Blade Barrier?

[4elshaddai]

Blade Barrier is the best Cleric spell in the game (next to Cometfall)! Get yourself Maximize and Empower somewhere down the line and use those Blade Barriers wisely. Believe me, I have the Best Healing Dorf this side of Mithril Hall and noone gives a flying fish! How you claim to have Low dc's and no Wisdom is BEYOND me. If that's true, I strongly recommend that you reroll that gimp! ;P

[Kirlian]

Hello, i'm a pure healing lvl 12 favored soul, im wondering if its worth it to get blade barrier at lvl 13 even without maxmize/extend/empower, and i have very poor DCs since i have a low wisdom, my DC would be of 18

if you have low wis dont be bother with any of these, later in the game you will find mobs with evasion/ high reflex save. no point. unless you maxed your wisdom and take some empower and other feats as well.

[Mellkor]

Keep in mind folks, that the BB damage numbers quoted below are only on criticals. More typical numbers are 150-200 per tick. Still not bad, but does not really do much at end game. Again, BB is great to level up with, but do not expect it to work much in epic, end game quests, and raids. It is useful in only a handful of places at endgame, certainly not enough to build a toon for, IMO. Stick to a good solid melee WF lord of blades build. They do much better in end game and epic quests in my experience. My BB's from my wis-dump stat WF lord of blades is almost as good as my max wis evoker build cleric (given equal metamagics and items that boost it). Only difference is a marginal difference in mobs saving against it. It seems to me that if a mob is going to save vs your BB it will regardless of DC. So it really doesnt matter much who casts those BB's.

-JR

I built an offensive casting FvS and at lvl 20 with maximize and empower her BB's hit bt 350 to 500. Even for high lvl content she can beast them, tho with the massive mana pool at lvl 20 I have found that she has had no problems healing for just about any quest. I really don't know of one quest that she couldn't heal for.

At lvl 20 her Wis is 32 and Cha 30 tho due to this being a test build when the FvS came out I need to Fix a few little issues with her via LR or GR.

Now the only dislike that I have is that due to her being Drow(min max on wis and cha) she is feat starved, so she doesn't have empower healing, tho once she has the full Lorriks champion set I really don't see any character build out side of it being a freak of nature that can take one of her heals and not be at full health, aside the zero healers friend WF fail build.

Now with this build she works for healing or dmg on most quest and healing for all quest. Select quest shes limited to only healing tho in others their is no other class that can finish the quest as fast as she can.

If built right when it comes to stats, tomes and gear I don't really see the FvS being gimped at healing and offensive casting.

As for the standard group if you want magical dmg pick a sorc/wiz and a true healing FvS with pure cha would be an epic heal/buff bot.

[Fennario]

Only difference is a marginal difference in mobs saving against it. It seems to me that if a mob is going to save vs your BB it will regardless of DC. So it really doesnt matter much who casts those BB's.

-JR

I find this statement to be false. I have a max wisdom favored soul. A guildie of mine has a dump wisdom forged soul.

We run together a lot. There is way more than just a "marginal difference" between our blade barriers. He has even admitted that and won't cast them often when I am in group.

I'm not saying his build is bad, because it is not. He can tear stuff up in melee obscenely better than I can for instance.

But to say that a mob is going to save anyway regardless of dc is something I had to comment on after reading. That is simply not true. A 40 dc blade barrier is gonna be a good deal more reliable than a 35 dc. Just like a 40 dc wail of the banshee is gonna work better than a 35 dc on a sorcerer or wizard.

[Mellkor]

Was this in end game content and epics? I specifically was talking about end game.

In end game there is very little difference in BB performance between my 14 wis FvS and my 40 wis evoker focused cleric in terms of DPS.

[Matuse]

Hey, I saved a Hound raid that went south and had a complete party wipe by dropping a blade barrier right before I crumped, and Xy'zzy wandered through it a couple times and died from it.

Was pretty hilarious, actually. 12 corpses beat an elder demon! Thank goodness for the rez shrine that pops up after she dirtnaps.

[Impatiens]

Again, BB is great to level up with, but do not expect it to work much in epic, end game quests, and raids.

Blade Barrier is central in how my rogue/monk buddy and I duo a lot of epics. It works very well end game if you know how to use it. My FVS is also melee based, though with a decent (not maxed but decent) wisdom score. In epics things will generally make their save no matter what your wisdom score thus only taking half damage from the blades. It's still an amazing spell.

[Mellkor]

In my experience using BB in epics as the primary means of DPS only costs you a lot of pots. If you have an abundence of them go for it! I often do epics such as OOB and wiz king to completion with little to no resources used. There is no way you can claim to do those quests with just BB and your rogue friend. If so, I would love to see it.

Blade Barrier is central in how my rogue/monk buddy and I duo a lot of epics. It works very well end game if you know how to use it. My FVS is also melee based, though with a decent (not maxed but decent) wisdom score. In epics things will generally make their save no matter what your wisdom score thus only taking half damage from the blades. It's still an amazing spell.

[Gercho]

Blade Barrier is central in how my rogue/monk buddy and I duo a lot of epics. It works very well end game if you know how to use it. My FVS is also melee based, though with a decent (not maxed but decent) wisdom score. In epics things will generally make their save no matter what your wisdom score thus only taking half damage from the blades. It's still an amazing spell.

So, this seems to imply that if you are thinking about end game, wis should be a dump stat on a melee favored soul...

[Impatiens]

So, this seems to imply that if you are thinking about end game, wis should be a dump stat on a melee favored soul...

Perhaps! I do still sometimes use Destruction situationally, though obviously not in Epics, so having a decent Wis score is necessary for that. If you are only thinking about Epics though as far as end game content goes, then perhaps Wisdom is not so necessary. I do sometimes see Blade Barrier ticks that hit for the full amount. Whether this only when mobs roll 1s or not is hard to say. If it is not only on mobs rolling ones, then perhaps my Wis score is doing more for me than I think. I don't really want to LR and drop my Wis score in order to find out though

[Gercho]

Whats the wisdom score of your fvs? cause i call melee based to fvs that spend level up points in str, and caster based those that spend level up points in wis. What i think is that if you are str based, then starting with wis 6 or 12 (in case of a wfg, 8 or 14 other races) is about the same for end game content (not only epics). So i rather go 18 str 6 wis than 16 str 12 wis...

[Impatiens]

Whats the wisdom score of your fvs? cause i call melee based to fvs that spend level up points in str, and caster based those that spend level up points in wis. What i think is that if you are str based, then starting with wis 6 or 12 (in case of a wfg, 8 or 14 other races) is about the same for end game content (not only epics). So i rather go 18 str 6 wis than 16 str 12 wis...

You don't really need to put level ups in strength to be melee based. Those few points will only net you a little extra physcial damage and hit. My FVS has 32 Wisdom at the moment, will have 34 when I upgrade my GS. No, her strength is not as high as that. I'm not going to claim I have super high melee dps. It's decent melee dps, enough to make some contribution when I don't need to heal and very useful for helping me solo. I guess it boils down to how you define melee based.

*edit* I should point out that my FVS is a scimitar using 18/2 elf rather than a WF, though I'm not sure if that makes a difference

[sirgog]

Keep in mind, however, that BB is a great spell while leveling up, it is virtually worthless at endgame in raids and epic quests where you are more focused on healing the group and it really does so little damage to epic mobs that you have to cast half a mana bar of BB's to kill one small group of mobs.

It is OK if you plan on soloing non epics and don't plan on raiding much.

-JR

It's a situationally useful spell at endgame that's worth spending a spell slot on regardless of your feats.

My main is a melee-specced Clr18/Ftr2 with a 26 wisdom, Maximize Spell. They don't have Empower Spell or any way to make BB crit.

I use BB (which ticks for ~235 damage on a failed save, ~117 on a successful one) in the following endgame or near-endgame situations:


1) Solo-farming Epic OOB entry hall, Epic VON1 entry hall and Epic Wiz-King entry hall (farming Epic Scrolls)
2) For getting the aggro of non-evasive foes, especially when I can predict exactly when and where they'll be encountered (just did this tonight to off-tank the second wave of Orthons in Elite Vision of Destruction, it's particularly useful in saving a Hound run that's going downhill). This can be used quite effectively against certain raid bosses too - I've done it to elite Suulomades and normal Horoth (do not do it to the latter unless you can survive taking 550 damage in one second, but it can help prevent the group wiping if the tank dies)
3) To mangle large clusters of foes, preferably ones that cannot trip me (Shroud part 2 trash clearing, Sins of Attrition, trash in the Subterrane devil area
4) To safely pound on foes with dangerous retributive damage guards (several foes in Inspired Quarter/Dreaming Dark elite)


So it has its uses at level 20 even on a character with a pretty mediocre save DC. It has a permanent spot on my primary hotbar.

[sirgog]

You don't really need to put level ups in strength to be melee based. Those few points will only net you a little extra physcial damage and hit. My FVS has 32 Wisdom at the moment, will have 34 when I upgrade my GS. No, her strength is not as high as that. I'm not going to claim I have super high melee dps. It's decent melee dps, enough to make some contribution when I don't need to heal and very useful for helping me solo. I guess it boils down to how you define melee based.

That's fine for non-epic content - in epics, you need to be max Str or very close, or else you'll miss too often to be effective.

Against a 39 AC foe like Arraetrikos (normal) there's a small difference indeed between 28 Str and 36 - just six damage per swing, about 8%. Even against a 51 AC foe (Arraetrikos elite) there's a small enough difference. It's against a 67 AC foe (Epic Angog the Champion, entry to VON1) or a ~73 AC foe (Epic Raiyum) that the 36 Str starts dealing 2-3 times the damage the 28 Str build does.

[Gercho]

You don't really need to put level ups in strength to be melee based. Those few points will only net you a little extra physcial damage and hit. My FVS has 32 Wisdom at the moment, will have 34 when I upgrade my GS. No, her strength is not as high as that. I'm not going to claim I have super high melee dps. It's decent melee dps, enough to make some contribution when I don't need to heal and very useful for helping me solo. I guess it boils down to how you define melee based.

Well, we agree that depends on how we define it, i would call your fvs a CC melee capable fvs, while a str based fvs i would call a melee fvs. In a melee fvs that you dont spend level up points in wis, i find that starting with 12 wis is the same than starting with 6, so i rather move those 6 points to get str 18, that is not that big gain, but is still better than getting 3 to dc to some spells that will be saved with 2+ anyway.

[Mellkor]

It's a situationally useful spell at endgame that's worth spending a spell slot on regardless of your feats.

My main is a melee-specced Clr18/Ftr2 with a 26 wisdom, Maximize Spell. They don't have Empower Spell or any way to make BB crit.

I use BB (which ticks for ~235 damage on a failed save, ~117 on a successful one) in the following endgame or near-endgame situations:


1) Solo-farming Epic OOB entry hall, Epic VON1 entry hall and Epic Wiz-King entry hall (farming Epic Scrolls)
2) For getting the aggro of non-evasive foes, especially when I can predict exactly when and where they'll be encountered (just did this tonight to off-tank the second wave of Orthons in Elite Vision of Destruction, it's particularly useful in saving a Hound run that's going downhill). This can be used quite effectively against certain raid bosses too - I've done it to elite Suulomades and normal Horoth (do not do it to the latter unless you can survive taking 550 damage in one second, but it can help prevent the group wiping if the tank dies)
3) To mangle large clusters of foes, preferably ones that cannot trip me (Shroud part 2 trash clearing, Sins of Attrition, trash in the Subterrane devil area
4) To safely pound on foes with dangerous retributive damage guards (several foes in Inspired Quarter/Dreaming Dark elite)


So it has its uses at level 20 even on a character with a pretty mediocre save DC. It has a permanent spot on my primary hotbar.

I agree with you, however I was directing my comments to those who seem to believe that BB is the end all spell in all situations. It is far from that.

You sum up I think all of the places I use BB every now and then at end game, but still max str melee WF FvS by far outperforms with melee than any BB caster in end game/epic content. I just dont want to see someone build a toon based on things said here thinking BB is the awnser to all problems.

-JR

[Impatiens]

That's fine for non-epic content - in epics, you need to be max Str or very close, or else you'll miss too often to be effective.

Against a 39 AC foe like Arraetrikos (normal) there's a small difference indeed between 28 Str and 36 - just six damage per swing, about 8%. Even against a 51 AC foe (Arraetrikos elite) there's a small enough difference. It's against a 67 AC foe (Epic Angog the Champion, entry to VON1) or a ~73 AC foe (Epic Raiyum) that the 36 Str starts dealing 2-3 times the damage the 28 Str build does.

In Epics I'm spamming my heals far too often to really worry about meleeing. But yes, if you are actually going to be meleeing rather than healing in Epics higher strength is more important.

[Mellkor]

In Epics I'm spamming my heals far too often to really worry about meleeing. But yes, if you are actually going to be meleeing rather than healing in Epics higher strength is more important.

With a little practice, and group cooperation, its very effective, mana efficient, and easy to do both with a melee FvS, even in epic content. I just get the group to stay within my "healing circle" and use quickened mass heal and supplement with mass cure only when needed. If everyone uses weighted 5% weapons (including yourself) and old school tactics such as block at door with an arcane caster behind you, you wont have to "spam heals" much at all in epic content.

-JR