Why barbs make very good tanks and how to "fix it"

[noinfo]

Why barbs make very good tanks and how to "fix it"

I am going to break this wall of text up into parts so if you are going to reply, please wait till last post.


This post is directly related to tanking builds, ac at higher levels and variation within different modes, casual, normal, hard, elite and epic.

First this is not a request to nerf Barberians, they are the premier sustained dps build.

It is a look at why Barberians are often the choice for tanking elite bosses.

[noinfo]

On normal it is common place for an ac tank (PJ or Fullplated) to deal with most bosses (yeah barberians etc can do it as well) Usually because the resources used are far less than the constant healing of the barberian.

Against Normal Bosses

AC tank S/B
1. Low DPS (relative)
2. Not being hit much or at all
3. Pretty good HP
4. No real variation in damage as no crits

AC tank PJ dual weilding
1. Good DPS
2. Not being hit much or at all
3. Usually Lower HP
4. No real variation in damage as no crits

1. Very high dps
2. They are being hit anyway (and have been since level 6)
3. Have a larger HP buffer to work with
4. No real variation in damage as no crits

[noinfo]

On Elite this tends to change with increasing difficulty level as benefits from ac get significantly reduced and damage mitigation far less. It becomes more

viable and prefered in some instances to have the barberian in there, because:


AC tank S/B
1. Low DPS (relative)
2. Being hit far more often
3. Pretty good HP but as being hit more often smaller buffer
4. No real variation in damage as no crits

AC tank PJ dual weilding
1. Good DPS
2. Probably being hit as much as the S/B with variation
3. Usually Lower HP makes it a bit tighter to work with
4. No real variation in damage as no crits

1. Very high dps
2. They are being hit anyway (and have been since level 6)
3. Have a larger HP buffer to work with
4. No real variation in damage as no crits

[noinfo]

As can be seen it is more viable for the barberian to be tanking against elite bosses (Not claiming other cannot). This really should be the opposite way

around in my opinion and since the design of 2 of the PRE are around specific Tanking Builds it is contrary to the intent of the game (IMO).

The harder more trained mobs/bosses should have a much harder time against a trained tank, they don't, this is due to the nature of scaling in the game.

Elite Mobes have: Higher to hit bonuses (by a lot), Hit harder, Have more hp, Have more Ac but Do NOT have a chance to burst more damage (crit).

Current solution is obvious (ask Shade) Hit them with more dps kill them faster etc etc.

[noinfo]

My proposed solution is to work around in those 4 areas to provide a more ballanced scaling to provide

1. More ballanced to hit vs ac
2. More effective tanks
3. Difference between Hi ac S/B vs Hi ac 2 weapon fighters
4. A reason for people to pick up a shield on the odd occasion, have it matter

The solution I believe revolves around Criticals and Fortification.

After (normally) level 11 it is simply no longer an issue on normal through to elite and epic. This mechanic results in mobs needing to do higher base damage and often overly inflated to hit bonuses.

By reintroducing the possiblity of criticals both the massive boost in base damage and to hit bonuses could be reduced (the to hit bonuses could also include bonuses to confirm)

This can be further expanded on by having it scale based on the difficulty and type of armour/shield being worn. More people using a shield means less dps which means that mob hp has a possiblity of being scaled down some.

[noinfo]

In theory how this may work in elite

AC tank S/B
1. Low DPS (relative)
2. Being hit far fewer times then in past due to lower to hit bonuses
3. Pretty good HP acts as a good buffer
4. Fewer variation in damage as fewer crits

AC tank PJ dual weilding
1. Good DPS
2. Being hit far fewer times then in past due to lower to hit bonuses
3. Usually Lower HP but usually ok except for 4
4. Hi variation in damage as crits are a real possiblitiy due to no armour and no shield

1. Very high dps
2. They are being hit anyway (and have been since level 6)
3. Have a larger HP buffer to work with and normal damage has been reduced so may find normal hits nothing much to worry about
4. Hi variation in damage as crits are a real possiblity due to no shield (may be wearing actual armour instead of robes etc for a change)
*** For barberians etc the overall damage should be similar but the possiblity of getting 2 heavy boss crits in a row should mean the actual tanks with the better fortification would be more desirable.

[noinfo]

Standard fortification item bonuses

+25% for Heavy armour types (based on WF natural bonus)
+15% for Medium armour types
+10% for Light armour types

(initial thoughts only)

+25% for shield of any type (you get reduced dps anyway) +10% shield blocking and with each level of sheild mastery a bonus +5%


A basic S/B would have 150% fortification base to be modified by difficulty level

Casual -0%
Normal -10%
Hard -25%
Elite -50%
Epic -75%

With corresponding bonues to confirm.

On elite a S/B with the same ac as the PJ 2wf will get hit the same amount of time, but will not be crittable when hit, this makes S/B tanking the more stable alternative.


Thoughts?

[Lauraliane]

Might be too much of a complicated fix that would ripple in a lot of way.

They simply need to fix the way they scale the quests difficulty in hard and elite. They are scaling the wrong parameters in a too big factor.

But that's because it is the most easy and cost efficient way for them to do it, without having to tailor every difficulty for every quests by hand (which they should do, especially the elite one)
For example:

- Monsters using more powerful spell (they are already doing this and that's good)
- Monsters AI being "smarter", less impacted by aggro/intimidate and stuff
- Different monsters
- More monster
- More traps

Basically the level design shall be tweaked intelligently

Instead they are simply artificially inflating some numbers to such height that we enter an "all or nothing" logic, which is the worst possible issue for game balance and design and exactly what's happening now with the AC.

[noinfo]

Might be too much of a complicated fix that would ripple in a lot of way.

They simply need to fix the way they scale the quests difficulty in hard and elite. They are scaling the wrong parameters in a too big factor.

But that's because it is the most easy and cost efficient way for them to do it, without having to tailor every difficulty for every quests by hand (which they should do, especially the elite one)
For example:

- Monsters using more powerful spell (they are already doing this and that's good)
- Monsters AI being "smarter", less impacted by aggro/intimidate and stuff
- Different monsters
- More monster
- More traps

Basically the level design shall be tweaked intelligently

Instead they are simply artificially inflating some numbers to such height that we enter an "all or nothing" logic, which is the worst possible issue for game balance and design and exactly what's happening now with the AC.

Unfortunately most of that stuff will be dps it fast and move on. More traps mean need a raging barb to get through it or res on the other side.

More intelligent AI in most games is really a nice dream and would be good but not likely to happen.

Not saying my suggestion would not need a lot of play testing and ballancing but would give those PRE the purpose they were DESIGNED for.

[toughguyjoe]

So lemme get this straight. your solution is Barbs become crittable?

[noinfo]

So lemme get this straight. your solution is Barbs become crittable?

What I am saying and not Barberians specifically (see post) is criticals being an option again. This must be ballanced by a reasonable drop in base damage to make the overall damage comparable. It is not a Barberians to be beaten into the dirt idea but to make the possiblity of not S/B heavy armour users less predictable in the damage they will take in consecutive hits.

[epochofcrepuscule]

So lemme get this straight. your solution is Barbs become crittable?

I am going to go with your assessment... it still looked like a wall of text... just with borders.

If barbs became crittable, that large HP buffer as you cal it, would be meaningless. Do you even know how much damage elite raid bosses crit for?

[noinfo]

I am going to go with your assessment... it still looked like a wall of text... just with borders.

If barbs became crittable, that large HP buffer as you cal it, would be meaningless. Do you even know how much damage elite raid bosses crit for?

Please go with your gut on this one. If you can't read the whole thing, please move on.

[platonicx]

When i first saw fortification items i was like hey thats overpowered. And i still think so. Any pnp base for this bonus?The idea of shields and hevier armors giving fortification makes much more sense. I mean my rogue can tank naked. ***.

[Aaxeyu]

Tripple the damage mobs deal. That way AC tanks in one form or another would be required.

[toughguyjoe]

What I am saying and not Barberians specifically (see post) is criticals being an option again. This must be ballanced by a reasonable drop in base damage to make the overall damage comparable. It is not a Barberians to be beaten into the dirt idea but to make the possiblity of not S/B heavy armour users less predictable in the damage they will take in consecutive hits.

The Problem here is some people are making "Tanks"

The idea of a "Tank" is from a compeltely different style of MMO than this one.

In DDO we use more of a "Raid Boss Holder" and not so much of a "Tank" We treat trash like just that, Trash.

In other MMO's trash mobs are held by the "Tank" because only certain Classes/Specs have decent Damage Mitigation.

[Aaxeyu]

In other MMO's trash mobs are held by the "Tank" because only certain Classes/Specs have decent Damage Mitigation.

Also because there is no real need for damage mitigation in DDO. No one can be critted, and monsters doesn't deal enough damage per attack.

[noinfo]

Tripple the damage mobs deal. That way AC tanks in one form or another would be required.

The goal isn't to punish barberians or low ac builds but to bring back variation in damage and give the role of tank back to those who have PRE especially for it.

[noinfo]

Also because there is no real need for damage mitigation in DDO. No one can be critted, ....

Exactly

[noinfo]

The Problem here is some people are making "Tanks"

The idea of a "Tank" is from a compeltely different style of MMO than this one.

In DDO we use more of a "Raid Boss Holder" and not so much of a "Tank" We treat trash like just that, Trash.

In other MMO's trash mobs are held by the "Tank" because only certain Classes/Specs have decent Damage Mitigation.

Actually while the current trend (and it has been around for a while now) is Raid boss holder that has become the case as a result of the reasons in the above post. No one gets critted. Now no one likes to get critted either however its that additional unpredicatablity that adds something beyond the I can take x number of hits mentality, or the I can only get hit on a 20 mentality.

While the original PnP does not specifically have tanking due to different dynamics in these situations it would be the S/B Fighter or Pally at the front.

There are 2 PRE specifically designed to tank, that is there purpose, however given the current implementation of no crits for anyone they are often overlooked for brute force mentality.