Ranged Alacriy testing

[irmrbean]

The difference between having and not having the capstone while having all the +alacrity items is about 8 arrows/minute.
8 arrows of regular damage no crit/slay living/lightning strike using a lightning strike bow is about 8*(1d10 +20 +1d6 +1d6) or 8*{5.75+20+3.58+3.58} 263.28 extra damage from capstone. The numbers in the {} were gotten from rolling 100d6 in game and dividing by 100 to get an average number for the shock and goodburst damage.

So going pure ranger with the capstone adds 263 damage. This is assuming the mob has 100% fortification. The actual damage with crits/slay living and lightning strike would be much higher if only just one arrow was a crit.

The capstone + haste compared to capstone + haste + items(ToD deepwood sniper set) difference is only 2 arrows or 65 damage. So skipping items and just getting the capstone isn't that big a dps loss, though every bit helps with range damage being what it is.

For most end game raid content you will always have haste. If there is no caster they do make haste pots, but ud have to pause every 30 seconds to drink another.

I think that answers your questions

[Xyfiel]

Capstone speeds up more then just arrows, specifically the better dps weapon outside manyshot, the heavy repeater.

[Zombiekenny]

Copying this from where I posted it in a different thread:

I did some testing the other day, 100 arrows fired at a wall with haste, without haste, with capstone and without capstone
Going off of memory here:
1:47 - no haste - no capstone
1:35 - haste - no capstone
1:35 - no haste - capstone
1:31 - haste - capstone

conclusion: useless waste of two AP


Keep in mind I'm speaking primarily from the perspective of a TWF ranger, with a bow only used for stuff like DQ epic. If I was primarilly using a bow then the small improvement may be more worth it.

[zealous]

http://irmrbean.com/rangedas2.jpg

What you would expect is that ToD+Capstone wouldn't stack and that the quiver and haste wouldn't stack.
*equivalent hasted values with or without the quiver seems to be the same and support the expected.
*The tod set might stack with the capstone, with diminishing return due to stacking of multiple effects.
Pure speculation ofc =)

III. Speed boosts

Unfortunately, the effect of boosts is a fair amount more complicated than one would expect. The effects of boosts and stacking are best described by the formula:


Duration Modifier = Duration Modifier 1 * Duration Modifier 2 * .... * 0.95
Modified Attack Chain Duration = ((Original Attack Chain Duration - (Overhead * Attack Chain Length)) * Duration Modifier) + (Overhead * Attack Chain Length)

This is described in more detail in a post further down the thread, here.

Hypothetically, it could be so that a ranged attack consists of two separate animations; a attack animation and a reload animation. If the overhead (reload) takes a sufficiently large proportion of the total time, increases to the attack animation would not give as large effect as they state.

What you could do is to make multiple tests of what you do know to stack, i.e. unhasted/hasted in order to estimate the overhead. Could then test if and how different items, capstone and feats stack. Would probably need baseline from char without feats such as rapid shot.

Can't really do much with just the one sample.

[treas7]

-bump-

[Hailia]

Fantastic test. +1 to ya. I look forward to seeing the same tests with the AA ToD set. From reading previous threads and posts in the forums it is my understanding that the AA ToD set and the Ranger Capstone DO NOT stack. lol.

[InSoNiAc]

Well done for verifying this.

[Zero_Tolerance]

Just to confirm: Black Dragonscale is not mentioned because its bonus is the same as from the Quiver? [and so doesn't stack]

And then AA ToD set is 10% competence [should stack with everything, while Sniper is 5% don't know what type [enhancement=shouldn't stack with haste]?

[altrocks]

From what I've seen in this and other threads, along with almost 2 years of playing a pure 20 AA Ranger, I'm actually thinking there might be an absolute maximum speed for bow RoF that's based on the firing animation (similar to casting time/cooldowns for spells) and this is where the diminishing returns are really hitting everyone. The only thing that seems to overcome it is Manyshot, and that's only because it fires multiple arrows per animation. The haste-effects do boost the animation speed, but the basic bow-firing animation seems to take a long loooong time.

If it ever actually gets looked at, I'd suggest some of the following changes. First, make manyshot more useful than just something to splash for max dps builds and actually make it a reliable source of DPS. Make it more like Power attack with an enhancement line that allows you to get more arrows per bow-pull at a cost of attack bonus and make it a toggle instead of an activated ability (like haste/sprint/damage boosts, which have their own enhancements lines to augment them as well, but not for manyshot? Come on). This would give people a reason to make dex-based, pure rangers with capstone and not just pull out a pair of khopeshes for 100 seconds of every 2 minutes.

If that's too radical, then make Manyshot a toggle that imposes a static to-hit penalty while giving 1d3 extra arrows per shot, but uses up a full 4 arrows for each shot no matter what (a few get dropped when you're going all-out like that). Yes, it would be more expensive to buy arrows and you would have to carry huge stacks, but it would make the AA conjure ability actually mean something more than "free standard arrows when you log in".

As a side note... If you doubt the mostly useless nature of the AA conjure ability, look at prices for House D metal-type arrows that are actually useful like Silver and Cold Iron and compare that to the complete lack of DR breaking the conjured arrows give. It's a pittance to stock up on those and stick 1,000 in a quiver. Plus, if you're not using a +5 Greensteel bow (litII) at endgame and you're based in Ranged-combat, you're doing something wrong. The Conjure ability from +1 to +5 means nothing because of this, but costs 4 AP anyway if you want to get to slaying arrows. Give us a choice of what kind of arrows to conjure, or something. Like the summon abilities. Give us a list to choose from. I'm not expecting metalline arrows, but gives us an option. +X Enhancement or Silver or Cold Iron or Adamantine, etc. Make the metal-type arrows a few notches less than the enhancement of the same level to balance it out or something. Like +5 Conjure ability would give normal +5's as current, but +4 Adamantine, +3 Cold Irons or +2 Silvers, maybe even +1 Metallines or something.

Honestly, any movement on improving the ranged combat options from "Burst Manyshot DPS + Melee" or "Caster" would be immensely appreciated. I know people get confused by Rangers between D&D and LotRO, but they are, in fact, DIFFERENT THINGS and have been for many, many decades.

sorry for the off-topic, but I love playing my AA and really don't want to TR it into a Helves Angel type build just so I don't feel completely gimped from Shroud upwards.

[Fetchi]

+1 For testing this again. It has been tested before and the same results have been seen. The problem is the items/enhancments that do stack are so minute that they don't justify the cost.

Abbot Quiver = hard to acquire raid item worth a haste pot
Black Dragon Scale Armor = hell of a lot of grinding worth a haste pot
TOD set - An even more hellacious grind for the cost of about a haste pot
Capstone - No real reason to stay pure as multiclassing with just about anything is better than the benefits of these APs

We can stack STR mods till we get over 100 but we don't want to stack ranged combat mods?

Makes no sense.

[wax_on_wax_off]

So, 85.87 seconds to shoot 100 arrows as a best case scenario. Presumably the first 20 seconds is with manyshot so in fact accounts for 80 seconds of regular shooting (with 4 arrows/shot). So it would be 165.87 seconds to shoot 100 arrows without manyshot? 1 arrow every 1.6587 seconds?

Wait, how does reload time factor in to that?

1/1.6587=0.6029 arrows/second. Compare that with a barbarians attack speed with a greatsword: 1.6 attacks/second (worst case scenario). Compare it with a tempest ranger: 3.5 attacks/second (close to best case scenario).

Factor in the manyshot and it's a little more forgiving. 1/85.87=1.16 arrows/second. Still significantly behind the barbarian.

Does a single arcane archer arrow do more damage than a swing for a barbarian when counting glancing blows and all the other affects? (I guess no).

Is it correct to say that about half of the damage of an arcane archer is in that 20 seconds of manyshot over an 80 second period?

I love arcane archers, I have a ranger who uses a bow regularly, I've had a cleric arcane archer, I've submitted numerous builds to the forums incorporating the AA PrE. However, if the damage is really this low, can we really justify using a bow 24/7 in end game content? Shouldn't every AA only use a bow situationally?

Example:
An Arcane Archer should only use a bow if attempting to maximise their contribution to the party if:
1. Manyshot is off timer
2. 3 or more enemies are lined up for IPS (maybe 2 is ok, maybe it isn't)
3. Enemy is out of reach
4. It's too dangerous to be close to the enemy

That's it?

[altrocks]

So, 85.87 seconds to shoot 100 arrows as a best case scenario. Presumably the first 20 seconds is with manyshot so in fact accounts for 80 seconds of regular shooting (with 4 arrows/shot). So it would be 165.87 seconds to shoot 100 arrows without manyshot? 1 arrow every 1.6587 seconds?

Wait, how does reload time factor in to that?

1/1.6587=0.6029 arrows/second. Compare that with a barbarians attack speed with a greatsword: 1.6 attacks/second (worst case scenario). Compare it with a tempest ranger: 3.5 attacks/second (close to best case scenario).

Factor in the manyshot and it's a little more forgiving. 1/85.87=1.16 arrows/second. Still significantly behind the barbarian.

Does a single arcane archer arrow do more damage than a swing for a barbarian when counting glancing blows and all the other affects? (I guess no).

Is it correct to say that about half of the damage of an arcane archer is in that 20 seconds of manyshot over an 80 second period?

I love arcane archers, I have a ranger who uses a bow regularly, I've had a cleric arcane archer, I've submitted numerous builds to the forums incorporating the AA PrE. However, if the damage is really this low, can we really justify using a bow 24/7 in end game content? Shouldn't every AA only use a bow situationally?

Example:
An Arcane Archer should only use a bow if attempting to maximise their contribution to the party if:
1. Manyshot is off timer
2. 3 or more enemies are lined up for IPS (maybe 2 is ok, maybe it isn't)
3. Enemy is out of reach
4. It's too dangerous to be close to the enemy

That's it?

Your math is off. you forgot to take into account the 20 seconds of manyshot correctly. It would be 145.87 sec. So:

1/1.4587 = 0.6855 arrows per sec. Not a HUGE difference, but in the name of accuracy, had to correct it.

As to your other points, I use my pure Ranger 20 AA with capstone and air guard DT (almost constant haste in combat, whether or not a caster is there) for epics all the time just fine. I rarely switch to my epic CC cutlasses since I have lit2 and min2 longbows. 456 HP/737 SP with ship buffs. 42 dex with ship buffs. Raid buffed, my reflex save can easily go over 50. I can tank the epic conjoined abashi pretty easily (though casters take aggro from just about EVERYONE now).

I'd like to see the animation changed to be faster so maybe we can get the full benefit of our RoF and haste/other buffs as per P&P and DDO descriptions. It's not a huge deal to me. I love playing my AA and that's what matters. I was thinking of TR'ing into a HElf Rgr 6/Rog 14 AA for the additional trapmonkey skills and backstab damage (maybe even some UMD, but I still have to perfect it on my character planner). If you're looking for Max DPS, then pure ranged probably isn't the way you want to go, but that doesn't mean it's not a viable and useful build. More than once I've been the last one standing and managed to save everyone's butts. You don't HAVE to be Max DPS to be useful, even in epics.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Your math is off. you forgot to take into account the 20 seconds of manyshot correctly. It would be 145.87 sec. So:

1/1.4587 = 0.6855 arrows per sec. Not a HUGE difference, but in the name of accuracy, had to correct it.

As to your other points, I use my pure Ranger 20 AA with capstone and air guard DT (almost constant haste in combat, whether or not a caster is there) for epics all the time just fine. I rarely switch to my epic CC cutlasses since I have lit2 and min2 longbows. 456 HP/737 SP with ship buffs. 42 dex with ship buffs. Raid buffed, my reflex save can easily go over 50. I can tank the epic conjoined abashi pretty easily (though casters take aggro from just about EVERYONE now).

I'd like to see the animation changed to be faster so maybe we can get the full benefit of our RoF and haste/other buffs as per P&P and DDO descriptions. It's not a huge deal to me. I love playing my AA and that's what matters. I was thinking of TR'ing into a HElf Rgr 6/Rog 14 AA for the additional trapmonkey skills and backstab damage (maybe even some UMD, but I still have to perfect it on my character planner). If you're looking for Max DPS, then pure ranged probably isn't the way you want to go, but that doesn't mean it's not a viable and useful build. More than once I've been the last one standing and managed to save everyone's butts. You don't HAVE to be Max DPS to be useful, even in epics.

I totally agree about the gist of your post. What I was trying to get at is that I come across a fair few Arcane Archer's who insist that their ranged DPS while manyshot is on timer is better than their melee DPS. If my or your math is correct then that simply can't be the case (assuming vague equipment parity).

I'm well aware of all the utility that a pure ranger brings to the table, I love my ranger and when I'm not playing my ranger I look for other rangers first to nag for buffs as I prefer to leave the real casters their SPs.

However, in epics, presumably you want to contribute as much damage as possible in some situations. All of your utility and so forth doesn't mean much when there's a big guy who needs killing and he has a lot of HP. Then, max DPS is all that matters which would generally seem to imply switching to dual wielding when manyshot is on timer. The alternative is that the epic/elite end game quest won't be as smooth or as easy as it could have been or more resources will be used.

Or is your suggest that you do more damage with your litII than what you would with t3 brigand's cutlasses? (assuming manyshot on timer and against 0 DR - not a reality but a good starting point for comparison).

[kcru]

From what I've seen in this and other threads, along with almost 2 years of playing a pure 20 AA Ranger, I'm actually thinking there might be an absolute maximum speed for bow RoF that's based on the firing animation (similar to casting time/cooldowns for spells) and this is where the diminishing returns are really hitting everyone. The only thing that seems to overcome it is Manyshot, and that's only because it fires multiple arrows per animation. The haste-effects do boost the animation speed, but the basic bow-firing animation seems to take a long loooong time.
.

It has made me wonder if Quick Draw (or Rapid Reload) may speed up the animation time on long and short bows. Has anyone actually tried to verify that? I know that Quick Draw speeds up some operations that aren't explicitely mentioned.

[BananaHat]

So, 85.87 seconds to shoot 100 arrows as a best case scenario. Presumably the first 20 seconds is with manyshot so in fact accounts for 80 seconds of regular shooting (with 4 arrows/shot). So it would be 165.87 seconds to shoot 100 arrows without manyshot? 1 arrow every 1.6587 seconds?

Wait, how does reload time factor in to that?

1/1.6587=0.6029 arrows/second. Compare that with a barbarians attack speed with a greatsword: 1.6 attacks/second (worst case scenario). Compare it with a tempest ranger: 3.5 attacks/second (close to best case scenario).

Factor in the manyshot and it's a little more forgiving. 1/85.87=1.16 arrows/second. Still significantly behind the barbarian.

Does a single arcane archer arrow do more damage than a swing for a barbarian when counting glancing blows and all the other affects? (I guess no).

Is it correct to say that about half of the damage of an arcane archer is in that 20 seconds of manyshot over an 80 second period?

I love arcane archers, I have a ranger who uses a bow regularly, I've had a cleric arcane archer, I've submitted numerous builds to the forums incorporating the AA PrE. However, if the damage is really this low, can we really justify using a bow 24/7 in end game content? Shouldn't every AA only use a bow situationally?

Example:
An Arcane Archer should only use a bow if attempting to maximise their contribution to the party if:
1. Manyshot is off timer
2. 3 or more enemies are lined up for IPS (maybe 2 is ok, maybe it isn't)
3. Enemy is out of reach
4. It's too dangerous to be close to the enemy

That's it?

The test is not with manyshot going. 100 shots (with or without manyshot) are fired in the 85.87 seconds. Your second point is correct, it ends up being about 1.15 shots/second whether or not manyshot is going. That shot will contain 4 arrows if manyshot is going.

With manyshot going, that means it is roughly 4.6 arrows/second.

Manyshot vs. tempest means you need 3.5/4.6 = ~76% of the tempest's damage per swing to match during manyshot.
Normal vs. tempest means you need 3.5/1.15 = ~304% of the tempest's damage per swing to match during normal shots.

Manyshot vs. barb means you need 1.6/4.6 = ~35% of the barb's damage per swing to match during manyshot.
Normal vs. barb means you need 1.6/1.15 = ~139% of the barb's damage per swing to match during normal shots.


This is probably why it isn't too hard to pull aggro during manyshot and why ranged damage is so sad without it.

[BananaHat]

Some quick testing: lvl 20 ranger firing 100 arrows

Capstone/Haste: 86.6 seconds
Capstone/Quiver/AA ToD set/Haste: 87 seconds
Capstone/Quiver/AA ToD set: 88.4 seconds
Capstone/Quiver/DWS ToD set/Haste: 86.3 seconds
Capstone/Quiver/DWS ToD set: 91.8 seconds

[maddmatt70]

Some quick testing: lvl 20 ranger firing 100 arrows

Capstone/Haste: 86.6 seconds
Capstone/Quiver/AA ToD set/Haste: 87 seconds
Capstone/Quiver/AA ToD set: 88.4 seconds
Capstone/Quiver/DWS ToD set/Haste: 86.3 seconds
Capstone/Quiver/DWS ToD set: 91.8 seconds

Yes best tod set for a pure ranger is the shintao set. The quiver is a glorified arrow holder...

[BananaHat]

Tell that to my wife and the 22 Abbot runs it took to get the quiver (with 4 lost rolls to non-archers and obviously not on the 20th list). It does have a benefit when she duos with my FvS as it makes chugging haste pots less desirable since the speed increase is negligible.

Maybe if they actually put the "3-tier" bonus for AA in, it will be comparable to shintao. They have all the way up to a level 18 ability but not 3 tiers. Also, the devs should really up a lot of sets to the level of shintao and just finish what they start. It is odd to have such a disconnect with finishing prestige lines (in general) and ToD sets. For a given prestige line, the ToD set of the same should be most desirable for those slots.