An Example of Solo Arcane Archer Play (Video)

[Zachski]

Waaaaaaaaay too many people hung up in this thread about silly points.

"Just pull out melee weapons and finish them off quicker!"

Uhh, it's not about speed, it's about efficiency. A barbarian in the same situation would take damage which means that he'd eventually have to chug potions or grab a hireling to heal him, or else die of attrition. Taking no damage is the best way to mitigate damage.

"It's in Vale"

Well gee, it's basically a HOW-TO video. It shouldn't matter if it's there, Korthos, or end-game content. Don't get hung up on this little detail when this has been explained in the thread. Reading is your friend!

"Good for soloing, but not for party"

Thank you Team Obvious. Did you happen to read the thread title? He's demonstrating solo tactics. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Creeper]

Uhh, it's not about speed, it's about efficiency. A barbarian in the same situation would take damage which means that he'd eventually have to chug potions or grab a hireling to heal him, or else die of attrition. Taking no damage is the best way to mitigate damage.

There are a lot of things wrong with this, and I love to pick apart rude posts.

Uhh, it's not about speed, it's about efficiency.

That is a contradiction. But I digress, it’s not about speed or efficiency according to you.
Did you read the thread title? He's demonstrating solo tactics. Nothing more, nothing less.

A barbarian in the same situation would take damage which means that he'd eventually have to chug potions or grab a hireling to heal him, or else die of attrition.

A silly point. Not if it was a barbarian with some degree of focus on his own self-preservation. When I watched the video I saw this character take damage. But, no matter, as you said yourself, he's demonstrating solo tactics. Nothing more, nothing less—so why are you bringing barbarians into it?

Taking no damage is the best way to mitigate damage.

A noble goal. Unfortunately taking no damage is a luxury that comes with a high and fleeting price in DDO. 1d20. Coincidently, doing an extreme amount of damage to your target and killing it quickly has become the best and most accepted form of damage mitigation, It even works on Epic.

Well gee, it's basically a HOW-TO video. It shouldn't matter if it's there, Korthos, or end-game content. Don't get hung up on this little detail when this has been explained in the thread. Reading is your friend!

A how to what video? How to run backward with auto-attack turned on? I read the thread title as you suggested; no where in that title did the words “how-to” appear.

The way I read this thread was, it was meant to an example of solo arcane archer play, but then while reading the actual thread I learned it was meant to be a “look, here is evidence that arcane archers don’t suck.” This innuendo is what has caused everyone to make what you refer to as ‘silly points’ which you yourself even get caught up in with your references to Barbarians needing to chug pots.

[AnsharDarkangel]

The way I read this thread was, it was meant to an example of solo arcane archer play, but then while reading the actual thread I learned it was meant to be a “look, here is evidence that arcane archers don’t suck.” This innuendo is what has caused everyone to make what you refer to as ‘silly points’ which you yourself even get caught up in with your references to Barbarians needing to chug pots.

What I said in the video is that Arcane Archers are Solo Viable (because they have a way to mitigate almost all incoming damage with a tactic that only works in solo play). I will not make the argument that Ranged Rangers do damage comparable to melee. That was never the point.

I was, at one point, interested in finding out what the actual disparity was, so that people know what they're getting into and so that I could have a percentage idea of how much or how little damage I was doing compared to a Dual-wielding Khopesh Tempest Ranger. That would allow people to make an informed choice about choosing to stay at range versus the benefits of closing to melee.

I was also interested in knowing how much more damage a Dual-wielding Khopesh Tempest Ranger does compared to a Dual-wielding Arcane Archer (With the appropriate improved critical feat) wielding Kukris or something similar that doesn't impede their attack bonuses.

This information would do several things:
1-It would identify exactly how far behind melee dps ranged dps is as of Update 3.
2-It would inform those making builds on how to optimize their dps.
3-It would let the Archer know whether or not it's worth it to close to melee depending on how many enemies they're currently shooting at once.

For Example:
Let's say Ranged Arcane Archer DPS is exactly one half of Dual Wielding Tempest DPS (many would argue this is being far too generous, but let's continue for the sake of argument). This would tell an Archer that if they can shoot 2 enemies with each shot that they don't need to close to melee until only one mob remains (it would also tell an archer that they must melee single boss targets or lose half of their damage in trade for less incoming damage). If it was 33% of melee damage then you would need to hit 3 mobs with every shot (or, more likely, between 4 and 2 on average, which is about our optimal situation, currently).

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I think an examination like that would do far more for the Ranger community than all the bickering I've seen on both sides of the argument. Also it would, if the majority is totally correct in this matter and ranged DPS is still lagging woefully behind, give us real numbers to bring to the attention of the developers and pick a target number (say 33% or 50%) of melee damage that we would like to be balanced at. Personally, I think 75% of melee damage (averaged, including Manyshot) is a fair trade off for the relative safety that Archery provides, and it rewards Archers for being tactically minded and lining up targets for multiple hits. That's just an opinion, however, and I'd welcome dissenting opinion on the number.

The bottom line for me is that Solo Viability (as I see it) is simply having a good tactic for staying alive while dealing damage, even if that damage is 20% or less of the norm outside of Manyshot. If I can line up 5 targets at 20% damage per shot, I'm dealing the same damage (assuming it's 20%, I have no idea) as a Melee character with little or no incoming damage.

I chose the demon area of the vale because of the Barbazu, honestly. If I had chosen Reavers instead and perched/kited giants I'm sure I would have gotten feedback saying that my tactics were lame, telling me my dps is still low, and that I wouldn't be able to survive teleporting mobs. It's kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't issue. I could have made a video of me soloing Iron Maw, but the fact I wait for Manyshot before aggroing portals would probably just be pointed out as an example of further failure.

In the end, I made the video to show Arcane Archers what to expect at level 20 from their damage, what circle strafing (which is not walking backwards with auto attack on, by the by) looks like, and to say that Arcane Archers are solo viable. They are solo viable because they can deal damage without taking as much damage as melee characters do. This does not mean that they have great DPS. Nowhere did I say "Look how uber I am." I was simply making the point that I can kill things while taking little damage ONLY while solo. If someone wants to see higher level content, I'll do that. If someone wants to see a closeup of my Shroud DPS, I'll do that too. My purpose here was to inform, not take sides in a debate that started all the way back in the beginning of DDO when ranged combat was scaled down.

I would like to point out that people seem to beat a dead horse when it comes to the ranged thing. I don't see multiple threads complaining about how melee rangers don't switch to a bow and use Manyshot when there's a cloud of targets to maximize their dps and why they should be booted from groups if they don't. People just assume that ranged is never viable and suggest the Manyshot tactic in scattered threads.

It is true, though, that if there's a group of 4-5 targets and you have Manyshot up you can double or even triple your dps for 20 seconds by hitting them with Improved Precise Shot. Do we threaten to kick melee rangers if they don't? Do we start long posting arguments and forum rants about how they're nerfing themselves by not doing so?

The point is I think the attitude that people enter Archer threads with needs to change. Some of the posts have been constructive but I've seen tons of threads that are just plain trollbait. I expect some of that coming to a forum but there seems to be a disproportionate amount directed at the ranged community.

I think more constructive criticism and thought and a little less of the whining, inflexible viewpoints, and anger might be a little more productive. Is Ranged balanced as of right now? Probably not (seeing the numbers would help). If that's really the issue then let's put our heads together like a community (perish the thought) and figure out what we need to make it viable.

During this process I've realized a few important things. One, I've learned that my damage is underwhelming (I didn't know, this is my first 20). Two, I've learned how to mix tactics to make that underwhelming damage a little more fun and viable to solo (i.e. I can finish quests with a hireling and not die). Three, I've learned that there's an enormous amount of prejudice to ranged characters based on issues that occurred a long while back and that there are many groups in game that would rather boot you than give you a chance to contribute, just because you don't contribute the way they want you to or your DPS is 20, 30, 50, or even 80% behind those of others.

That's just the state of the game and the state of the DDO community as of right now, in my opinion. Some things may change. Deepwood Sniper may give much more DPS contribution and be seen as less useless. Arcane Archers might be given a buff. I think it would be hard to argue, however, that attitudes will change as quickly. Even if my damage doubled or even tripled next patch there would be naysayers and people who would want to boot me from a group. I've accepted that, which I think is sad.

[Silvershaper]

As the title says, I can only give you my own experience, which is not that huge, since I started playing after f2p. After goofing around a bit and learning the game, I rolled an AA not knowing about the general community's position on this type of character. I have never experienced anyone in a group tell me to put down my bow, and I've never been booted from a group. I almost always use ranged, especially after getting slayer arrows, though I of course sometimes switch to my dual rapiers. Usually, when I play in 5-6 man groups, I'm either top of kill count (sometimes even with a factor 2 or 3 to the next player) or in the mid, a factor 2 or 3 from the top player. This is highly dependent on both the quest and area layout and the other players. However, when I'm in the bottom of the kill count, I'm still not just standing around being worthless, I'm usually keeping the mobs paralysed until the FoD or banish lands, making sure the other squishies take minimum dmg, or doing stat dmg, making the mob's saves fail earlier. Hearing about other ranged rangers' experience with being booted and discriminated has surprised me a lot. I can only guess to the reasons why I've never (knock on wood) haven this experience, and disregarding the fact that I'm just that more awesome than every other archer out there (even if that was true, I doubt that would've saved me), my guess will be that I play on Orien, the new server. There isn't yet established a big player base of lvl 20's, and I guess a lot of the players I've met so far are fairly new to DDO.

[Creeper]

+1 This was a well thought and well written post.

Something about this though… Perhaps seeing your interpretation through my crazy eyes would help.

I chose the demon area of the vale because of the Barbazu, honestly. If I had chosen Reavers instead and perched/kited giants I'm sure I would have gotten feedback saying that my tactics were lame, telling me my dps is still low, and that I wouldn't be able to survive teleporting mobs.

If you really did want to face teleporting mobs you would have gotten less flak if you’d done this in Shavarath.

It's kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't issue. I could have made a video of me soloing Iron Maw, but the fact I wait for Manyshot before aggroing portals would probably just be pointed out as an example of further failure.

That would have been a lot more telling video. The fact that you wait for many shot to activate to agro a portal is smart, but it is lame. That is not to say that you are lame, quite the opposite, just the idea of having to wait to do significant dps is lame. That is why everyone would have pointed it out as a failure. Not your failure but a failure of design.