Melee Cleric LR, advice?

[acidtiger]

So with three clerics leveled to 20 now, it's safe for me to say that Valiance's build is superior - for my play style and the groups I'm often in. My reg. old healbot makes me cry every time she gets tripped/cometfalled etc and my 'battle' cleric is a pothead with only ~1500sp. Having had good luck on the egg hunt (or rather my bf did) I find myself in possession of 2 +3 hearts and wanting to fix my 18cleric/2fighter battle cleric.

Please keep in mind that the build listed below attempts to accomplish the following:

1) Heal epic raids when my other clerics are on timer.
2) Heal/off heal+dps in shroud and reg. dungeons/raids.
2) Solo farm runs on reg. content.

What she won't be doing:

1) Soloing via blade barrier or doing any real offensive casting.

My goal was to keep her healing ability high, without completely trashing her dps gear and having a 2nd vanilla healbot. Luckily her 2 GS scims are only t2, so I'll keep them around for SS clickies, but other than that, she'll be a thf build.

Edit: Before anyone is tempted to suggest monk lvls instead, she is CG (sigh) and I do not want to TR her to fix that.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Elf Female
(1 Fighter \ 19 Cleric) 
Hit Points: 294
Spell Points: 1677 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 6
Will: 20

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             14                 16                   16
Dexterity            10                 11                   11
Constitution         14                 16                   16
Intelligence          8                  8                    8
Wisdom               18                 25                   28
Charisma              8                  8                   10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 20
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20


Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Cleric)


Level 3 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 4 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS


Level 5 (Cleric)


Level 6 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 7 (Cleric)


Level 8 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS


Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness


Level 10 (Cleric)


Level 11 (Cleric)


Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness


Level 13 (Cleric)


Level 14 (Cleric)


Level 15 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS


Level 17 (Cleric)


Level 18 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 19 (Cleric)


Level 20 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing II
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Jump I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration II
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot IV
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma I
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma II
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality II
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery II
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery III

[Polarkin]

I confess I am a little perplexed...

As I understand your build goal, you want to be a THF melee capable cleric with the healing ability to perform well in raids and will not be doing any (or a very limited) offensive casting.

What perplexes me is that in your build:

1) You are investing no stat points in Strength which is critical to your THF to-hit and damage.

2) You have selected the Power Attack feat but your maximum *normal* strength is 22 and even with Divine Power you'll likely be missing on a roll of 10 (approx) on content that is Vale level and higher.

3) You won't be doing any real offensive spell casting but you've taken two spell penetration enhancements

4) You haven't taken any THF feats to enhance your damage

I am concerned, as the build sits currently, that you will be very underwhelmed with the melee performance. I played an 18clr/2fighter THF build with mediocre standing strength (24) and no THF feats. With divine favor, divine power, and power attack I was whiffing about 40% of the time and doing such poor melee damage that I had trouble out-dpsing a trog shamans healing capability in the vale without dropping a cometfall on them.

My advice (which you may not like because it will impact your overall SP pool):

Starting Stats (accounting for tome use you outlined):

Str: 17 (+5 level ups, +2 tome, +6 item, +2 rage pot = 32 which is +11 to-hit/damage)
Dex: 9 (+1 tome, +6 item)
Con: 14 (+2 tome, +6item)
Int: 8
Wis: 16 (+2 tome, +6 item, +3 enhancement = 27 so you'll need to get some exceptional wis or a +3 tome)
Cha: 8

Leveling (since you are LR'ing I'd take the fighter level later to make use of one of the BAB based feats): 1-11 cleric, 12 fighter, 13-20 cleric

Feats:
1: Extend
3: Empower Healing
6: Quicken
9: IC Slashing
12: Toughness
12(fighter bonus): THF
15: ITHF
18: GTHF

Recommend Falchions for the improved crit range (15-20), preferably with a good damage prefix and suffix (you know, just in case you had a +5 holy burst silver falchion of maiming laying around to stick an icy burst upgrade on)

[Visty]

2) You have selected the Power Attack feat but your maximum *normal* strength is 22 and even with Divine Power you'll likely be missing on a roll of 10 (approx) on content that is Vale level and higher.

this isnt true, he will even hit horoth on norm without problems

with the rest i agree though

[acidtiger]

this isnt true, he will even hit horoth on norm without problems

with the rest i agree though

She. But honest mistake

[sirgog]

this isnt true, he will even hit horoth on norm without problems

with the rest i agree though

Anyone can hit Horoth on normal on a 2, at least on their third to fifth attacks in their chain.

The test of melee To-Hit is - can you hit Epic Raiyum frequently after he's been Improved Destructed? Can you hit the Djinni in Epic VON6?


If you don't see yourself as an offensive caster (and really, except for situational Bladebarriers, divine offensive casting is basically worthless in Epics unless you like seeing 'immune' on your screen) then there's no reason to invest build/level up points in Wisdom beyond Disjunction-proof 9th level spells (14 base +2 tome +3 enhancements; if you loot a +3-4 tome then you can save some AP). It's only 29 SP per two points of Wisdom - you can just invest in the enhancements for SP instead.

[acidtiger]

Anyone can hit Horoth on normal on a 2, at least on their third to fifth attacks in their chain.

The test of melee To-Hit is - can you hit Epic Raiyum frequently after he's been Improved Destructed? Can you hit the Djinni in Epic VON6?


If you don't see yourself as an offensive caster (and really, except for situational Bladebarriers, divine offensive casting is basically worthless in Epics unless you like seeing 'immune' on your screen) then there's no reason to invest build/level up points in Wisdom beyond Disjunction-proof 9th level spells (14 base +2 tome +3 enhancements; if you loot a +3-4 tome then you can save some AP). It's only 29 SP per two points of Wisdom - you can just invest in the enhancements for SP instead.

I can't see this toon, or any of mine, ever doing melee in an epic raid/dungeon. There seems to be plenty of properly geared/spec'd toons for that, but never enough healers. Being able to hit stuff in shroud/vod/hound was about where my expectation for melee ended. I see what you're saying though about the high wisdom cost for low sp return, hadn't even thought to do the math there. Oh well, more sp is never a bad thing...

[sirgog]

I can't see this toon, or any of mine, ever doing melee in an epic raid/dungeon. There seems to be plenty of properly geared/spec'd toons for that, but never enough healers. Being able to hit stuff in shroud/vod/hound was about where my expectation for melee ended. I see what you're saying though about the high wisdom cost for low sp return, hadn't even thought to do the math there. Oh well, more sp is never a bad thing...

When I'm playing a healing role in epics (including the harder ones in the Desert), I'm meleeing for probably 50% of the duration of most fights, even the healing intensive ones (like the trash fights in epic OOB).

Few fights have foes that deal so much damage that a quickened, empowered Mass Heal every cooldown can't keep the group alive, assuming you are grouped with solid melees (500+ HP, 20% or more healing amp) and have some form of CC (Weighted weapons being my favorite, Warchanters dualwielding Tenderizer FTW, but Irresistable Dance is a solid alternative). Casting the aforementioned Mass Heal takes 5/13's of your time (2.5 seconds every 6.5) - the remainder of the time can be spent softening up high AC targets with Rahl's Might, whacking things with Weighted weapons, or DPSing foes, particularly those that have been hit by Weighted Stun.

[acidtiger]

I confess I am a little perplexed...

As I understand your build goal, you want to be a THF melee capable cleric with the healing ability to perform well in raids and will not be doing any (or a very limited) offensive casting.

What perplexes me is that in your build:

1) You are investing no stat points in Strength which is critical to your THF to-hit and damage.

Her str is low, yes, but I didn't want to invest level ups in it. I'm hoping for the warpriest ring eventually and I'll craft more str into that as well. Her dmg has gone down, but it wasn't that good before anyways. I'm still testing out various weapons, and stuff. I'm seeing crits that are big, but the non crits are really low, yes.

2) You have selected the Power Attack feat but your maximum *normal* strength is 22 and even with Divine Power you'll likely be missing on a roll of 10 (approx) on content that is Vale level and higher.

I went out to Amrath after the LR and while buffed wasn't missing much at all.

3) You won't be doing any real offensive spell casting but you've taken two spell penetration enhancements

By real offensive casting I meant spamming harm, cometfall etc... But I'd still like to have destruction and implosion land on occasion. I probably should have phrased this better.

4) You haven't taken any THF feats to enhance your damage

No, and that was something I mulled over while redoing the build. A sacrifice made for more sp.

I am concerned, as the build sits currently, that you will be very underwhelmed with the melee performance. I played an 18clr/2fighter THF build with mediocre standing strength (24) and no THF feats. With divine favor, divine power, and power attack I was whiffing about 40% of the time and doing such poor melee damage that I had trouble out-dpsing a trog shamans healing capability in the vale without dropping a cometfall on them.

The build was fairly underwhelming previously, to the point she has sat idle for 2 months. An inferior melee, with inferior hp and an inferior healer with inferior sp. Now she's still an inferior melee, with more hp as a side effect, and capable healer.

My advice (which you may not like because it will impact your overall SP pool):

Starting Stats (accounting for tome use you outlined):

Str: 17 (+5 level ups, +2 tome, +6 item, +2 rage pot = 32 which is +11 to-hit/damage)
Dex: 9 (+1 tome, +6 item)
Con: 14 (+2 tome, +6item)
Int: 8
Wis: 16 (+2 tome, +6 item, +3 enhancement = 27 so you'll need to get some exceptional wis or a +3 tome)
Cha: 8

Leveling (since you are LR'ing I'd take the fighter level later to make use of one of the BAB based feats): 1-11 cleric, 12 fighter, 13-20 cleric

Feats:
1: Extend
3: Empower Healing
6: Quicken
9: IC Slashing
12: Toughness
12(fighter bonus): THF
15: ITHF
18: GTHF

Recommend Falchions for the improved crit range (15-20), preferably with a good damage prefix and suffix (you know, just in case you had a +5 holy burst silver falchion of maiming laying around to stick an icy burst upgrade on)

Ill look into the falchions, I was told they were inferior, been playing around mostly with greataxes and greatswords so far.

Responses in red.

If this was a solo build, I'd have gone a different route to be sure, but I'm always with at least one, if not two other friends while questing so uber dps is not required.