Is there a good Fire Monk Build?

[Xeraphim]

Even with henshin necklace, I don't believe a monk can afford the ki spamming when you dps bosses at full round.

I can attest to otherwise... even TRYING to burn all my Ki in Wind 4 with the henshin necklace, it outpaces me and the bar fills up.

I don't prefer fire stance for another reason: I use Unbalancing Strike a LOT, and that +1 DC ends up mattering quite a bit. Another reason is moving while attacking - In Wind, you get that first hit from settling in a bit faster than with fire or ocean. Using twitch, you get nearly the same mobile attack rate as stationary.

[sinedist]

Man, stuff in this forum got right interesting. Cedwin, _Solar: great contributions. Much needed contributions.

I think how people need to read the numbers you're putting out there are as simple as the numbers themselves: Wind is superior as many of us know, but Fire is not as far behind as many of us would think.

If monks weren't trapped in TWF with unarmed, then the two stances would be more equal since you could allocate more stat points into STR rather than DEX, allowing fire to either equal wind entirely or surpass it. Since you need a 17 DEX for the TWF line and an 18 DEX for Wind IV, you wouldn't save enough stat points to pull ahead in regard to Fire stance.

On top of this there is the ever-insistent seduction of the big 500. Touch of Death isn't this huge game changer for monks, as some would have others believe. Even in fire stance with unlimited ki, if you are able to keep it in constant cool down (meaning you are using it exactly when it once more becomes available), you are still only doing 33.3 DPS more than not having it at all. 33.3 MAXIMUM additional DPS is hardly something to build around, or to build for... as several forumites I will not name have suggested multiple times; with DPS numbers ranging from 300 - 600+, 33.3 DPS is merely a tidy little boost.

Touch of Death is not a game changer in the way that 33.3 additional damage per second is not substantial enough to alter a build. It is nice, it is a boost, and it is a valid choice. If there were to be a monk strike of 2000 Damage with a one minute cool down, it would be just as good as a 500 damage hit with a 15 second cool down, which would be just as good as a 100 damage hit with a 3 second cool-down... there are minor benefits to a larger number being thrown in less frequently than a series of smaller numbers being thrown in more frequently, but those benefits are quite minimal and, again, not worth building around...

Which brings us back to the OP, who opened up this great discussion.

If you are going STR-based and wish to play within Fire stance, it would be preferable (for a power-gamey purpose) and more optimal to build for the Light path. You will lack the WIS required to make use of all of the other Dark path benefits in order to gain a mere 33.3 more DPS, since you still need a solid amount of stat points allocated to DEX and CON. The Henshin Mystic PrE will likely be based on such a build balance, thus blending STR-based with the Light path. Caelana is an excellent candidate build for this type (one might drop the INT and add those points to STR, if you wish).

If you are going WIS-based and wish to play within Wind stance, it would be preferable (for a power-gamey purpose) and more optimal to build for the Dark path. You will have the WIS required to make use of all of the other Dark path benefits and will gain a 33.3 DPS increase to compensate for the loss in STR, since you will need to allocate a solid amount of stat points to DEX and CON. The Ninja Spy PrE will likely be based on such a build balance, thus blending WIS-based with the Dark path. Rockan Robin is a well known favorite for this type.

If you want a pretty DPS-y build that is STR based and dabbles heavily with the 12/8 split you would absolutely not be wrong to look into Rockan the Boat or The Beotch Slapper. All the best, OP.

Thanks to all the contributors thus far.

[Cedwin]

the OP wanted a str build in sun stance
so why are you ...



because it is

If you would have read my previous post, I said I was debunking a previous post that claimed Sun Stance is better than Wind Stance on a Strength Monk. I don't know how to make that any clearer to you.

PS. Because the OP wants a str monk, doesn't make this a finesse vs str thread, there are also wisdom monks who rely on high wisdom, he could just as easily have been playing one of those, with a moderate strength and no finesse.

[Creeper]

I can attest to otherwise... even TRYING to burn all my Ki in Wind 4 with the henshin necklace, it outpaces me and the bar fills up.

Sorry to be rude, but that is absolute bullcrap. Anyone with a monk can go to Ataraxia's Haven and attack a Scrag Troll. Spam all your Ki attacks (except the fire one) and see if your bar fills up...

Now, even on my second (soon to be third) incarnation monk build in FIRE Stance with the necklace I run out of Ki just using earth, wind, dominion, ocean, and stunning fist.
I could use Touch of Death, Quivering Palm, and whatever finisher but I don’t have enough Ki…

It’s OK to say that you never run out of Ki. I can believe that one. But to say that:

even TRYING to burn all my Ki in Wind 4 with the henshin necklace, it outpaces me and the bar fills up.

Is an extreme exaggeration

[Quijonsith]

I will agree that if I were 'try to burn all my ki' even on a light monk that I would not keep up with Ki generation in windstance with oremi's necklace. If I'm just spamming strikes and hitting consistently I have no problem. If i miss here and there too much i notice it in my ki bar and might turn off power attack. If I were to actually try to burn through my Ki by throwing out QP (and SF if I had it) I would surely eat through all my Ki. As a light side monk I don't use nearly as much Ki as a dark monk would.

Another point I'd like to bring up is this: there shouldn't be any such thing as a 'wind monk' or 'fire monk' etc. There are dex monks, str monks, etc, but if you're relegating yourself to one and only one stance you're not using your full versatility and potential. If you want the attack speed, go into wind. If you need Ki, go into fire. If you saves need, go into water. If you need HP, go into earth (arguably the least useful stance since it actually lowers my AC now and i never used it anyway). I regularly change between wind, fire, and water as needed, but mostly i'm in wind.

[Cedwin]

I just confirmed that the attack speed enhancements are in fact multiplicative, which means it is an extra +10% on top of hasted speed.

Increase to Attack Speed = Base Attack Speed per minute / ((1 - Attack Speed Modifier Percentage) * (1 - Next Attack Speed Modifier Percentage) * (1 - Next Attack Speed Modifier Percentage) ... until all percentages are accounted for)

What this means is that you cannot use a flat 25% increase for wind stance when making your calculations. It ends up being a 30.7% increase, while haste is a 17.6% increase.

So if we go by 100 attacks in a set amount of time, here are the correct numbers.

Ultimate Wind Stance
100 / ((1 - .15) * (1 - .10)) = 130.7
131 * (2d6 + 11) = 1703 to 3013


Ultimate Sun Stance w/ haste
100 / ((1 - .15)) = 117.6
118 * (2d6 + 13) = 1770 to 2950

This also means that UWS gives you 13% more attacks, meaning you'll have to add all of your additional damage together, and multiply it by 13. (Rings, Elemental Damage, Ki Strikes, etc)

[ericc88]

well if those numbers are true, then wind vs fire isnt a huge difference

but then u have to factor in elemental effects (not ki attacks, just weapon effects)

the goal of most end game monks is to have 2 ToD rings
holy burst 2d6-non crits
shock burst 1d6-non crits

windstance hits 131
firestance hits 118

(2d6 + 1d6 ) * 131 =393-2358
(2d6 + 1d6 ) * 118 =354-2124

+ ur orginal numbers before

Windstance 131 hits w/ only ToD rings
(1703 to 3013) + (393 to 2358) = 2096 to 5371
average of 3733.5


Firestance 118 hits w/ only ToD rings
(1770 to 2950) + (354 to 2124) = 2124 to 5074
average of 3599


this is considering if you only have burst rings as your weapon effects
the gap will only increase(wind higher than fire) should you have more effects

personally my monk has force burst + bleed + frost on my weapon for mobs i cant stun
(1d5/6??) + (1d8) + (1d6)
its assuming its 3d6(its not its really 1d5+1d6+1d8...so 2d6+1d7)
that increases the gap by an extra 39-234 dmg wind will do more than fire(subtractions from the 3d6 calculations earlier)

putting a total of max 531 gap wind has over fire, in a short amount of time

[Halock]

Anyone who says they cant empty their ki bar isnt trying hard enough, or plays with a large enough latency to prevent them from hitting a strike as often as they should be able to.

Even with oremi's in wind stance i can keep my bar almost empty cycling through my strikes, i could have done this before the increase in ki costs, now its alot easier and i find myself waiting a second or 2 to let it build up now and then ( light side monk ) if i'm able to go all out.

Thats only when i'm allowed to use all of my strikes though, most times you can only only strike with earth strikes, unbalancing and eagle claw ( those are arguably a waste too later on ) at end game, as the other 3 get negated ( electric not as much ) so all the ki in the world isnt doing me much good.

That right above i really why wind wins out in these debates, the extra ki you get from fire stance is largely wasted at end game, so it comes down to straight fist dps, and more fists tends to be more dps.

[Turgar]

I am definitely not a strong authority on the pros and cons of a strength based sun stance dark monk, so I won't even bother trying to go there.

I can however, talk about a dex based finnese wind stance dark monk. There are a few factors that haven't been considered or mentioned in this thread.

#1 Halfling guile as opposed to spending the APs to get every possible ki strike, I chose to go this route, and with my tharnes I am getting an extra 16 per swing, which even without the tharnes goggles, is equivalent to an additional 16 strength in sneak attack damage.

#2 Attack speed creating more opportunities for weighted 5% handwraps to work. Someone briefly mentioned this, but it hasn't really been something I've seen added to calculations. I assume that is because we are mostly thinking in terms of purple named raid bosses.

#3 Immunities most purple named raid bosses have immunities to several damage types, making ki strikes an option with a limited selection. I personally find myself spamming my electrical ki strikes, and touch of death when it comes off of cooldown, and I have sufficient ki to do so.

Show me some data to prove that you can beat the dps of halfling guile sneak attack damage + the electrical ki strikes + touch of death by spamming every other ki strike. or for that matter show me an ap plan that allows me to get touch of death, and all of my relevant ki strikes that isn't terrible.

If you can show me that, great, I always love to improve my monk.

[toughguyjoe]

I am definitely not a strong authority on the pros and cons of a strength based sun stance dark monk, so I won't even bother trying to go there.

I can however, talk about a dex based finnese wind stance dark monk. There are a few factors that haven't been considered or mentioned in this thread.

#1 Halfling guile as opposed to spending the APs to get every possible ki strike, I chose to go this route, and with my tharnes I am getting an extra 16 per swing, which even without the tharnes goggles, is equivalent to an additional 16 strength in sneak attack damage.

#2 Attack speed creating more opportunities for weighted 5% handwraps to work. Someone briefly mentioned this, but it hasn't really been something I've seen added to calculations. I assume that is because we are mostly thinking in terms of purple named raid bosses.

#3 Immunities most purple named raid bosses have immunities to several damage types, making ki strikes an option with a limited selection. I personally find myself spamming my electrical ki strikes, and touch of death when it comes off of cooldown, and I have sufficient ki to do so.

Show me some data to prove that you can beat the dps of halfling guile sneak attack damage + the electrical ki strikes + touch of death by spamming every other ki strike. or for that matter show me an ap plan that allows me to get touch of death, and all of my relevant ki strikes that isn't terrible.

If you can show me that, great, I always love to improve my monk.

I prefer my WarForged Str based Ultimate Windstance Monk. 30 Strength, all WF immunities, great healing thanks to enhancement stacking, Lots of damage per swing which do not require loss of agro or loss of damage against targets with Fortification(plus the fact that I will probably wear Tharnes goggles, since they are pretty awesome).

However, one thing you mentioned in your post was spamming strikes. You really should grab Mountain Stance, if your Con isn't too bunked out. Its unnamed damage

[Turgar]

when I get home I will check out my aps and see if I can get room for earth stance upgraded. I think I can lose a rank of halfling dexterity for the time being, since I have an exceptional bonus from my freshly acquired TOD ring.

I will however say that sneak attack damage is something I almost always get when attacking with my monk. I don't typically play solo with him, and I don't usually play as a tank when in a party. with the 20% bonus to reducing threat generation from tharnes it makes that easier.

I have guildies who like to say that their warforged monks are better, but I am sticking with my halfling, and loving it! Wf power attack rocks for sure, but I turn power attack off when doing epic runs most of the time, so my sneak attack damage > warforged power attack imo

[Creeper]

I prefer my WarForged Str based Ultimate Windstance Monk.

I agree. I have about the same setup and have played both human and halfling to cap.
Wf make great dark monks, especially for soloing.
My second choice is human light path which was my first incarnation.

[Quijonsith]

I myself play a halfling with the guile enhancements. The way I split my AP is to get ultimate wind/earth for stance/strikes, went up to halfing guile 3, the rest of my AP split I won't get into as it's not relavent to DPS.

To get around the whole 'halflings must lose aggro to do more damage' issue my primary wraps right now are +5 Holy Burst Icy Burst of deception. The deception goes off ALOT with my attack speed, granting me sneak attack damage almost constantly (believe it or not I have sneak attack damage more often than not even solo) against creatures that can be sneak attacked while also blinding the enemy briefly if their not immune. This, along with my Ki strike spamming, has allowed me to hold single target aggro against the entire group including the wizard's fire walls. This is not in raids though, I have not tried tanking any raids. The WF kensai/monk I'm building will be for that.

Mind you I'm a finesse monk.

[CSFurious]

who was in your group? i know it did not include any wf thf frenzied berzerkers or dps builds using a khopesh or a halfling rogue dual-wielding radicance rapiers if you were maintaining aggro

please your monk might hold its own with some reasonable dps compared to other monks but it is never going to keep up with real dps

I myself play a halfling with the guile enhancements. The way I split my AP is to get ultimate wind/earth for stance/strikes, went up to halfing guile 3, the rest of my AP split I won't get into as it's not relavent to DPS.

To get around the whole 'halflings must lose aggro to do more damage' issue my primary wraps right now are +5 Holy Burst Icy Burst of deception. The deception goes off ALOT with my attack speed, granting me sneak attack damage almost constantly (believe it or not I have sneak attack damage more often than not even solo) against creatures that can be sneak attacked while also blinding the enemy briefly if their not immune. This, along with my Ki strike spamming, has allowed me to hold single target aggro against the entire group including the wizard's fire walls. This is not in raids though, I have not tried tanking any raids. The WF kensai/monk I'm building will be for that.

Mind you I'm a finesse monk.

[Quijonsith]

I suppose I should have included the average group make up I wind up in. If there is a barbarian or a dps kopesher then by all means I don't stand a chance. But it would seem that such builds are not so common as to be in even 25% of the groups i'm in. I wasn't trying to claim crazy uber dps or anything and point probably would have been better made without the aggro holding aspect. The point was that everyone thinks halflings need to not have aggro to get their best dps with guile, to which I brought up my experience with deception wraps.

[sinedist]

For high Wisdom builds there is also Unbalancing Strike, which not only opens the enemy up to sneak attacks like deception does but it turns them around and around and around.

I'm not even going to touch Furious' comments.

[KKDragonLord]

I just confirmed that the attack speed enhancements are in fact multiplicative, which means it is an extra +10% on top of hasted speed.

This also means that UWS gives you 13% more attacks, meaning you'll have to add all of your additional damage together, and multiply it by 13. (Rings, Elemental Damage, Ki Strikes, etc)

Hey Cedwin, your numbers are excellent, i was wondering if you could make a run down of how a Halfling DPS TWF Dark Path build would compare in Wind Stance or Fire Stance, im wondering if the 500dmg finisher would require the latter to keep it up, and if what would be better in the end.

Isn't it possible to calculate Ki generation? I feel like a lot of misconceptions would be lifted that way...

currently my monk is a Light Path at level 13, and i can't really keep up with doing strikes all the time, i wonder if i thats normal or i screwed up my build somehow, but i plan on going Dark later on, and i wont have all the fire stances so i am wondering if i gimped myself too much...

PS: i do use halfling guile and unbalancing a lot (it also lowers enemies ac and it hits quite well even on purples)

[Quijonsith]

Something else to bear in mind when it comes to Ki generation is that you only get Ki on a hit that does damage. If you hit and do no base damage (even if the extra weapon procs go off) you get no Ki, and if you miss you get no Ki. Paying attention to which of these is happening if at all helps me alot with my Ki generation.

If I'm fighting something with high enough AC to make me miss more than I like and I need more Ki I turn off power attack, netting me more Ki gain at the cost of 5 damage per hit with no cost to speed. If I'm fighting something with high enough DR that I sometimes do 0 base damage (very rare these days but is used to happen) I'd make sure power attack was on and turn on fire stance.

[Cedwin]

Isn't it possible to calculate Ki generation? I feel like a lot of misconceptions would be lifted that way...

There are so many variables that would need to be accounted for to calculate it correctly.

One of the main factors being, how often do you stun mobs?

All centered monks get +1 Ki per successful attack, and +3 Ki (+1 base + 2 crit) on successful critical attacks. Sun stance gives you an extra +1 Ki per hit, and Earth stance gives you an extra +1 Ki when injured. Those two stances increase according to which tier you are in.

When a mob is stunned, every attack is a critical, so you gain an extra +2 Ki per attack regardless of which stance you are in. If you have the crane IV enhancement, it adds an extra +4 Ki on top of that to every critical hit.

With 5% weighted handwraps and UWS, I tend to stun just about everything within a few hits. I also use stunning blow quite frequently, since my current TR monk is a Str based monk. My previous build was a Wis based monk, Stunning Fist is the way to go if you have a decent wisdom.


Here are some rough numbers with GTWF and Crane IV, in UWS, on a stunned mob:

1st hit:	1+2+4  
		1+2+4 <- GTWF
2nd hit:	1+2+4
		1+2+4 <- TWF
3rd hit:	1+2+4
		1+2+4 <- ITWF
4th hit:	1+2+4
		1+2+4 <- TWF

Total:	14 Ki per attack, 56 Ki in one attack cycle

Sun Stance IV with Crane IV and GTWF, on a stunned mob

1st hit:	1+2+4+4  
		1+2+4+4 <- GTWF
2nd hit:	1+2+4+4
		1+2+4+4 <- TWF
3rd hit:	1+2+4+4
		1+2+4+4 <- ITWF
4th hit:	1+2+4+4
		1+2+4+4 <- TWF

Total:	22 Ki per attack, 88 Ki in one attack cycle

Using our previous numbers, on a stunned mob

Sun Stance = 118 attacks * 22 Ki = 2596 Ki generated
Wind Stance = 131 attacks * 14 Ki = 1834 Ki generated

The HUGE difference is when you are up against a non-stunnable mob.

Sun Stance = 118 attacks * 10 Ki = 1180 Ki generated
Wind Stance = 131 attacks * 2 Ki = 262 Ki generated

My final word on this is, know what you are up against. If you can't stun something, switch to Sun Stance if you need Ki.

[rimble]

Something else to bear in mind when it comes to Ki generation is that you only get Ki on a hit that does damage. If you hit and do no base damage (even if the extra weapon procs go off) you get no Ki, and if you miss you get no Ki. Paying attention to which of these is happening if at all helps me alot with my Ki generation.

Some of the 'no way you have enough Ki' arguers are forgetting Elegant Crane too. Regular hit Ki generation, plus Monk capstone, plus Henshin necklace, plus Elegant Crane is a good amount of Ki. Put on some Weighted wraps to seal the deal and you end up with way more than you need.

EDIT: Ah, Cedwin edited in some good info...he's on it.