)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 11 (Bard)
Skill: Haggle (+3)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (3): Displacement
Spell (2): Invisibility
Spell (3): Haste


Level 12 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+2)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Spell (3): Good Hope


Level 13 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 14 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (3): Cure Serious Wounds
Spell (4): Freedom of Movement
Spell (4): Otto's Sphere of Dancing


Level 15 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Spell (4): Dimension Door


Level 16 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 17 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (4): Dominate Person
Spell (5): Greater Heroism
Spell (5): Mass Cure Light Wounds


Level 18 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Spell (5): Mass Suggestion


Level 19 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Detect Secret Doors
Spell (5): Shadow Walk
Spell (6): Mass Cure Moderate Wounds
Spell (6): Otto's Irresistable Dance
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song III
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song IV
Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness I
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery I
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery II
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery III
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I
Enhancement: Warforged Inscribed Armor I
Enhancement: Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude I
Enhancement: Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude II

any comments/critique and flaming welcome

[Ponza69]

go true neutral

[Seelowe]

good. if that is the only thing sticking out we are on a good path
I am well aware that true neutral protects you from certain allignment damage etc but in the particular guy it was more of a flavor thing.

also contemplating giving him some of the first DR feats in the AP-department.

[Valakai]

Seems solid. Would drop maximise as well as weapon focus as you will be raging most of the time anyways. Have you considered barb 6 / Bard 14. A better split imho so you get barbs 1st prc and better rages. The DR enhancements help at early levels but later when you have songs and maybe stoneskin clickies they become kind of obsolete. You dont really need cha that high too either so I would be tempted to squeeze a few points of it to con or str but it does help with UMD.

[Bacab]

You really do not want to drop below 15 lvls of BRD. Also you should consider lowering your CHR. It does not need to be so high. Unless you are a Pure BRD...your spellcasting will be really bad. Buffs will be fine but offensive spellcasting will be gimped (which is fine).

15 lvls of BRD for the next inspire courage BTW.

[Valakai]

15 levels for the AC song or some other reason? Yes for end game raids it is a good thing to have but not 100% necessary dont think.

Dont think I have ever been in a raid group where we were like oh no. No bard?!? We cant do it without a bard. ((even though all love the bard buffs dont think they are considered mandatory to complete?))

I would say the barb 6 gives you so much more DPS its a good tradeoff for the AC song, but to each their own.

[Seelowe]

first of all, thanks for the responses.

I am not prepared to go less than 15 bard. it is the absolute minimum, since I need/want ac songs as part of this build. I want this guy to be able to give the party/guild everything they could ask/expect from a warchanter but add some dps to it compared to what most pure bards bring to the table. I have no intention of ranging anything. he will be all up in there swinging his minII all over the place I also need/want umd for no- or "close to no"-fail repair scrolls along with all the other caster goodies.

as for weapon focus, I can't really drop it, because I will go warchanter and it is a prerequisite for it.

lvl 16 gives me access to lvl 6 spells like mass cure moderate and irresistable dance. I like the prospect of having access to those.
are you saying, that the spell penetration check will make irresistable unusable? assuming +2 cha tome, +6 cha and +spell pen item?

if I was not going to go with the 16/2/2 build the alternative build was 15bard/4fighter/1barbarian for the extra +2 to damage with slashing, 5% extra fighter haste boots and feats. but as I said, I like the access to lvl 6 spells. unless I can be convinced that both mass moderate and otto irresistable will be useless on him^^

[Rusty_Can]

are you saying, that the spell penetration check will make irresistable unusable? assuming +2 cha tome, +6 cha and +spell pen item?

Spell Penetration checks are not affected by your CHA score, but by your caster level (and items and enhancements and feats ofc...).

[Seelowe]

ty for clarifying that, as I said this is exactly why I come to the forums first when rolling a toon I have no experience with.
so would you say that 16 caster levels would render otto's irresistable useless?

p.s. I was also quoting my cha items to give a rough idea of what type of spell points he will have to work with when capped it might just not cut it to throw some buffs, while also using maximized cure moderates etc.

[Seelowe]

seems there is nothing really wrong with the concept then. rolling up^^

[rest]

I built a WF bard. 18/2 bard fighter. He's awesome. Uses the THF feats and enhancements and weilds a Min II Great axe. I have a friend who rolled up a bard with the same class split, but uses TWF and khopeshes. It's a really fun build, thats for sure. Once you can start reconstructing yourself via scrolls, it gets even better!

My starting stats were a bit different than yours, and the only CC spell I really use is the irresistable dance, so having a charisma of only 20 (after +2 tome and +6 item)doesn't hurt him at all. In fact, I was thinking of doing a lesser reincarnate and pumping his CON a bit and lowering his CHA. Unraged weilding his Min II (with exceptional con) I have an even 400 hp. I still need to get a 6 con GFL belt from amarath. I've been lazy.

Here is a link to him on myDDO. Usually wears the warchanter necklace and a bloodstone. Must have been selling when I logged him out last

Still not really sure why is is CN. TN probably would have been more beneficial. Ah well c'est la vie.


Have fun with your bard!

[Rusty_Can]

so would you say that 16 caster levels would render otto's irresistable useless?

Useless? No. It will work perfectly against no-SR foes; as for those who have SR, Spell Penetration checks involve rolling 1d20: you will need to roll a bit higher than pure bards or 18/2 builds.

[Seelowe]

well, ty for the response
reason I ask is on epic desert/von quests on my casters irresistable works awesome. I am aware the non pure build can not compare to that but I would at least want the benefit of it on regular content and a chance at it for epic^^
fascinate paired with sprint boost should make up for it though I believe von 6 is proof of that I'd say^^

[Zub0]

I just started on a WF bard myself, and have enjoyed every moment of leveling up to 4 First I actually wanted to build a bard splashed with levels of other classes, but then I started looking at what I would sacrifice by giving up 1-4 bard levels and changed my mind. With the 28 points I had to distribute I landed on these starting stats: 16str, 14dex, 14con, 10 int, 6wis, 12cha.

Empower spell seems like an odd choice to me if you are focusing on melee instead of the offensive spells. I'd do that force of personality swap you mentioned yourself. Some other options are mental toughness, cleave or a second toughness feat.

Some of the spell choices you've made seem peculiar to me as well.
The first example is Expeditious retreat. Unless you use it real often the anger's step boots from one of the Korthos island quests should be enough to keep you going until you can cast haste.
Remove fear? o.O Perhaps I lack some end-game knowledge, but as far as I know fear isn't that big an issue! Again a clickie item might help you on those occasions where it could be useful. Or perhaps you should team up with a paladin? :P

Oh and since you have the two first tiers of warforged great weapon aptitude picking up the third one might be good too! ... and while we are at the enhancements: Inscribed armor? why? I'm 98% sure that bards does not have arcane spell failure in light armor. When I rolled a wf sorcerer I saw spell failure chance rolls, but I haven't seen any on the bard!

[excess]

(...)

I'd do that force of personality swap you mentioned yourself. Some other options are mental toughness, cleave or a second toughness feat.

(...)

Inscribed armor? why? I'm 98% sure that bards does not have arcane spell failure in light armor. When I rolled a wf sorcerer I saw spell failure chance rolls, but I haven't seen any on the bard!

1) Mental toughness is really uneeded on a melee warchanter type bard - particularly in light of how many feats you'll need to do significant damage. FoP, again particularly on a melee warchanter with lowish cha, is really overdone - bards have great will save progression, so that -1 modifier is really not as big a deal as on a fighter/barb/etc.

2) Inscribed armor for UMDing - sucks to hit no fail heal only to have it fail at a crucial time because of arcane spell failure...

I went THF with 16/8/16/15/6/10 as a 28pt. WF and took 2 fighter and 2 rogue levels... used the extra int to get better DD/Search, full rogue skills without sacrificing any important skill and grabbed insightful reflexes - at 20 int my reflex save is the same as it would have likely ended up as had I gone TWF.

[Seelowe]

indeed, I am not too worried about spellpoints on this guy to justify mental toughness. a concordant opposition item (along with the + to cha skills you want on a bard) or two will benefit him much more since he will be constantly engaged in melee. cleave is a controversial choice and I don't really see myself going that way on top of the full 2h line.

by empower magic I assume you mean maximize. now, that is in the build bc if you don't have that you might as well not lose any time casting mass cures at all on this guy. it is not intended for use with offensive spells, simply with mass cures on the party. again, for sp-generation concordant opposition items should be sufficient given his melee role.

as for the spells. the ones listed are the initial choices while he is levelling up. so, as they become obsolete they will get switched out for others. not that there are that many awesome low level bard spells but anyway.

specifically for expeditious... this build only gets haste at lvl 11. until then there is no way the clickie is going to cut it. how long does that last, 60 or 90 seconds if I remember correctly? one of the build defining parts of this guy is exp. retreat/haste + sprint boost + fascinate. it is just that awesome. once he gets haste, sure you can expeditious out.

same deal for remove fear. at early levels you or your party members run around feared quite often. obviously it won't be the #1 concern while running ToD but by then you can swap it out. I seriously have trouble finding many useful spells, that don't require an offensive dc/SP check in the spell list.

as for inscribed armor, I was told the same thing that was mentioned for heal scrolls for reconstruct scrolls, which will be his primary source of healing once he hits the required umd. now, if that is correct I will stick with inscribed. If I find out it is not, I would switch it out but as it is definitely keeping it. you want to have 100% chances at self healing while running around the islands in epic von6 cuz you won't get a 2nd try if you need it.

thanks for the feedback!