Why barbs make very good tanks and how to "fix it"

[noinfo]

Why barbs make very good tanks and how to "fix it"

I am going to break this wall of text up into parts so if you are going to reply, please wait till last post.


This post is directly related to tanking builds, ac at higher levels and variation within different modes, casual, normal, hard, elite and epic.

First this is not a request to nerf Barberians, they are the premier sustained dps build.

It is a look at why Barberians are often the choice for tanking elite bosses.

[noinfo]

On normal it is common place for an ac tank (PJ or Fullplated) to deal with most bosses (yeah barberians etc can do it as well) Usually because the resources used are far less than the constant healing of the barberian.

Against Normal Bosses

AC tank S/B
1. Low DPS (relative)
2. Not being hit much or at all
3. Pretty good HP
4. No real variation in damage as no crits

AC tank PJ dual weilding
1. Good DPS
2. Not being hit much or at all
3. Usually Lower HP
4. No real variation in damage as no crits

1. Very high dps
2. They are being hit anyway (and have been since level 6)
3. Have a larger HP buffer to work with
4. No real variation in damage as no crits

[noinfo]

On Elite this tends to change with increasing difficulty level as benefits from ac get significantly reduced and damage mitigation far less. It becomes more

viable and prefered in some instances to have the barberian in there, because:


AC tank S/B
1. Low DPS (relative)
2. Being hit far more often
3. Pretty good HP but as being hit more often smaller buffer
4. No real variation in damage as no crits

AC tank PJ dual weilding
1. Good DPS
2. Probably being hit as much as the S/B with variation
3. Usually Lower HP makes it a bit tighter to work with
4. No real variation in damage as no crits

1. Very high dps
2. They are being hit anyway (and have been since level 6)
3. Have a larger HP buffer to work with
4. No real variation in damage as no crits

[noinfo]

As can be seen it is more viable for the barberian to be tanking against elite bosses (Not claiming other cannot). This really should be the opposite way

around in my opinion and since the design of 2 of the PRE are around specific Tanking Builds it is contrary to the intent of the game (IMO).

The harder more trained mobs/bosses should have a much harder time against a trained tank, they don't, this is due to the nature of scaling in the game.

Elite Mobes have: Higher to hit bonuses (by a lot), Hit harder, Have more hp, Have more Ac but Do NOT have a chance to burst more damage (crit).

Current solution is obvious (ask Shade) Hit them with more dps kill them faster etc etc.

[noinfo]

My proposed solution is to work around in those 4 areas to provide a more ballanced scaling to provide

1. More ballanced to hit vs ac
2. More effective tanks
3. Difference between Hi ac S/B vs Hi ac 2 weapon fighters
4. A reason for people to pick up a shield on the odd occasion, have it matter

The solution I believe revolves around Criticals and Fortification.

After (normally) level 11 it is simply no longer an issue on normal through to elite and epic. This mechanic results in mobs needing to do higher base damage and often overly inflated to hit bonuses.

By reintroducing the possiblity of criticals both the massive boost in base damage and to hit bonuses could be reduced (the to hit bonuses could also include bonuses to confirm)

This can be further expanded on by having it scale based on the difficulty and type of armour/shield being worn. More people using a shield means less dps which means that mob hp has a possiblity of being scaled down some.

[noinfo]

In theory how this may work in elite

AC tank S/B
1. Low DPS (relative)
2. Being hit far fewer times then in past due to lower to hit bonuses
3. Pretty good HP acts as a good buffer
4. Fewer variation in damage as fewer crits

AC tank PJ dual weilding
1. Good DPS
2. Being hit far fewer times then in past due to lower to hit bonuses
3. Usually Lower HP but usually ok except for 4
4. Hi variation in damage as crits are a real possiblitiy due to no armour and no shield

1. Very high dps
2. They are being hit anyway (and have been since level 6)
3. Have a larger HP buffer to work with and normal damage has been reduced so may find normal hits nothing much to worry about
4. Hi variation in damage as crits are a real possiblity due to no shield (may be wearing actual armour instead of robes etc for a change)
*** For barberians etc the overall damage should be similar but the possiblity of getting 2 heavy boss crits in a row should mean the actual tanks with the better fortification would be more desirable.

[Lauraliane]

Might be too much of a complicated fix that would ripple in a lot of way.

They simply need to fix the way they scale the quests difficulty in hard and elite. They are scaling the wrong parameters in a too big factor.

But that's because it is the most easy and cost efficient way for them to do it, without having to tailor every difficulty for every quests by hand (which they should do, especially the elite one)
For example:

- Monsters using more powerful spell (they are already doing this and that's good)
- Monsters AI being "smarter", less impacted by aggro/intimidate and stuff
- Different monsters
- More monster
- More traps

Basically the level design shall be tweaked intelligently

Instead they are simply artificially inflating some numbers to such height that we enter an "all or nothing" logic, which is the worst possible issue for game balance and design and exactly what's happening now with the AC.

[noinfo]

Might be too much of a complicated fix that would ripple in a lot of way.

They simply need to fix the way they scale the quests difficulty in hard and elite. They are scaling the wrong parameters in a too big factor.

But that's because it is the most easy and cost efficient way for them to do it, without having to tailor every difficulty for every quests by hand (which they should do, especially the elite one)
For example:

- Monsters using more powerful spell (they are already doing this and that's good)
- Monsters AI being "smarter", less impacted by aggro/intimidate and stuff
- Different monsters
- More monster
- More traps

Basically the level design shall be tweaked intelligently

Instead they are simply artificially inflating some numbers to such height that we enter an "all or nothing" logic, which is the worst possible issue for game balance and design and exactly what's happening now with the AC.

Unfortunately most of that stuff will be dps it fast and move on. More traps mean need a raging barb to get through it or res on the other side.

More intelligent AI in most games is really a nice dream and would be good but not likely to happen.

Not saying my suggestion would not need a lot of play testing and ballancing but would give those PRE the purpose they were DESIGNED for.

[Svetelana]

Why barbs make very good tanks and how to "fix it"

I am going to break this wall of text up into parts so if you are going to reply, please wait till last post.


This post is directly related to tanking builds, ac at higher levels and variation within different modes, casual, normal, hard, elite and epic.

First this is not a request to nerf Barberians, they are the premier sustained dps build.

It is a look at why Barberians are often the choice for tanking elite bosses.

Don't Barberians just cut hair? What's all this DPS/AC stuff?

[stopdying]

Why not put DR on armor (like blocking DR on shields) and have it stack with shields? That way dex AC characters dodge attacks, barbs ignore damage because of their HP pool, and tanks could absorb damage due to stacking DR from heavy armor and shields.

[Noctus]

Why not put DR on armor (like blocking DR on shields) and have it stack with shields? That way dex AC characters dodge attacks, barbs ignore damage because of their HP pool, and tanks could absorb damage due to stacking DR from heavy armor and shields.

I concure with this proposal. It would make heavy armor a viable choice again ( if the gained DR is "just right") while not needing a complete overhaul and then re-balancing of the fortification and thus damage-dealing of monsters system.

[Razcar]

Don't Barberians just cut hair? What's all this DPS/AC stuff?

Well, in this bad economy you got to be a bit flexible.

[noinfo]

Well, in this bad economy you got to be a bit flexible.

But at least you know he will be back :-p.